Thread to determine some basic tenets of Christianity

[FreedByte]

From what I have observed, there are two things that seem to separate Christians the most: polity and baptism.

Which polity is Apostolic? Congregationalist, Presbyterian, or Episcopal?

Is infant baptism Apostolic? If someone argues that it isn't, then when and how did it originate?

Resolving these two questions once and for all, though some of you might think it's impossible to try and resolve them, would bring us much closer to Christian unity, in my opinion.

 

[prov1810]

From what I have observed, there are two things that seem to separate Christians the most: polity and baptism.

Which polity is Apostolic? Congregationalist, Presbyterian, or Episcopal?

Is infant baptism Apostolic? If someone argues that it isn't, then when and how did it originate?

Resolving these two questions once and for all, though some of you might think it's impossible to try and resolve them, would bring us much closer to Christian unity, in my opinion.

We can have unity in the essentials and respectfully disagree on those two issues. Just remember that the Christian you disagree with is loved by Jesus, the one you love.

 

[All Souls]

From what I have observed, there are two things that seem to separate Christians the most: polity and baptism.

I would have thought it would be Mass, Eucharist, Holy Communion, Lord's Supper, Breaking of Bread...

But anyway, I am an episcopalian so my answers are pretty much known from that Plus, we ought to keep in mind the development of Christian doctrine, i.e. we are trying to be the Church today not the Church then.

 

[FreedByte]

We can have unity in the essentials and respectfully disagree on those two issues.

What if I have a completely different view on what the essentials are?

Besides, there is no true unity with big differences in doctrine.

Just remember that the Christian you disagree with is loved by Jesus, the one you love.

True

 

[FreedByte]

I would have thought it would be Mass, Eucharist, Holy Communion, Lord's Supper, Breaking of Bread...

You think the doctrine surrounding communion is the most divisive?

 

[All Souls]

You think the doctrine surrounding communion is the most divisive?

In my experience, yes.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Interesting thread - I wonder where it will go?

I would agree that Eucharist/communion beliefs are another major disagreement.

"How are we saved?" is a biggie too - but since you mentioned baptism, that is a big part of the division. But that seems very essential to the faith, no matter what else you think.

In having visited a dizzying array of churches recently - really I have to wonder how many people go to such different extremes in such a short time!?! - I can tell you there are certainly HUGE differences. However, what I do try to keep in mind is just what someone here said - even those that are most unlike me in their beliefs are seeking the same God, and as children of my Father - my brothers and sisters - I owe them love and compassion, even if I don't agree with some beliefs or the expressions of them. Truly, I see some good things in even the churches I most don't want to be in (or in the people there).

Subscribing ... interested to see where this will lead.

 

[FreedByte]

"How are we saved?" is a biggie too

True, but there have almost always been a variety of views on that, with healthy discussion within the church. If we can't agree on polity, however, then some will favor local churches that can be created independent while others will favor denominational association, while others will favor hierarchy. And with that it would be much more difficult for any dialogue about salvation to take place.

 

[~Anastasia~]

True, but there have almost always been a variety of views on that, with healthy discussion within the church. If we can't agree on polity, however, then some will favor local churches that can be created independent while others will favor denominational association, while others will favor hierarchy. And with that it would be much more difficult for any dialogue about salvation to take place.

"have almost always been ... "

Well, that's true today. Surely not in the beginning. So for me, I'd have to wonder where it crept in - these different beliefs of how we are saved?

And along the same lines, when did polity change?

But I don't want to direct your discussion - I'm still not sure what it is you want to get at?

Are you looking for the differences? Major points of agreement? Points of divergence? Causes of disagreements, or divergence?

Not that I have these answers ... just following along in interest.

 

[FreedByte]

"have almost always been ... "

Well, that's true today. Surely not in the beginning. So for me, I'd have to wonder where it crept in - these different beliefs of how we are saved?

Well the East has usually been more Resurrection-focused and the West has usually been more cross-focused, for one thing

And along the same lines, when did polity change?

A better question is, what was it like in the beginning?

But I don't want to direct your discussion - I'm still not sure what it is you want to get at?

Well, let's say you have two Christians, one who believes in credobaptism and the local church, and the other who believes in paedobaptism and episcopal hierarchy. To me, those two Christians should be able to use determine historically who is following Apostolic Christianity.

Are you looking for the differences? Major points of agreement? Points of divergence? Causes of disagreements, or divergence?

None of those, I'm looking for causes of lack of dialogue between groups and general disinterest in historical analysis of one's faith.

 

[All Souls]

Well, let's say you have two Christians, one who believes in credobaptism and the local church, and the other who believes in paedobaptism and episcopal hierarchy. To me, those two Christians should be able to use determine historically who is following Apostolic Christianity.

That is assuming the apostolic church is a model for us, a norm. As an episcopalian I would dispute such a view

 

[FreedByte]

That is assuming the apostolic church is a model for us, a norm. As an episcopalian I would dispute such a view

So if someone thought the Trinity wasn't a model for us, we should just get rid of it?

I really don't understand what you're saying here. Theology that was once orthodox can become unorthodox later?

 

[All Souls]

So if someone thought the Trinity wasn't a model for us, we should just get rid of it?

I'm not saying that, indeed the apostolic church did not have a developed doctrine of the Trinity, that came later. Which is sort of my point, there are legitimate developments, thus whether the apostolic church baptised infants or not does not determine whether we can.

 

[FreedByte]

I'm not saying that, indeed the apostolic church did not have a developed doctrine of the Trinity, that came later. Which is sort of my point, there are legitimate developments, thus whether the apostolic church baptised infants or not does not determine whether we can.

So if the apostolic church baptized infants, then well over a millenium later some radical reformers can say that we were doing it wrong the whole time?

 

[All Souls]

So if the apostolic church baptized infants, then well over a millenium later some radical reformers can say that we were doing it wrong the whole time?

They can say that, but they are to be evaluated by their theological justification not their appeal to history.

 

[FreedByte]

They can say that, but they are to be evaluated by their theological justification not their appeal to history.

Well if history cannot be used to justify theology then how do you suggest that we interpret Scripture?

 

[All Souls]

Well if history cannot be used to justify theology then how do you suggest that we interpret Scripture?

Do you have a specific example in mind?

 

[FreedByte]

Do you have a specific example in mind?

Pretty much everything, really

Paedobaptism and credobaptism are both valid results of the sola scriptura idea, as is real presence and sacramentarianism, etc etc etc

 

[All Souls]

Paedobaptism and credobaptism are both valid results of the sola scriptura idea

Surely this depends who you ask?

 

[FreedByte]

Surely this depends who you ask?

Yep, that's the point. I can justify credobaptism with sola scriptura just as I can justify paedobaptism with sola scriptura.