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Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

ozso

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It was a period of about 5 years of study. I'm not the originator of the connection of 666 to Solomon but I don't think anybody has ever said it exactly like I've said it. I've seen some people say that it could be us. But never specifically identify the church specifically the Roman Catholic Church. In this method.


I grew up at seventh-day Adventist and I'm familiar with the methods that they use. Because I started to be a pastor in that organization. About 20 years ago I started having problems with Ellen White and the doctrines of the church so I decided to be study the issue and go wherever the evidence lead me. And this is where it led me. Conclusion I think the seventh-day Adventist Church has drawn is correct the way they get there is not. They take shortcuts and make major assumptions. Sometimes they are wrong in their assumptions and their shortcuts. That's why I produced this study
It contains claims that need citation. Also I see incorrect conclusions. Like: "d. They teach poverty as a virtue and the highest form of spirituality. Rather then God wanting to prosper us "be Fruitful and Multiply". Be fruitful and multiply means to procreate, rather than to acquire wealth. What you concluded sounds like a prosperity movement claim.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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It contains claims that need citation. Also I see incorrect conclusions. Like: "d. They teach poverty as a virtue and the highest form of spirituality. Rather then God wanting to prosper us "be Fruitful and Multiply". Be fruitful and multiply means to procreate, rather than to acquire wealth. What you concluded sounds like a prosperity movement claim.
No, it means to be fulfilled and become all that you were meant to be. That is what prosperity means. Wealth may be part of it but it's not all of it. A healthy balanced life is what God wants for us. But not poverty. Shows you don't understand what prosperity is according to the Scriptures.

As far as citations what do you want cited.

I am also going to go back and add a couple things to the original post I'll keep you posted. I think they will give more weight to the things that I am saying. It's more detail.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Never foods that were unclean to clean.
Noah was allowed to eat anything that moved and so was everyone else between the time Noah landed the ark after the flood all the way up until God gave the dietary laws at Mt Sinai.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Somebody was eating those pigs, and in the chain of events from field to dinner table, there almost certainly had to be a marketplace involved. So there were unclean things in the marketplace, seems reasonable :thumbsup:

Also, there were parts of clean animals that weren't to be eaten. So unless the gentiles were very careful to follow the rules in Leviticus, that was another way that there were unclean things at the market.

At the end of Leviticus 3
“‘It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that you shall eat neither fat nor blood.’”
Lol if they cared at all about the Levitican laws they wouldn’t have been making sacrifices to idols to begin with.
 
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Leaf473

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Not from the scriptures no, just several historical websites.

Lol if they cared at all about the Levitican laws they wouldn’t have been making sacrifices to idols to begin with.
I hear that. And I agree that there's no Bible text that states that some things sold in the marketplace or offered to guests for dinner were unclean. But that makes a lot of sense to me, while going from a single incident where a pagan priest offers oxen to the conclusion that the gentiles were only sacrificing clean animals in a clean way, doesn't make sense to me.

Plus Leviticus is complicated
"If part of their carcass falls on any sowing seed which is to be sown, it is clean. 38 But if water is put on the seed, and part of their carcass falls on it, it is unclean to you."
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Noah was allowed to eat anything that moved and so was everyone else between the time Noah landed the ark after the flood all the way up until God gave the dietary laws at Mt Sinai.
Not so, Noah was instructed to take 7 clean animals per kind and 2 unclean per kind, so obviously there were animals that are clean to eat and those that are unclean. The scripture you’re missing is where it says unclean foods are now deemed for eating. There is never in scripture that says once God deemed foods unclean and an abomination that He later said were clean.

The Lord said to Noah, … ‘take with you seven each of every clean animal … two each of animals that are unclean’ ” (Genesis 7:1- 2).

When Jesus comes He makes it clear eating foods He deems unclean is still unclean and an abomination. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 66:17 This is the final word. We are free to take the risk but if there is even a shred of doubt, doesn’t seem worth it especially since God gave us plenty of clean foods for eating, not really missing out on anything. God wants our minds heathy and our bodies healthy, our bodies are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I hear that. And I agree that there's no Bible text that states that some things sold in the marketplace or offered to guests for dinner were unclean. But that makes a lot of sense to me, while going from a single incident where a pagan priest offers oxen to the conclusion that the gentiles were only sacrificing clean animals in a clean way, doesn't make sense to me.

Plus Leviticus is complicated
"If part of their carcass falls on any sowing seed which is to be sown, it is clean. 38 But if water is put on the seed, and part of their carcass falls on it, it is unclean to you."
Yes it’s a blatant misuse of the scriptures. That verse in Acts 14 was only intended to record that specific event not to formulate a doctrine on how pagans performed sacrifices to idols.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not so, Noah was instructed to take 7 clean animals per kind and 2 unclean per kind, so obviously there were animals that are clean to eat and those that are unclean. The scripture you’re missing is where it says unclean foods are now deemed for eating. There is never in scripture that says once God deemed foods unclean and an abomination that He later said were clean.

The Lord said to Noah, … ‘take with you seven each of every clean animal … two each of animals that are unclean’ ” (Genesis 7:1- 2).

When Jesus comes He makes it clear eating foods He deems unclean is still unclean and an abomination. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 66:17 This is the final word. We are free to take the risk but if there is even a shred of doubt, doesn’t seem worth it especially since God gave us plenty of clean foods for eating, not really missing out on anything. God wants our minds heathy and our bodies healthy, our bodies are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit.
Let me explain it AGAIN. Genesis was written by Moses who knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. So it’s not entirely implausible that God told Moses that He told Noah to bring 7 of each clean animal instead of listing each animal that Noah was to bring 7 of. God could’ve very well told Noah bring 7 sheep, bring 7 oxen, bring 7 goats, bring 7 cows, bring 7 deer, etc, etc, etc, etc, and Instead of going thru the entire list that He gave Noah it was just much simpler to say that He told Noah to bring 7 of each of the clean animals. The fact is that Noah was told that he could eat ANYTHING THAT MOVED. PERIOD, there were no stipulations other than he could not eat it with its blood. Why would God include that one stipulation and not the rest of the dietary law stipulations?

And I’m not missing the scripture that says we can eat unclean foods you’re just ignoring it. EAT ANYTHING THAT IS BROUGHT BEFORE YOU WITHOUT QUESTION. That’s scripture right there proving you wrong and just like what God told Noah you’re twisting it into something that WAS NOT WRITTEN. Traditions of man indeed.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Let me explain it AGAIN. Genesis was written by Moses who knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. So it’s not entirely implausible that God told Moses that He told Noah to bring 7 of each clean animal instead of listing each animal that Noah was to bring 7 of. God could’ve very well told Noah bring 7 sheep, bring 7 oxen, bring 7 goats, bring 7 cows, bring 7 deer, etc, etc, etc, etc, and Instead of going thru the entire list that He gave Noah it was just much simpler to say that He told Noah to bring 7 of each of the clean animals. The fact is that Noah was told that he could eat ANYTHING THAT MOVED. PERIOD, there were no stipulations other than he could not eat it with its blood. Why would God include that one stipulation and not the rest of the dietary law stipulations?

And I’m not missing the scripture that says we can eat unclean foods you’re just ignoring it. EAT ANYTHING THAT IS BROUGHT BEFORE YOU WITHOUT QUESTION. That’s scripture right there proving you wrong and just like what God told Noah you’re twisting it into something that WAS NOT WRITTEN. Traditions of man indeed.
You don’t have to explain and I know who Genesis was written by, but appreciate the information. We have to look at context, it does not say anything that moved that is unclean. Noah knew what was clean versus unclean and God made that abundantly clear. If you don’t want to head the warning in scripture that’s your choice, but considering what’s at risk, not something I am comfortable with, there is an abundance of good, clean foods to eat that God gave us, God is good. Peter knew which foods were unclean and this is long after the cross Acts 10:14 so nothing changed and God gives His people warnings in hopes we will believe and listen, but sadly not everyone does Isaiah 66:17
 
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Adventist Dissident

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1.
A. Peter is Given the keys. Matt. 16:19 Very clear Jesus is speaking Only to Peter Here. He will later Give Keys to the other disciples. Matt.18:18 Keys are authority, decision making power. Isa. 22:22 and can be passed down to other people. Making him the Head of the Church and the Official Representative of God on Earth.
B. Peter preaches at Pentecost and a delegation from Rome is there. The Roman delegation takes the gospel back to Rome and plants a church at which Priscilla and Aquila are members. When the Jews riot over "Crestus" and burn down the Jewish section of the city all the Jews are kicked out for about 10 years and that includes Priscila and Aquila. They go to Corinth Paul finds them there and they make their way to Ephesus. There they help Paul establish the church in Ephesus. Then they return to Rome. Paul follows later.

C. Peter makes its way to Rome. Where he preaches a series of sermons that become The book of Mark. He is executed there but before he is executed he and Paul choose a successor Linus.


2. Solomon (Man) is Called the "Son of God" the official Representative of God on earth, In the O.T.
a. Solomon is promised blessing for choosing wisdom over revenge and greed.
b. Solomon is involved in trade (buying & selling) in which he receives 666 (1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13) talents of Gold in tribute each year.
c. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by making an alliance with the King of Egypt (Worldly Government)
d. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by marrying foreign wives and worshiping God in a wrong way.
e. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by enslaving and abusing God's people
3. Beast Rev 13.18 Identified with 666. The beast is identified with Solomon, Gods Representative.
4. God's Representative is the Church the Holder of the Keys. The Roman Catholic Church.
Did the Roman Catholic Church while in a Church/State Alliance
a. misrepresent God in any way? Yes
b. increase it wealth by slave trade Yes.
c. enslave people? Yes
d. did they change God's law according to Daniel 7? yes they got rid of the command against Idols and they claim to have changed the holiness of the Sabbath to Sunday by Sylvester I at the time of Constantine. NOTE . The claim that the Lord's day is pagan is wrong. The claim that the Lord's Day Replaced the Sabbath is wrong. The Lord's day was an additional festival to the Sabbath worship in the Synagogue. They did both. It is based on Palm Sunday, Easter Sunday and Pentacost Sunday. The Lord's day was created by Paul, Apollos, Prycilia & Aquilla in Ephesus in order stop conflict with the Jews, teach Christ and create a separate identity from the Synagogue so outsiders could tell the difference between Jew and Christian.

5 . Did they Misrepresent God to the people.
a. Yes they command people to not marry as the highest form of dedication to God. Nuns and Priest. The proper representation of God is in relationships is the Mother/Father model the 'Image of God on Earth.
b. They teach God will burn you and torture you forever if you don't accept him, instead of cremation. Malachi 4:3
c. They teach Evolution rather then Creation
d. They teach poverty as a virtue and the highest form of spirituality. Rather then God wanting to prosper us "be Fruitful and Multiply".
e. They teach the prophecy are either in the past or in the future but not on going. Changing the Times (prophecy) Daniel 7

6. When did Sunday usurp the Sabbath? When they became allied with the State at the time of Constantine.
7. When was the Sabbath banned? At the time of the Pagan resurgence by Julian the Apostate. The church is now allied with the government and in order to avoid state persecution of Christians by the pagan state they hid out in the synagogue. That is why the Sabbath was banned. for political reason not spiritual reasons.

So yes Sunday can be the Mark of the Beast if it is associated with a wrong political and theological adjenda. 666 in the OT is only connected to God's People 1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13, Ezra 2:13. So it can only be God's people.
Is anybody going to comment on this or did I do such a good job that no one can challenge this? Pavel???? Anyone.
 
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Leaf473

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Is anybody going to comment on this or did I do such a good job that no one can challenge this? Pavel???? Anyone.
Hi AV, I haven't seen Pavel around for a long time. I'll be glad to take a look at it soon :heart:
 
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Leaf473

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1.
A. Peter is Given the keys. Matt. 16:19 Very clear Jesus is speaking Only to Peter Here. He will later Give Keys to the other disciples. Matt.18:18 Keys are authority, decision making power. Isa. 22:22 and can be passed down to other people. Making him the Head of the Church and the Official Representative of God on Earth.
B. Peter preaches at Pentecost and a delegation from Rome is there. The Roman delegation takes the gospel back to Rome and plants a church at which Priscilla and Aquila are members. When the Jews riot over "Crestus" and burn down the Jewish section of the city all the Jews are kicked out for about 10 years and that includes Priscila and Aquila. They go to Corinth Paul finds them there and they make their way to Ephesus. There they help Paul establish the church in Ephesus. Then they return to Rome. Paul follows later.

C. Peter makes its way to Rome. Where he preaches a series of sermons that become The book of Mark. He is executed there but before he is executed he and Paul choose a successor Linus.


2. Solomon (Man) is Called the "Son of God" the official Representative of God on earth, In the O.T.
a. Solomon is promised blessing for choosing wisdom over revenge and greed.
b. Solomon is involved in trade (buying & selling) in which he receives 666 (1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13) talents of Gold in tribute each year.
c. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by making an alliance with the King of Egypt (Worldly Government)
d. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by marrying foreign wives and worshiping God in a wrong way.
e. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by enslaving and abusing God's people
3. Beast Rev 13.18 Identified with 666. The beast is identified with Solomon, Gods Representative.
4. God's Representative is the Church the Holder of the Keys. The Roman Catholic Church.
Did the Roman Catholic Church while in a Church/State Alliance
a. misrepresent God in any way? Yes
b. increase it wealth by slave trade Yes.
c. enslave people? Yes
d. did they change God's law according to Daniel 7? yes they got rid of the command against Idols and they claim to have changed the holiness of the Sabbath to Sunday by Sylvester I at the time of Constantine. NOTE . The claim that the Lord's day is pagan is wrong. The claim that the Lord's Day Replaced the Sabbath is wrong. The Lord's day was an additional festival to the Sabbath worship in the Synagogue. They did both. It is based on Palm Sunday, Easter Sunday and Pentacost Sunday. The Lord's day was created by Paul, Apollos, Prycilia & Aquilla in Ephesus in order stop conflict with the Jews, teach Christ and create a separate identity from the Synagogue so outsiders could tell the difference between Jew and Christian.

5 . Did they Misrepresent God to the people.
a. Yes they command people to not marry as the highest form of dedication to God. Nuns and Priest. The proper representation of God is in relationships is the Mother/Father model the 'Image of God on Earth.
b. They teach God will burn you and torture you forever if you don't accept him, instead of cremation. Malachi 4:3
c. They teach Evolution rather then Creation
d. They teach poverty as a virtue and the highest form of spirituality. Rather then God wanting to prosper us "be Fruitful and Multiply".
e. They teach the prophecy are either in the past or in the future but not on going. Changing the Times (prophecy) Daniel 7

6. When did Sunday usurp the Sabbath? When they became allied with the State at the time of Constantine.
7. When was the Sabbath banned? At the time of the Pagan resurgence by Julian the Apostate. The church is now allied with the government and in order to avoid state persecution of Christians by the pagan state they hid out in the synagogue. That is why the Sabbath was banned. for political reason not spiritual reasons.

So yes Sunday can be the Mark of the Beast if it is associated with a wrong political and theological adjenda. 666 in the OT is only connected to God's People 1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13, Ezra 2:13. So it can only be God's people.
Well, the first place we might not be seeing things the same way is that when Peter is given the keys to the kingdom, Jesus also says that he will build his church and the Gates of hell will not prevail against it. But... If the church as a whole became corrupted, then it looks to me very much like the gates of hell did prevail.
 
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ozso

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You don’t have to explain and I know who Genesis was written by, but appreciate the information. We have to look at context, it does not say anything that moved that is unclean. Noah knew what was clean versus unclean and God made that abundantly clear. If you don’t want to head the warning in scripture that’s your choice, but considering what’s at risk, not something I am comfortable with, there is an abundance of good, clean foods to eat that God gave us, God is good. Peter knew which foods were unclean and this is long after the cross Acts 10:14 so nothing changed and God gives His people warnings in hopes we will believe and listen, but sadly not everyone does Isaiah 66:17
You mean the foods that God told Peter to eat in Acts 10? Now I know that vision was about entering the house of a gentile. But along with that would be the foods that Cornelius and other gentiles would be serving. Remember it's not just the animal itself that's clean or unclean, but all the stipulations regarding the preparation, that if not followed make even clean animals unclean. So it seems highly likely Peter was being served and eating unclean animal flesh according to Levitical law - after Peter was told, “Do not call anything unclean that God has made clean.” Acts 10:15
 
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HIM

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About clean and unclean foods, an interesting thing is that food which is otherwise clean can become unclean.

Leviticus 11
All food which may be eaten which is soaked in water shall be unclean.
That is a terrible translation. Soaked is not implied. It is misleading. And the verse needs to be understood within the context of the passages in which it is in. With that said, what kind of water Leaf?
 
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ozso

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Well, the first place we might not be seeing things the same way is that when Peter is given the keys to the kingdom, Jesus also says that he will build his church and the Gates of hell will not prevail against it. But... If the church as a whole became corrupted, then it looks to me very much like the gates of hell did prevail.
Well all of the church except for the latter day remnant that obeyed God by keeping the sabbath (Revelation 12:17).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well, the first place we might not be seeing things the same way is that when Peter is given the keys to the kingdom, Jesus also says that he will build his church and the Gates of hell will not prevail against it. But... If the church as a whole became corrupted, then it looks to me very much like the gates of hell did prevail.
The church as a whole didn’t become corrupt, only Rome did.
 
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