Thousands of Schools at Risk of Closing Due to Enrollment Loss

[peregrinus2017]

I find this to be a sadly revealing image of what is wrong with education these days.

 

[Belk]

Maybe this is the heart of the controversy. Some feeling the parents should have control over their children's education and others thinking the state should control it.

Last I checked "We the people" are the state. Perhaps if people stopped seeing it as a separate entity and actually worked to ensure their government was representative of their view we would have less issues?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Last I checked "We the people" are the state. Perhaps if people stopped seeing it as a separate entity and actually worked to ensure their government was representative of their view we would have less issues?

That's nice, in theory, but I don't think we have a diverse enough political party portfolio to choose from.

To think that 300+ million people are going to fit well into 1 of 2 ideological buckets may be a tad overly optimistic.

At best, people are often left in a situation where they have an option of picking the person who represents maybe 40'ish percent of their views? -- while making some serious concessions on the other 60% (and that's in a good year).

There's just too much diversity of thought for 2 parties to be adequate at a national level (and the same is true for state-level as well in purple states)

Ideally we should have 4 parties (left, center-left, center-right, right), but I'd settle for 3 (left, center, right)... at least in the legislative branch.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Maybe this is the heart of the controversy. Some feeling the parents should have control over their children's education and others thinking the state should control it.

What you've presented here is one of those "no perfect answer, so we just have to pick the best answer" situations.

I get that some parents are upset about certain things being injected into the curriculums (that are taking up time that should be used for teaching core subjects), and I get that teachers have a left-bias. (I've harped on it plenty over the past few years)

But the flip side of that coin, yanking kids out of public schools because some parents thing they can do it better borders on absurdity (in most cases).

A) ...because the parents who are the most upset about teacher biases are often folks who have some biases of their own. (meaning, the type of parent who would be outraged and make allegations of "indoctrination" because a sociology teacher discusses same sex couples, often times have their sights set on indoctrinating their kids in the opposite direction)

B) ...teacher biases aside, at the end of the day, a person who went through extensive training on a particular piece of subject matter is still going to be better suited than most parents when it comes to teaching that subject. That's especially true once you get to the high school level. You'd be hard pressed to find a parent who has the knowledge base to be able to teach every subject at a 10-12 grade level. There may be a few out there, but it's not many. Most parents are going to have some chops in maybe 1 or 2 of the subjects, and be lacking in the others. There's a reason why in elementary school levels, you have the same teacher for everything, and by the time you get to high school, you have a different teacher for each subject. It's because for most people, there's not enough time in the day to become a subject matter expert in everything. The person who studied Chemistry for 8 years in order to become an AP Science teacher probably didn't have a whole lot of time to study classical literature (and vice versa)

 

[Belk]

That's nice, in theory, but I don't think we have a diverse enough political party portfolio to choose from.

To think that 300+ million people are going to fit well into 1 of 2 ideological buckets may be a tad overly optimistic.

At best, people are often left in a situation where they have an option of picking the person who represents maybe 40'ish percent of their views? -- while making some serious concessions on the other 60% (and that's in a good year).

There's just too much diversity of thought for 2 parties to be adequate at a national level (and the same is true for state-level as well in purple states)

Ideally we should have 4 parties (left, center-left, center-right, right), but I'd settle for 3 (left, center, right)... at least in the legislative branch.

I agree we need more parties, but it is a bit of a chicken / egg situation. We need people to get involved in politics in order to make more parties a viable situation. More parties don't just happen without people being involved in the process.

 

[Tuur]

The person who studied Chemistry for 8 years in order to become an AP Science teacher probably didn't have a whole lot of time to study classical literature (and vice versa)

Um... studied eight years for a four year degree? That's for high school chemistry teacher. Eight years is doctorate level.

In teaching below college level, there's maybe more flexibility than some realize. Depending on the state, a teacher must be certified, and states have different requirements. But I've seen family members who majored in one course suddenly find themselves assigned to teach another. Again, depending on the state, they have to get a certificate in that course, but it's still not their major. Maybe that's how coaches end up assigned to the most surprising classes.

From what I've observed from the outside looking in, homeschool curriculum can be very solid, with the teacher's material designed to get the teacher up to speed. What I saw advanced with the course. Granted it's a mixed bag, but, unfortunately, so are public schools. I had a low opinion of a history book ours had back in the day due to watered down content and errors, and did not think much of the "estimate" craze. The "estimate" craze had the idea of teaching children to estimate, which is actually good, but before they knew how to calculate the same thing. In other words, a guess without any basis of whether it was even in the ballpark. When I asked one's teacher about that, her replay was "It's in the standards."

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I agree we need more parties, but it is a bit of a chicken / egg situation. We need people to get involved in politics in order to make more parties a viable situation. More parties don't just happen without people being involved in the process.

Part of the major issue with that is that the DNC & RNC control the game.

We have organizations like this one:

Commission on Presidential Debates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...controlled by the two main parties, and get to make the rules for "who gets to go on the field and play".

In order to get more viable alternatives, the first thing that would have to happen is that any entity that represents the duopoly would have to be dismantled, presenting another chicken/egg situation as the people who would be responsible for changing it would be the parties that are already in control.

The RNC doesn't want any serious competition from the LP, and the DNC doesn't want any competition from the Greens.
(and neither would any competition from a moderate party, as a moderate party would be both for their worst nightmares as moderate viewpoints arguably represent the largest piece of the pie in US politics)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Um... studied eight years for a four year degree? That's for high school chemistry teacher. Eight years is doctorate level.

In teaching below college level, there's maybe more flexibility than some realize. Depending on the state, a teacher must be certified, and states have different requirements. But I've seen family members who majored in one course suddenly find themselves assigned to teach another. Again, depending on the state, they have to get a certificate in that course, but it's still not their major. Maybe that's how coaches end up assigned to the most surprising classes.

From what I've observed from the outside looking in, homeschool curriculum can be very solid, with the teacher's material designed to get the teacher up to speed. What I saw advanced with the course. Granted it's a mixed bag, but, unfortunately, so are public schools. I had a low opinion of a history book ours had back in the day due to watered down content and errors, and did not think much of the "estimate" craze. The "estimate" craze had the idea of teaching children to estimate, which is actually good, but before they knew how to calculate the same thing. In other words, a guess without any basis of whether it was even in the ballpark. When I asked one's teacher about that, her replay was "It's in the standards."

That's why I mentioned AP courses in particular...

Many (if not most) school districts have higher requirements for those, that don't just end with the conferring of the degree. Virtually nobody's first teaching job is a 12th grade AP Chemistry or Bio course.

How to Get Certified to Teach AP Courses

Teachers cannot obtain an AP certification online or in-person. Instead, they can complete the AP Course Audit to have their courses authorized and gain access to AP classroom resources, such as practice exams for their students.

work.chron.com

Homeschool curriculums (in terms of reading materials) can be equivalent, but the environment and hands-on stuff is not...neither are the labs for science courses.

Just one example, in my high school bio class, we did a dissection of a pig and a cat, followed by delving into (by getting a first hand look) at the differences in the cardiovascular and digestive systems.

Is that happening in homeschooling environments?

The odds of a child having 2 parents, that between them, can cover the territory of a history major, English Lit major, math major, science major, PE/Health teacher, shop teacher, counselor, foreign language teacher, and computer science major, that know enough to teach it at a high school level (and have the related equipment - a gym, a wood/metal tech shop/etc..), are quite slim.

There's a reason why as students progress from elementary to high school, the teaching staffing transitions from "shallow breadth" to "narrow depth".

There's plenty of adults that can handle teaching everything at a 2nd grade level, teaching it all at a 12th grade level is a different beast.

 

[jacks]

Just one example, in my high school bio class, we did a dissection of a pig and a cat, followed by delving into (by getting a first hand look) at the differences in the cardiovascular and digestive systems.

I agree the average parent will be challenged by many 12th grade subjects. Of course how well they are covered even at schools varies considerably. (My school never dissected anything, but one frog.) I wonder if the internet and technology can help overcome some of those deficiencies? HERE is an example of Virtual Pig dissection and a Google search will find a variety of videos showing dissections of pigs. (Why do they pick on pigs?!) Perhaps the internet will not only allow parents to teach subjects they are unfamiliar with, perhaps it can give access to students from poorer districts, that wasn't available to them before.

My personal main problem with home schooling, is it may lead to a degradation of the school system in general. That is students with educated, active parents will get better schooling, leaving those less fortunate behind.

 

[Pommer]

My personal main problem with home schooling, is it may lead to a degradation of the school system in general. That is students with educated, active parents will get better schooling, leaving those less fortunate behind.

Imagine what a mediocre society which starves its educational systems while demanding “excellence” might look like.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Imagine what a mediocre society which starves its educational systems while demanding “excellence” might look like.

Mississippi?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Mississippi?

This doesn't appear to be just a "southern state" (or "liberal vs. conservative values") problem, nor does it seem to be directly linked to funding levels.

When California, Maryland, Illinois, and New York are having some of the same challenges as Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama with regards to proficiency scores... that should give everyone the motivation to "take a look under the hood" and see what's going on, and see what's being done differently from states that are having much better results.

It could very well different sets of issues causing the poor outcomes in those states.

As noted before, I don't think it's a "societal culture/values of the area" problem, because Tennessee and Texas are quite conservative, and they're not having the same problems as their fellow conservative state of Alabama. Likewise, Washington State and Oregon are more progressive states, and they're not running into the same issues as Illinois and California.

And the funding levels seem to be all over the board and there doesn't appear to be a correlative trend between spending and proficiency scores in the core subjects.

 

[Tuur]

Homeschool curriculums (in terms of reading materials) can be equivalent, but the environment and hands-on stuff is not...neither are the labs for science courses.

Just one example, in my high school bio class, we did a dissection of a pig and a cat, followed by delving into (by getting a first hand look) at the differences in the cardiovascular and digestive systems.

Is that happening in homeschooling environments?

Heh. If you grow up on a farm in a family that hunts, you see dissection on a regular basis, except we don't call it that. Dissection in biology was more of the same, the only difference being pointing out the organs and on the farm you don't have the stench of formaldehyde.

Yet you've brought up a sore point: Our offspring, in a public school, didn't have the same hands-on experience we did with dissections and lab experiments. Whether that was the school or from liability concerns, I never got an answer, but there was a marked difference. Keep in mind this was in a public school. If those dissections and chemistry experiences aren't happening in public school, then there's no advantage.

Now, you've argued for eight years of study to teach AP classes. Yet the teachers who give them seldom hold doctorates. Doctorates outside of colleges do exist (I have a cousin who's a teacher and has one), but you're more likely to find masters and bachelor degrees among high school teachers.

Really, when my wife and I went to high school, I don't think there was an AP, but how we were taught was like in college. When ours went through school, we were shocked at how students were practically spoon fed the material. It was the AP classes where students encountered how we used to be taught, and what was expected in college.

The one thing young family members in college have noticed about home school students was many they encountered wasn't used to the structure of classes. Most knew the material. Yes, you'll find some who didn't, but that was also the case with some students who had attended public schools.

 

[Tuur]

My personal main problem with home schooling, is it may lead to a degradation of the school system in general. That is students with educated, active parents will get better schooling, leaving those less fortunate behind.

That already happens. When ours were in school, there were always those we called "The usual suspects." These were the ones who consistently were there on Honors Night. Once, when the school gave away old reading textbooks and encouraged parents to take them for their children to use in the summer, guess who was there. Yep, the parents of "The usual suspects." Those parents were also there on math and science nights. They cared about their children's education and it showed. And yes, ours were in "The usual suspects."

Now, something my wife and I learned is that every parent, even those who's children are in public school, act as a teacher, or should. Whether it's answering one of the countless "Why?" questions or reading to children, every parent teaches to some degree. It's not something left only to the schools.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Now, you've argued for eight years of study to teach AP classes. Yet the teachers who give them seldom hold doctorates. Doctorates outside of colleges do exist (I have a cousin who's a teacher and has one), but you're more likely to find masters and bachelor degrees among high school teachers.

No, they don't have to get doctorate degrees in order to teach the AP class.

What I was referring to was that they often have to do some form of continuing education or get additional certifications via bidirectional audits (either they have to audit some additional classes, or have their proposed course material audited)

So where a person who just graduated with a 4-year degree can go into an elementary teaching job (although, more and more, they typically have to put in a year or so of "substitute teaching gigs" or do some adjunct teaching before they land somewhere full time), that's not going to be the case for an AP science teacher.

Someone who's teaching AP chemistry at a HS level has likely devoted far more than the just the 4 years of college in pursuit of that position.

For instance, my home state of Ohio lists the requirements for teaching AP & AP-prep (if the school district wishes to have their AP/AP-Prep courses recognized for additional GPA points and/or college credits)

- Candidates must have a minimum of a graduate degree in a field related to the subject area they will teach from an accredited college or university;
- Candidates must maintain 18 hours of continuing education credits per semester relating to their area of licensure;
- Candidates must have at least two full school years of experience teaching students at the 7-12 grade level (or 3 full school years teaching students at any grade level);

In a nutshell, it shakes out to about 8 years of time invested (plus the ongoing credit requirement)...and that's in a perfect world where there's such a position available and they're in the "right place at the right time". Since the number of openings is limited, chances are they're going to be waiting a while before there's a slot open they can toss their name in the hat for.

 

[FireDragon76]

Part of the picture is probably this:

"The U.S. population in 2020 was older and had fewer children under age 5 than in 2010 or 2000, according to the 2020 Census Demographic and Housing Characteristics (DHC) data released today.

The baby boom generation (born 1946-1964) and millennials (born 1982-2000) — the two largest U.S. cohorts in 2020 — both continued to age over the past two decades. At the same time, smaller cohorts of children were born from 2010 to 2020."

Source: Age Profiles of Smaller Geographies Don’t Always Mirror the National Trend

Economic inequality and more pessimism about the future probably has alot to do with it.

Among younger generations, a significant number experience eco-anxiety. They just don't feel it's worth bringing kids into a world where 3 degrees celsius of warming, and all the problems it brings, is a realistic possibility.

 

[Tuur]

In a nutshell, it shakes out to about 8 years of time invested (plus the ongoing credit requirement)...

Eight years is a doctorate, and yet there are high school teachers with a bachelor degree. The continuing education is a different issue and, hearing the the griping from some teachers, may not be all that it seems from the outside. And I knew two rather poor teacher who didn't have problems with these or with certification. That's not the same as teachers who continue studying for their masters and, yes, like my cousin, a doctorate. Yet something I've heard from them was the goal of increased pay, not a better grasp of the material.

Yet I know an excellent teacher who started with a two year degree in the 1940s, at an age when most students start college now. Such wouldn't be done now, but it raises a question of how much of requirements is actually required and not creeping credentialism.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Yes, you'll find some who didn't, but that was also the case with some students who had attended public schools

When I was in high school they took me out of regular school because I was pregnant/had a child so I ended up in an alternate program.

In my music class we realized one of my classmates could neither read nor write - little wonder he was having problems in school - so because the boy trusted me and I had patience with him the school had me teach him how to read and write. (It was actually their hope I would become a teacher some day... Lol)

The amount of children who just get passed over and who no one cares about is pretty large.

When my son was born he was 7 weeks early and didn't get enough oxygen and such when he was born. They thought he was going to be retarded but he just ended up with ADHD and some learning disabilities.

He used to go to school all day and then when I got home in the evening we had school at home all night.

He never would have made it if I hadn't, the school just didn't have the ability to teach him...

I can see why many parents are turning to home schooling. Why not just teach our kids, we often have to do it all night anyway.

Even with my daughter who didn't have learning disabilities I did the same thing. School all night to make sure the material was clearly understood... (Though maybe by her it had just become habit)

I know other parents in school often thought I was a teacher because I was there so much...

Why not cut out the middle man...?

Between that and what's going on in schools today I would homeschool now...

 

[iluvatar5150]

Eight years is a doctorate,

No, "eight years" is not "a doctorate." Many doctorates can be complete within 8 years, but 8 years of instruction does not automatically equate to one.

and yet there are high school teachers with a bachelor degree.

The discussion was specifically about AP classes, which are intended to be roughly equivalent to freshman-level college classes. Few people without a specialized bachelors or masters degree would be able to teach that. In college, that's often handled by TA's, who are grad students.

The continuing education is a different issue and, hearing the the griping from some teachers, may not be all that it seems from the outside. And I knew two rather poor teacher who didn't have problems with these or with certification. That's not the same as teachers who continue studying for their masters and, yes, like my cousin, a doctorate. Yet something I've heard from them was the goal of increased pay, not a better grasp of the material.

Yet I know an excellent teacher who started with a two year degree in the 1940s, at an age when most students start college now. Such wouldn't be done now, but it raises a question of how much of requirements is actually required and not creeping credentialism.

Much of what's taught in high school science classes now was either not even known/invented in the 1940's or was so new that it was still garnering Nobel prizes and/or being guarded by the military. Our understanding of history was not as thorough or as nuanced as it is now. Art and math are mostly the same, even if the techniques to teach them have evolved. Either way, there was literally less stuff to know in the 1940's and the expectations of what students would know upon graduation was lower.

 

[RileyG]

Gee, if only we had more people to give birth to the next generations of children to utilize these schools that we’ve spend all of this money on!

To be fair, we do have a low birth rate. Most small towns are dying out.