Thoughts on the temple in Ezekiel?

[Heavenly Realm]

Not everything we were taught in our Christian households was correct. We must go by the whole of scripture, not what we were taught by those, who like us, were imperfect and going by what they were taught by others too.

They may have been Godly teachers and they meant well, but they were/are wrong. It's God who has the say-so and HE says it's not ended, like it says in the whole of the Bible.

If anyone thinks the writer of Hebrews is disagreeing with God, then they must choose to believe God, not the writer of Hebrews. I personally don't believe the writer of Hebrews is disagreeing with God.

I think the religious people of the ages adjusted scripture to say what they wanted it to say in order to rule the people and then they taught that it says such'n'such and that many have just accepted it without question. We read the word with pre-decided notions of what it says and what it does not say. When we put aside what we've been taught something says and read it for what it really says, we see that in many a case we have been taught wrong.

Hello.Thanks for your reply.I am not just going by my upbringing,it is what the bible says.Christians are not under law because that would put people in a bondage to sin, and not be in faith.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hello.Thanks for your reply.I am not just going by my upbringing,it is what the bible says.Christians are not under law because that would put people in a bondage to sin, and not be in faith.

We are free from the law of sin and death. Not all that God set forth was as unto sin and death.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

We are free from the law of sin and death. Not all that God set forth was as unto sin and death.

I think I understand your thought.? But if people trying in their own strength to be righteous,is not God's own righteousness,isnt that living under the principal of law,which makes sin increse,if you know what I mean.It is hard to put into words,Thanks.

 

[cyberlizard]

please try and remember that the book of hebrews is comparing the then present age (before the destruction of the temple) with the age to come (so says the book)... it is not comparing jesus with the then temple system.

let me recommend this page for some serious free study material on the book of Hebrews (assuming people want to put in the effort to listen and study).

here is the link


Steve

p.s. note there are eighteen in all.... oh and spot the deliberate mistake in part one.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think I understand your thought.? But if people trying in their own strength to be righteous,is not God's own righteousness,isnt that living under the principal of law,which makes sin increse,if you know what I mean.It is hard to put into words,Thanks.

We are righteous through HIM. We cannot be anymore righteous through any actions. However, we are still to continue doing as HE would do. Which is what the righteous do.

 

[HEisGoodalways]

We are a temple while here on earth.

What is described in Ezekiel and Revelations is not us. It's a real temple in a real earth with real people bringing their sacrifices.

When you say it's a spiritual kingdom, what is it that you are saying? That it's just going to be in our minds perhaps????

Oh , It's alot more than just in our minds, but, yes, we do have the mind of Christ, as we flow in the Holy Spirit, the spiritual river of life

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, [SIZE=-1]streams of living water[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] will [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]flow from within him[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].” [39] By this he meant [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]the Spirit[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], whom those who believed in him were later to receive.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Revelation 22

The River of Life

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Beleive it or not, this river and city of God is the spiritual kingdom NOW!!! In us and thru us both individually and corparatly(as a body, a giant spiritual organism worldwide) but it is SPIRTUAL, NOT OF THIS WORLD!! It is contrary to the world system

And there will never be another literal, made with mans hands, kingdom!![/SIZE]

Heb 12

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."[e] 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire

 

[Heavenly Realm]

please try and remember that the book of hebrews is comparing the then present age (before the destruction of the temple) with the age to come (so says the book)... it is not comparing jesus with the then temple system.

let me recommend this page for some serious free study material on the book of Hebrews (assuming people want to put in the effort to listen and study).

here is the link


Steve

p.s. note there are eighteen in all.... oh and spot the deliberate mistake in part one.

Hi,dont mind me,I was raised in a household where if you did not study the bible for am hour each day,you did not eat.(just kidding,sort of).Hebrews teaches that the old covenant is over.And Second Corinthians chapter three covers this also.I just don't see how we can mix law and grace together.One is mans effort,one is God's love in the heart.Thanks.

 

[cyberlizard]

i really would suggest you listen to them as the arguments are extremely compelling particularly the val k'chomer ones.

law and grace are not mutually exclusive... otherwise Hebrews 11 is a joke.


Steve

p.s. I have listened to all 18 sessions on at least four occasions and am yet to find any hole in the argument... the book of hebrews is pro-jesus and pro-torah.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

We(the body of Christ) are the temple

1 Peter 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Our bodies are living sacrifices in the spiritual temple

Romans 12

Living Sacrifices to God

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

It is a spiritual kingdom!! We are not of this natural world!!

I agree with your assesment here because in 1 Peter chapter 2,he quotes about those who did not believe ,were stumbled over the "rock of offense".That is also in Romans 9,referring to people that were in the old covenant.It also says in 1 Peter 2-7,that they did not believe,which concurs with the last verse of Hebrew 3.Also in Hebrews 3,we see the comparrison of Moses's house,and that of Jesus.One was a natural earthly one,and the other spirtual.So yes,you are spot on.Thanks,Jeff.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I agree with your assesment here because in 1 Peter chapter 2,he quotes about those who did not believe ,were stumbled over the "rock of offense".That is also in Romans 9,referring to people that were in the old covenant.It also says in 1 Peter 2-7,that they did not believe,which concurs with the last verse of Hebrew 3.Also in Hebrews 3,we see the comparrison of Moses's house,and that of Jesus.One was a natural earthly one,and the other spirtual.So yes,you are spot on.Thanks,Jeff.

'cept you're comparing those who DO believe in HIM for their salvation and believe what HE HIMSELF said about His not being a God who changes and said that HIS words were everlasting with those who DON'T believe in HIM as Messiah at all.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

'cept you're comparing those who DO believe in HIM for their salvation and believe what HE HIMSELF said about His not being a God who changes and said that HIS words were everlasting with those who DON'T believe in HIM as Messiah at all.

Sorry,maybe I am not being clear.Yes,I agree with you that those who believe are now of faith,a spiritual house.New covenant,not the old.That is why Hebrews says that the old is obsolete now in verse 8-13.And in 7-18 where is says the first was set aside because the "law was useless in that it made nothing perfect".Also in Hebrews 10-9,it says "that he sets aside the first (covenant) to establish the second".Jeff.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sorry,maybe I am not being clear.Yes,I agree with you that those who believe are now of faith,a spiritual house.New covenant,not the old.That is why Hebrews says that the old is obsolete now in verse 8-13.And in 7-18 where is says the first was set aside because the "law was useless in that it made nothing perfect".Also in Hebrews 10-9,it says "that he sets aside the first (covenant) to establish the second".Jeff.

I'm not understanding how you can say that God has changed HIS mind on a vow HE said was everlasting. Are you confident that your understanding of scripture so far is all there is? Do you feel that you already know everything there is to know about HIS Word? Is it possible that there is some information that you have not considered yet?

Thought: Is a law (the soul that sins dies) and a covenant the same thing?

Notice also that the scriptures refers specifically to burnt and sin offerings...there were other offerings ya know. He does not say anything about the "other" offerings. He does not say those are done away with...only the burnt and sin offerings. Verse 18 of Heb 10 says "an offering for SIN is no longer needed". It specifies and singles out sin offering....not any other.

We are free from the law (single) of sin and death. He offered a final sacrifice (the blood of the lamb of God, Jesus) to wipe away all the sins of those who put their faith and trust in Him. HE did not however, get rid of the covenant He made with us. HIS covenant vow, according to HIM, is eternal. No writer of any book can declare that obsolete. Therefore, it must be the other writer that is either to be considered a liar or more likely we have misunderstood. God cannot be the one who lies or goes back on His promises. Period!

 

[cyberlizard]

technically the book of Hebrews does not say the old covenant is obsolete... it actually says that the old is in the process of disappearing as the tense of the verbs is an active form... i.e. still a work in progress...

it is becoming obsolete in the sense of outliving its usefulness. But the tense suggests it is not there yet.

the former regulation set aside is not the Torah, but the ownership of the priesthood. According to Hebrews it moves from levitical to melchitzedek... but in truth it started off with melchitzedek (at least according to genesis).

Note also that the word translated as 'steadfast' in Hebrews 2v2, regarding the Torah spoken through angels is used eight times in the new testament and denotes something that is secure and not moveable. How then can something unmoveable and secure be moved in this present age?


Steve

p.s. look at what the book of Hebrews says concerning itself.... It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking....

the book is comparing this present age with the age to come... it is not comparing jesus with this age we are in now.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

I have to admit, I'm really being blessed by the discussion here. I have to agree a lot with what cyberlizard and SpiritPsalmist are saying. We need to take the whole of Scripture and realize that it does not and cannot contradict itself. If God says that certain covenants are established through all eternity, He would not change that.

There is another thing to consider when it comes to this discussion. This is how God relates to both the Jew and the Gentile. All throughout the Bible, from beginning to end, the Children of Isreal are always favored by the Lord. Why else would even Paul say that it was to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile?

The covenants and promises made were specifically for the Children of Israel. They weren't intended for the Gentiles. The Gentile believers did follow in the customs and traditions, as the Lord commanded, but the promises were for His chosen people.

To use an analogy from the Old Testament concerning blessings. The first born child would be the one to receive the blessings of the father. We see this when Abraham blessed Issac, and we see how Jacob stole the blessings and birthrights from Issac. In the case of the Lord, the Children of Israel are the first born, with all the blessings from the Father. The Gentiles who believe are the second-born, still children of the Father, and still able to receive blessings from the Father, but the full blessing remains on the first born.

How does this apply to us? I think the answer is in Acts, during the debate between the Judiazers and the Gentile believers. Peter (if I recall correctly) basically said that the Gentiles only needed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, blood, and sexual immorality. There was no mention of keeping the traditions, rules or regulations. Nor does it say that the Jewish people should stop with their traditions.

The fourth temple will exist, as will the new Jerusalem, the new heavens and the new earth. God will dwell among His people. The promised land would go back to His Chosen people, and the sacrifices and feasts will continue among the Jews who came to faith. For the Gentiles, we will still be able to enter the Lord's presence, and live among His people, rejoicing in the benefits of being a child of God, grafted in through our faith in Jesus Christ.

I know my post was probably a little confusing, but let me try to make a short summary of what I was trying to say.

Israel is always God's Chosen. They are His first born. The Gentiles who believe are the second born, still able to obtain blessings, but on a different level than his first born. As a Gentile myself, that fact doesn't bother me in the least, for I know that even the blessings God will give to the second born is far greater than anything I can imagine.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

I'm not understanding how you can say that God has changed HIS mind on a vow HE said was everlasting. Are you confident that your understanding of scripture so far is all there is? Do you feel that you already know everything there is to know about HIS Word? Is it possible that there is some information that you have not considered yet?

Thought: Is a law (the soul that sins dies) and a covenant the same thing?

Notice also that the scriptures refers specifically to burnt and sin offerings...there were other offerings ya know. He does not say anything about the "other" offerings. He does not say those are done away with...only the burnt and sin offerings. Verse 18 of Heb 10 says "an offering for SIN is no longer needed". It specifies and singles out sin offering....not any other.

We are free from the law (single) of sin and death. He offered a final sacrifice (the blood of the lamb of God, Jesus) to wipe away all the sins of those who put their faith and trust in Him. HE did not however, get rid of the covenant He made with us. HIS covenant vow, according to HIM, is eternal. No writer of any book can declare that obsolete. Therefore, it must be the other writer that is either to be considered a liar or more likely we have misunderstood. God cannot be the one who lies or goes back on His promises. Period!

Hi.The book of Hebrews says in verse 10-18."once there has been forgiveness of sins,there is no longer any sacrifice left" To me that means that Jesus was the final spotless sacrificial lamb.To say we need more sacrifices is to say that his was not enough.We know it is enough because Hebrews 10-10 and 10-14 says we have been made holy,ONCE and for all,by his sacrifice.That would prove the meaning of verses 18.The blood of goats and bulls was not enough,and God was not pleased with them either.That is why the new covenenat was ratified by the blood of the lamb,who took away the sins of the world,by his body.Again I posted where the coevenant ended already,thanks,Jeff.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

technically the book of Hebrews does not say the old covenant is obsolete... it actually says that the old is in the process of disappearing as the tense of the verbs is an active form... i.e. still a work in progress...

it is becoming obsolete in the sense of outliving its usefulness. But the tense suggests it is not there yet.

the former regulation set aside is not the Torah, but the ownership of the priesthood. According to Hebrews it moves from levitical to melchitzedek... but in truth it started off with melchitzedek (at least according to genesis).

Note also that the word translated as 'steadfast' in Hebrews 2v2, regarding the Torah spoken through angels is used eight times in the new testament and denotes something that is secure and not moveable. How then can something unmoveable and secure be moved in this present age?


Steve

p.s. look at what the book of Hebrews says concerning itself.... It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking....

the book is comparing this present age with the age to come... it is not comparing jesus with this age we are in now.

Hi,Well it is also fair to say that Hebrews 9-11 also says "of the good thongs that are already here".In Hebrews 10-9,it says,"he set aside the first covenant".Also in Hebrews 8-7 it says, "If the first covenant had been found faultless,there would have been no need for another" Again in Hebrews 7-18 it says "the former regulationis sey aside".Jeff.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

I have to admit, I'm really being blessed by the discussion here. I have to agree a lot with what cyberlizard and SpiritPsalmist are saying. We need to take the whole of Scripture and realize that it does not and cannot contradict itself. If God says that certain covenants are established through all eternity, He would not change that.

There is another thing to consider when it comes to this discussion. This is how God relates to both the Jew and the Gentile. All throughout the Bible, from beginning to end, the Children of Isreal are always favored by the Lord. Why else would even Paul say that it was to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile?

The covenants and promises made were specifically for the Children of Israel. They weren't intended for the Gentiles. The Gentile believers did follow in the customs and traditions, as the Lord commanded, but the promises were for His chosen people.

To use an analogy from the Old Testament concerning blessings. The first born child would be the one to receive the blessings of the father. We see this when Abraham blessed Issac, and we see how Jacob stole the blessings and birthrights from Issac. In the case of the Lord, the Children of Israel are the first born, with all the blessings from the Father. The Gentiles who believe are the second-born, still children of the Father, and still able to receive blessings from the Father, but the full blessing remains on the first born.

How does this apply to us? I think the answer is in Acts, during the debate between the Judiazers and the Gentile believers. Peter (if I recall correctly) basically said that the Gentiles only needed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, blood, and sexual immorality. There was no mention of keeping the traditions, rules or regulations. Nor does it say that the Jewish people should stop with their traditions.

The fourth temple will exist, as will the new Jerusalem, the new heavens and the new earth. God will dwell among His people. The promised land would go back to His Chosen people, and the sacrifices and feasts will continue among the Jews who came to faith. For the Gentiles, we will still be able to enter the Lord's presence, and live among His people, rejoicing in the benefits of being a child of God, grafted in through our faith in Jesus Christ.

I know my post was probably a little confusing, but let me try to make a short summary of what I was trying to say.

Israel is always God's Chosen. They are His first born. The Gentiles who believe are the second born, still able to obtain blessings, but on a different level than his first born. As a Gentile myself, that fact doesn't bother me in the least, for I know that even the blessings God will give to the second born is far greater than anything I can imagine.

Hi.Yes, I to am enjoying the fellowship here today.
Paul in Romans said that there is no more Jew or Gentile,which would confirm Ephesians 2-15.We are now one new man.The law that separated both,is nailed to a cross now.In the third chapter of Galatians,it says,"the gospel was announced before hand",and we know it was for both Jew and Gentile.Also prior to the rules given to Gentile converts in the book of acts,Paul Peter and Barnabas were apposed to these,but with all the pressure of what was going on,it probably was good to cool the crowd.We see in acts,that was a concern,riots.Dont forget about a year later,Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 said eat all things sold in the meat market.All the foods in the market were sacrificed to idols.So paul knew that Jesus had made all foods clean anyways,he also said that all foods are clean in Romans 14.

 

[Heavenly Realm]

Mother was Jewish,her and dad would debate this issue often.As young children we got bored with it though.hahaha

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hi.The book of Hebrews says in verse 10-18."once there has been forgiveness of sins,there is no longer any sacrifice left" To me that means that Jesus was the final spotless sacrificial lamb.To say we need more sacrifices is to say that his was not enough.We know it is enough because Hebrews 10-10 and 10-14 says we have been made holy,ONCE and for all,by his sacrifice.That would prove the meaning of verses 18.The blood of goats and bulls was not enough,and God was not pleased with them either.That is why the new covenenat was ratified by the blood of the lamb,who took away the sins of the world,by his body.Again I posted where the coevenant ended already,thanks,Jeff.

Are you sure that what you posted says what you say it does? Are you really sure???? You're not just seeing what you've been told it says????? Thats so very easy to do you know, read what you've been told is there and totally miss what really is.

I'm not trying to goad you just I've been where you are when suddenly I saw it. I saw what I had not realized was there, 'cause my teachers had told me ahead of time what it said, so that when I read that was all I saw.

 

[HEisGoodalways]

Hi.Yes, I to am enjoying the fellowship here today.
Paul in Romans said that there is no more Jew or Gentile,which would confirm Ephesians 2-15.We are now one new man.The law that separated both,is nailed to a cross now.In the third chapter of Galatians,it says,"the gospel was announced before hand",and we know it was for both Jew and Gentile.Also prior to the rules given to Gentile converts in the book of acts,Paul Peter and Barnabas were apposed to these,but with all the pressure of what was going on,it probably was good to cool the crowd.We see in acts,that was a concern,riots.Dont forget about a year later,Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 said eat all things sold in the meat market.All the foods in the market were sacrificed to idols.So paul knew that Jesus had made all foods clean anyways,he also said that all foods are clean in Romans 14.

Amen Jeff, We are a new man in Christ both indiidually and the big mystery is we are a new man corporatly as His spiritual body and He is the head of the body

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif][Eph 5:32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif][Col 1:26,27] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif]While the New Testament speaks of several different mysteries, there is one that stands out in greatness of importance. It is revealed to us by the apostle Paul, and contains the details of God’s grand redemptive plan . I say the details of the plan, because redemption in general is a theme that pervades the whole Bible.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif]So what exactly was the mystery? That God would send a Messiah to save His people Israel was not a mystery. Neither was it a mystery that Gentiles would be saved . For example, [Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’ . It was even revealed that the Messiah would be a suffering servant in Isaiah 53. What was the great mystery? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif]What was hidden in the secret counsels of the Almighty was this: that an entirely new creation, made up of a diverse assortment of people including both Jews and Gentiles, possessing incredible spiritual riches (Eph 3:8), would come into existence. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif]This new creation is described as being in a living, organic union with the resurrected and glorified Lord Jesus Christ. It is called ‘the Body of Christ’, or the ‘Bride of Christ’, or ‘the Church’. It is not an organization, but an organism. The Lord Jesus is the head of this unique organism: [Eph 5:23b] ‘Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body’. [1 Cor 12:27] ‘Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular[/FONT]