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Thoughts on Historical Creationism?

Hieronymus

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I don't get into debates about "evidence" for evolutionary theory. However, even if there is a single shred of evidence for evolutionary theory (I happen to think there's much, much more, but that's beside the point), that is infinitely more "evidence" than there is for the alternative that you would propose. So if "evidence" is so important to you, why do you ignore it's lack of existence when it pertains to the interpretations that you would offer?
It's all about assessing the explanatory power of the 2 options: chance or design.
The evidence shows rather conclusively that there's no chance for chance (being dead unconscious purposeless natural processes bringing forth what we observe today)
Now as science still discovers more complexity and genius in our reality (fine tuned universe and living nature) naturalistic beliefs are only losing more and more credibility.
 
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rjs330

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We're supposed to test that though.
Yes and we test that by referring to the word of God. We see if other scripture helps us see clearly. If other scripture verifies scripture we have tested and found we are right or wrong ,on our thoughts. AiB has a great point in that bias can play a part. But it's our job to try and eliminate that by testing as you say. See if our bias is in the way by looking at other scripture as well.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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While I agree that bias can play a role in scriptural understanding it doesn't have to.

What you are proposing is simply not possible. One's biases and presuppositions are interwoven into the very formation and expression of human thinking. They are not simply buttons that can be turned on and off; they shape how we use language, how we think about the world, how we read literature, and how we appropriate the things that we read and hear into our internal representation of reality. To suggest that we can simply suspend these completely simply represents a fundamental ignorance about the most basic aspects of human epistemology.

True scriptural scholarship strives to let scripture speak for itself. What does the text say?

The text "says" what we interpret it to say. The notion of the texts containing a contextual-less, "objective" meaning is simply fanciful. As literature, the words of Scripture are the result of the thinking of the authors (and the innumerable influences which led them to write what they did); in the same way, when we read the Scriptures, we necessarily and actively engage them with our own experiences, biases, and presuppositions about reality, God, etc. While we can be self-aware of how these shape our ultimate understanding of what we read, we cannot simply stop being "who we are" in order to arrive at the "real" meaning that the Scriptures are "saying".

What you seem to be saying here is we can never really get the true meaning of scripture or really understand it because our bias always gets in the way. If that is true then it's just pure luck if we happen to get it right.

Luck has nothing to do with anything, as there is no "true" meaning of Scripture. This notion belies the assumption that the Scriptures are objective repositories of truth that are transcendent of human thinking and experience. However, as they were written by humans, the same implications of personal biases and presuppositions that color our interpretations most certainly played a role in the authorship as well. So then, there is no mind-transcendent meaning in Scripture that is simply awaiting the right interpretive paradigm to unlock the "true meaning"; meaning is rather created through the conversation between author and reader.

So, then, the best place we can start is to try our best to understand how the biases, presuppositions, and experiences of the authors shaped the things that they wrote, allowing these conclusions to inform our interpretations. If we, as you propose, simply "let the Scriptures speak for themselves", this will signal that we are taking the easy road, a road which will inevitably lead to interpretations that align more with our preconceived notions, than with the intentions of the ancient authors.

What I find, when it comes,to scriptural understanding, is that our bias usually comes from an outside source. Perhaps a book we read or a science we follow.

Yes, obviously. But this is inevitable. There is no "objective" approach to interpreting the Scriptures. Regardless of how you approach them, you and I each bring along our own philosophical baggage that will indelibly color the conclusions that we reach. The best we can do is try to become as self-aware about how our biases and presuppositions affect the outcomes. If we believe that we can transcend our own thinking in the act of interpretation, we deceive ourselves.

But real biblical scholarship takes proper hermeneutics and exegesis and applies that to,scripture and lets,the text do the talking. As Paul said
Every scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for showing mistakes, for correcting, and for training character, so that the person who belongs to God can be equipped to do everything that is good.
2 Timothy 3:16‭-‬17 CEB
http://bible.com/37/2ti.3.16-17.CEB

But you're just making my point! You suggest that we need to simply apply "proper hermeneutics and exegesis"...not realizing, of course, that these are the very tools that are influenced by the inherent biases and presuppositions that the interpreter brings to the task of interpretation. The notion that there is a "proper" version of these belies the same misunderstanding as before. There is no "objective" paradigm for hermeneutics or exegesis; the "propriety" of any particular approach will be determined by our philosophical leanings, our worldview, etc.

It is all inspired and useful. How can we possibly teach, reprove and exhort if we cannot say what we are saying is correct? If,all interpretation is biased then we have no ability to truly understand or use scripture correctly.

This conclusion is based on the falacious premise that we have to be able to "establish" the "truthfulness" of Scripture in order for it to be useful. That is a standard that you are applying out of the repository of your biases and worldview. This is very much in keeping with the western, modern bias for historicity; it values only that which corresponds to "proofs" and demonstrable evidence (the criteria for which is arbitrary, but nevermind that!!), and dismisses as false and useless anything which does not.

There is, however, no objective reason why such a conclusion is necessary; it is yet another result of the very point I have been making all along.

Our goal when studying scripture should be to strip away our bias and let the word,of God transform our thoughts. Let scripture strip away our bias and let our thoughts conform to what the bible says.

Once again, the sentiment is noble, but does not reflect how human thinking actually works.

When God says he created in six days it means he created in six days.

The very fact that you make a decision to interpret this literally (and by literally, I mean specifically according to the parameters of modern, western notions of historicity) proves my point entirely. There is nothing within the text itself that requires such an interpretation; however, you have made it because you, like most of us in the West, value the "historical" and the "literal" above all else, and eschew that which is "figurative" or (gasp!) "mythological".

But let's be clear: you are certainly not suspending any biases in making this interpretation. To the contrary, you are walking lock-step with the conclusions that the biases of modern, western thinking would prescribe. In doing so, you have proven my point in its fulness.

And the real tragedy in this? You haven't given the smallest thought to what the author might have been trying to say in the recitation of this creation narrative. You don't care about how this type of genre was used in other ANE literature; you don't care about the oral traditions that might lie behind it; and you certainly don't care about the theological intentions that the author might have had in composing this text.

No, you have an overriding bias and presupposition (the Scriptures are "true", which means they correspond to my western, modern notions of historicity and "fact"), and you have allowed it to be the dominating paradigm for interpreting the text. Rather than "allowing the text to speak" as you nobly claim you wish to do, your actual actions suggest that you are concerned very little about that, and are more interested in buttressing the biases you hold about the nature of Scripture itself.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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It's all about assessing the explanatory power of the 2 options: chance or design.
The evidence shows rather conclusively that there's no chance for chance (being dead unconscious purposeless natural processes bringing forth what we observe today)
Now as science still discovers more complexity and genius in our reality (fine tuned universe and living nature) naturalistic beliefs are only losing more and more credibility.

This is simply bad logic. Probabilities aren't useful for past events. And they are certainly useless for supernatural events. Regardless of how "improbable" the natural evolution of the universe might be, it is infinitely more probable than a supernatural origin.

I'm not suggesting that God didn't create the universe; I believe that God did. However, there is simply no way to demonstrate that this is the case, and we should certainly not try to do so by pointless attempts at manufacturing causality by the analysis of probabilities.
 
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Hieronymus

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Yes and we test that by referring to the word of God.
Not what i meant in this case.
We should test Scripture itself too.
And thus we conclude the domed flat earth model is not a reality in our reality.
For all of the rest there is either supporting evidence or lack of evidence.
Nowadays there is more and more evidence to support Scripture though.
Special creation is quite certain when you look at the facts.
 
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Hieronymus

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This is simply bad logic. Probabilities aren't useful for past events.
Are you suggesting we should repeat the past in a lab?
Where's your logic at then?

Did you even understand what i wrote?
 
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rjs330

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Not what i meant in this case.
We should test Scripture itself too.
And thus we conclude the domed flat earth model is not a reality in our reality.
For all of the rest there is either supporting evidence or lack of evidence.
Nowadays there is more and more evidence to support Scripture though.
Special creation is quite certain when you look at the facts.
I know there is a,debate on the flat earth model and did or did not the writers believe in flat earth. I tend to lean that they did not. Again for the same reasons that God would not deceive in an inspired book by an inspired author. The fact that there is debate simply means there is debate. God knows the earth is not flat so he would not allow that to be entered into his word for us to believe it is. He is not a man that he should lie. It does not fit the character of God.
 
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Speedwell

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I know there is a,debate on the flat earth model and did or did not the writers believe in flat earth. I tend to lean that they did not. Again for the same reasons that God would not deceive in an inspired book by an inspired author. The fact that there is debate simply means there is debate. God knows the earth is not flat so he would not allow that to be entered into his word for us to believe it is. He is not a man that he should lie. It does not fit the character of God.
On the other hand, if God was writing to an audience who believed the Earth was flat, why should He bother to disabuse them of that notion?
 
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Job8

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So what are your thoughts on this view?
Without checking the link, the Promised Land was promised to Abraham and his descendants about 1900 years before Christ, so there is no way to tie creation into that Covenant.

We need to take the creation account in its plain literal sense, and understand that Genesis chapter two is simply a focus on the first human pair, not a separate account about creation (as some postulate). The strongest support for this is embedded in the Ten Commandments.
 
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rjs330

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On the other hand, if God was writing to an audience who believed the Earth was flat, why should He bother to disabuse them of that notion?
Well God is good at disabusing people of wrong notions. And there is no real reason to believe the Isrealites thought the earth was flat. People say God is not fair, but he says his judgements are true and righteous. I don't think I really need to point to scriptures that show how God disabuses false thought.
 
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Hieronymus

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We need to take the creation account in its plain literal sense, and understand that Genesis chapter two is simply a focus on the first human pair, not a separate account about creation (as some postulate). The strongest support for this is embedded in the Ten Commandments.
If you don't mind, i think it's better to say that Genesis 2:4 and on focusses on the Garden.
And God apparently did 'repeat' creation of life forms there.
 
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Hieronymus

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I know there is a,debate on the flat earth model and did or did not the writers believe in flat earth. I tend to lean that they did not. Again for the same reasons that God would not deceive in an inspired book by an inspired author. The fact that there is debate simply means there is debate. God knows the earth is not flat so he would not allow that to be entered into his word for us to believe it is. He is not a man that he should lie. It does not fit the character of God.
Maybe it is flat and domed to Him though.
:)
 
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Speedwell

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Well God is good at disabusing people of wrong notions. And there is no real reason to believe the Isrealites thought the earth was flat. People say God is not fair, but he says his judgements are true and righteous. I don't think I really need to point to scriptures that show how God disabuses false thought.
Here's a question for you:
What's your take on Post-Impressionist art (Manet, Gauguin, van Gogh, etc.)? Do you think the paintings aren't true because they're not realistic?
 
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miamited

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Hi aib,

You responded:
I'm not sure why you see a necessary juxtaposition between "myth" and "truth".

Ok, then let's just take the word 'myth' out of our discussion and call everything that we would have normally in the past called a myth and just say 'truth'. When I look up the word 'truth' in a thesaurus, I don't find the word 'myth' as one of its reasonably similar alternatives. Now, the definition of 'juxtaposition' is:
1. an act or instance of placing close together or side by side, esp. for comparison or contrast.
2. the state of being close together.

Perhaps you don't honestly see any reason to place the meaning and understanding of the word 'truth' side by side with the word 'myth' for comparison of meaning in this discussion. So be it! Me thinks you just like showing your great knowledge by throwing around a lot of ten dollar words that you may or may not even know what they mean. Honestly, juxtaposition is exactly what we're talking about here. Placing the two words side by side and doing a comparative analysis of their meaning and understanding. Myth does not equal truth and truth does not equal myth.

Personally, I believe that you have bought into this great and fanciful new age understanding that there is somehow a way that a myth can be true. Sure, one can use a myth to bring forth some truth, i.e., aesop's fables, but the myth itself is not true. But, there is a part of our great and learned understanding today that seeks to blur that line. To, assuage our corrupt thinking by redefining the meaning and understanding of words so that they then conform to our meaning and intent. It's not a whole lot different than method number two of my options for understanding the creation account.

You also responded:
Regarding the suggestion that the Scriptures are "clear and simple", I don't understand the basis upon which this assumption is made.

Yes, I can see that. After so many discourses between us, you may not ever understand that. But, suffice it to say, that my understanding of 'why' God gave unto the Jew the Scriptures to be written down as His revelation of Himself to all of mankind, was for each and every individual to understand. Written plainly and simply using words and terms that He expects man to clearly understand. Knowing God does not require some mental gymnastics and great university education to understand what He has revealed to us. God has been plain in His explanation, and in this particular case repeated it a couple of times elsewhere in the Scriptures, using the simple phrase that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.

But, because our great and learned men of science tell us that this just can't possibly in any way shape or form be the truth, we then try to use the mental gymnastics to conform the wisdom of the Scriptures to the wisdom of man. We start explaining that, "Well, the account of the creation is obviously a 'true' myth! In this way we can make it conform to what our great and learned men of university education and the scientific method of man have shown us is 'really' the truth. It's a myth, but it makes truthful points...therefore, it is true!" Voile' LOL!!!

You said:
Blindly assuming that the philosophical biases and worldviews which we hold as modern, western thinkers corresponds to that of people who lived thousands and thousands of years ago appears to be the height of interpretive naivety to me.

I imagine that's a true statement. After all of our discussion of the subject I have no doubt that it 'appears' that way to you. You have made that obviously and repeatedly clear to me.

You wrote:
Are you not doing the same thing, however, in your false bifurcation of "myth" and "truth"? By imposing this paradigm upon your interpretation of Scripture, you are introducing a philosophical rule that may or may not have been shared by the ancient authors.

Oh, I don't know. Jesus said that God's word is truth and since the meaning and understanding of 'truth' vs. 'myth' have, for as long as I've seen records going back, never been similar, I'm pretty sure that Jesus and I have the same understanding. You see, my understanding is, yes, the old and, I'm confident, original understanding of the veracity of God's word in that all that it recounts to us is the truth. Yours is actually the 'new age' understanding as I've explained above. Satan is a liar and father of all lies. Myth only equals truth in his dictionary.

You responded:
Is this not precisely the same behavior against which Paul warns about?!?

Perhaps you could direct me to that teaching. I hope you won't be hurt that I'm not particularly willing to just take your word for it that Paul made such a claim about those who reason as I do.

Finally you wrote:
You can laugh all you want, but the criticism is valid.

Obviously it is to you. You're the one who said it was funny. I was just laughing with you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Speedwell

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Yes, I can see that. After so many discourses between us, you may not ever understand that. But, suffice it to say, that my understanding of 'why' God gave unto the Jew the Scriptures to be written down as His revelation of Himself to all of mankind, was for each and every individual to understand. Written plainly and simply using words and terms that He expects man to clearly understand. Knowing God does not require some mental gymnastics and great university education to understand what He has revealed to us. God has been plain in His explanation, and in this particular case repeated it a couple of times elsewhere in the Scriptures, using the simple phrase that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.
That is as clear a description of the Doctrine of Perspicuity as I have seen in this forum. How do you account for it not being widely accepted by Christians generally?
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi again aib,

You wrote to rjs;
The best we can do is be aware of how they shape our understanding, and do our best to suspend them in order to read through the "eyes" of the ancient writers.

On what basis are you gaining the understanding that he or I are not reading the text 'through the "eyes" of the ancient writers'? I'm just curious about your credibility in being able to make this supposed argument that our biases are not allowing us to read and understand the Scriptures in the way that the ancient writers intended them to be read and understood. How do you know that whatever biases I might bring to my reading are not pretty much the same biases that the ancient writers held, or more correctly, those who shortly after their being written, read them? When Daniel read the writings of Jeremiah did he hold biases that caused him to understand what Jeremiah had written incorrectly? Other than setting up this false argument, and most certainly unprovable claim, that our biases are keeping us from understanding the Scriptures correctly, on what basis are you able to say with any certainty that my biases are keeping me from understanding the Scriptures correctly?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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miamited

Ted
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That is as clear a description of the Doctrine of Perspicuity as I have seen in this forum. How do you account for it not being widely accepted by Christians generally?

Hi speedwell,

I'm not sure that it isn't. Yes, there are many who don't understand the clearness and lucidity of the Scriptures, but that's pretty much what the Scriptures tell us is going to be the nature of man as we march inexorably into the end of days.

Peter wrote about 'believers' who didn't understand Paul's writings. He wrote that these people would make up doctrines and that their destruction is patiently waiting for them. Jesus spoke about the 'many' who would follow the road to destruction and said that 'few' there be that find the way of life. He also, to me, seems to have clearly warned us that there are many who are with us as christians and believers who aren't going to make the cut. Why?

Let's look at this claim of his more closely. He tells us that on the day of His Father's judgment that there will be many crying out to him that sure he must know them. They cry out that they performed mighty miracles and did great things and drove out demons 'in his name'!!!!!!!! These are obviously people that we, mere simple human beings, while living on the earth looked to and understood as being christians. Certainly they would have called themselves christians. I mean, let's get real here for a minute. Who do you know or have ever read about in all of history that did such things in the name of Jesus, and didn't identify themselves as christians? Name me just one person that you know of that has gone out into the world and driven out demons from people, or performed some great miracle such as healing or some such, in the name of Jesus, that didn't identify themselves as being a christian? After all, Jesus said there were many, so surely if there are such people about we all ought to be able to name at least one.

So, yes, while I understand the Scriptures as being pretty much clear and lucid in explaining to us what God has done and what He desires of us, based on the Scriptures themselves, I also know that there will be a lot of 'christians' who just don't get it. There will be those that Peter spoke of that just don't seem to be able to understand, not only what Paul wrote to us for our benefit, but also he said that these people distort other places of the Scriptures. Yes! I understand that there are 'many' out there who are joined with us in claiming the title of christian that Jesus is going to say to them, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity".

Let me ask you what I believe is a very, very important question:

If God did create all that we see just as the Scriptures seem to clearly explain to us, but we are living this life trying to convince others that this simple explanation isn't really the truth because of what our great and learned men of science have told us is the truth of such things, are we not workers of iniquity? Are we not working to undermine God's sovereign word?

When Jesus says to them to depart from him as workers of iniquity, it seems clear to me that this 'working of iniquity' is surely not them trying to convince people not to claim that Jesus is Lord! Surely these people doing these wonderful things in Jesus' name are telling people that they need to believe on Jesus that they might be saved. So, there must be some other problem for which Jesus sends them away as 'workers of iniquity'. How could someone who does such great things in Jesus' name and teaches others to believe in Jesus by these signs and wonders that Jesus told us would be shown by his disciples suddenly find themselves branded as workers of iniquity?

What's your answer? What is your understanding of this account that many people who have done great and marvelous things in the name of Jesus are sent packing on the day of God's judgment? Now, surely there may be more than one reason that they are sent packing. Maybe some of them who did these things and identified as christians taught others that the way man got here is through some evolutionary process. Another direct contradiction to what God has said. Maybe some of them, while living these 'holy' lives, were caught up in some private sin for which they never sought God's forgiveness. But it sure seems clear to me that 'if' God did do something that He told us that He did, but we, identifying ourselves as His children, attempt to teach others that this isn't really what God did, that God would see that person as working iniquity.

So, maybe, speedwell, a lot of born again children of the one true and living God do see things as I do. Maybe a lot of others who claim the name of christian are still stuck under Peter's condemnation and will, on the last day, find themselves to be massed with the workers of iniquity. I think Jesus was pretty clear that not everyone who says to him, "Lord, Lord! Will enter the kingdom of heaven." What's the dividing line. What separates the born again children of God from the hangers on in the group? On what basis is Jesus going to turn to 'many' who proclaimed his name before the people and tell them to 'depart from me you workers of iniquity'?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Look Up

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The truth is I want to believe it but there is a lack of support for the view and it has been analyzed by those outside of the view and say Sailhamer is not interpreting the Hebrew words properly.

I'm a YEC only because I find some stumbling blocks in the OEC view. The days could be thousands of years, but the text seems to indicate they were 24 hour days. So I find an OEC view plausible and moslty biblical, I just don't think it is the plain reading of text.

I found the article cited in the OP persuasive on the whole (exegetically speaking) and, having not read the book, realize there is additional support possible (outside the article), but the Genesis creation narrative is so controverted and vital that I would be interested in references to analysis claiming "Sailhamer is not interpreting the Hebrew words properly" and in why you claim "there is lack if support for the view" (the article alone included a great deal of support). Whether Sailhamer is correct wrt Gen. 1:1 vs. v. 2 is not something I am wholly persuaded on as of this writing, though his arguments (per the article)--including semantic ones--are well substantiated.
 
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miamited

Ted
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So get to the point:

It's a fact that when people in ancient times wrote historial narratives , getting the facts right (even if they knew them) was not as important to them as the story they were telling. This is well established and documented by scholars of ancient literature.

Why is the Bible an exception? Why should we read the Bible as if it was a modern historical narrative, written in a time when getting the facts right is the most important thing about an historical narrative?

A. On exactly what factual evidence are you making your initial claim that in ages past telling a story was somehow more important than getting the facts of that story correct? My understanding is that because of the limited use of writing things down because people didn't carry around an Ipad or pencil and paper, that the human ability to carry forward facts from memory was a much more important and practiced ability than we have today. I can't actually reference any evidence of that understanding as it was something that was covered in a bible study group many, many years ago and I have no idea where that evidence came from, but I'm sure it can be researched. You, on the other hand seem to have a totally reversed understanding of ancient man's ability and desire to keep 'facts' straight in an account and you make the claim that this is some well proven, established and documented understanding. Ok, I'm game, let's look into it. Where should I start?

Why should the Scriptures be any different than other writings of men? Gee, that seems like such an easy one for a believer to answer. The author of other writings of men were men. The author of the Scriptures is God, through His Holy Spirit.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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