Thoughts on feminism?

[ThisIsMe123]

Speaking of which, I recall an instance where a male friend of mine posted a meme during Breast Cancer Awareness month...kind of an amusing meme where it said, "It's National Breast Cancer Awareness month, mammagram them instead of Instagraming them!"

It got some chuckles, then from out of the blue some young woman went crazy on him. (Some friend of a friend on social media). If a post is set to global and not "friends only" then it can be seen by all.

She's like, "I can do what I want with my body online without having being harassed (via comments)" or some junk like that. She just went off on him.

Turns out she was some young anime/cosplay model that had a huge following. My friend who posted this was friends with the father of this 20-something woman. I found it interesting that I also run in those geek circles as well and go to the cons.

It's best not to engage in these types, because she'll always have the support of her thirsty male 20-something men and women backing her all the way.

People from my social circle and his page were telling her to pipe down, it's just frickin' meme, but she threw her feminist dialogue all over his page. He wound up deleting it. She was just embarrassing herself by making something out of nothing.

 

[Zoii]

Speaking of which, I recall an instance where a male friend of mine posted a meme during Breast Cancer Awareness month...kind of an amusing meme where it said, "It's National Breast Cancer Awareness month, mammagram them instead of Instagraming them!"

It got some chuckles, then from out of the blue some young woman went crazy on him. (Some friend of a friend on social media). If a post is set to global and not "friends only" then it can be seen by all.

She's like, "I can do what I want with my body online without having being harassed (via comments)" or some junk like that. She just went off on him.

Turns out she was some young anime/cosplay model that had a huge following. My friend who posted this was friends with the father of this 20-something woman. I found it interesting that I also run in those geek circles as well and go to the cons.

It's best not to engage in these types, because she'll always have the support of her thirsty male 20-something men and women backing her all the way.

People from my social circle and his page were telling her to pipe down, it's just frickin' meme, but she threw her feminist dialogue all over his page. He wound up deleting it. She was just embarrassing herself by making something out of nothing.

So your point is what...pointless?

 

[ThisIsMe123]

So your point is what...pointless?

My point was that I mirror Black Ribbon's thoughts on how some make a big deal out of nothing. My friends' example was just that point.

 

[Zoii]

My point was that I mirror Black Ribbon's thoughts on how some make a big deal out of nothing. My friends' example was just that point.

Unfortunately he extrapolates further than a lame example. He...and I suspect you [hope Im wrong] want to taint someone with feminist ideals as being some mad hairy legged lenonist who runs round like a crazy witch complaining about things that are trivial or arguable.

I'm wanting to shake people who generalise like that - To me and my friends, our feminist ideals focus on things that you as a male are far less likely to be troubled about. When you walk home late at night, you dont have to sweat because you see a group of girls walking your way......now reverse it. You a girl my age and you see a group of guys walking your way.

We get sick of ...'oh u women complain about nothing'.....despite the fact we know, that you know, that rape and domestic violence and child pornography is rife and increasing. My friends and I dont get why you lot trivialise us. What are we to conclude but that its just plain vindictiveness.

 

[Zoii]

Some folks are just convinced the world is out to get little ol' them and look for any reason to be offended. Pathetic really, but not much to be done other than laugh at their ridiculousness and walk away.

Well while you consider feminist concerns such as child molestation, rape and violence as trivial; feminists such as myself dont. Im sure you might change your mind when your pinned down and have a penis thrust into your rectum. If that occurs please be assured I wont be calling you 'pathetic' and 'ridiculous' in the same way you have.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Unfortunately he extrapolates further than a lame example. He...and I suspect you [hope Im wrong] want to taint someone with feminist ideals as being some mad hairy legged lenonist who runs round like a crazy witch complaining about things that are trivial or arguable.

I'm wanting to shake people who generalise like that - To me and my friends, our feminist ideals focus on things that you as a male are far less likely to be troubled about. When you walk home late at night, you dont have to sweat because you see a group of girls walking your way......now reverse it. You a girl my age and you see a group of guys walking your way.

We get sick of ...'oh u women complain about nothing'.....despite the fact we know, that you know, that rape and domestic violence and child pornography is rife and increasing. My friends and I dont get why you lot trivialise us. What are we to conclude but that its just plain vindictiveness.

He? You're referring to Black Ribbon? He is actually a SHE. See, she's even a woman and see's the ridiculous of how some people make something out of nothing.

 

[Zoii]

He? You're referring to Black Ribbon? He is actually a SHE. See, she's even a woman and see's the ridiculous of how some people make something out of nothing.

She or He - there is nothing ridiculous about the feminist arguments I raised. You can trivialise them - and I see you continue to. Most decent people though acknowledge rape and domestic violence and child pornography and honour killings and laws that restrict specifically women...as being unfair and immoral. How you continue to argue to the contrary is disconcerting.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

She or He - there is nothing ridiculous about the feminist arguments I raised. You can trivialise them - and I see you continue to. Most decent people though acknowledge rape and domestic violence and child pornography and honour killings and laws that restrict specifically women...as being unfair and immoral. How you continue to argue to the contrary is disconcerting.

Listen, it's not that I don't acknowledge at all that although tragic, it does happen. But there are some people who do legitimately cry wolf or cry out or play the victim card in an unnecessarily.

Take the case of comedian Aziz Ansari, which was actually debunked when the woman tried to sling mud his direction. Her argument was weak since it was consential and Aziz did respect her when she decided to cease..and she left.

Chris Hardwick was re-instated on AMC when his ex wouldn't come forward for his investigation.

 

[Zoii]

Listen, it's not that I don't acknowledge at all that although tragic, it does happen. But there are some people who do legitimately cry wolf or cry out or play the victim card in an unnecessarily.

Take the case of comedian Aziz Ansari, which was actually debunked when the woman tried to sling mud his direction.

So if teen feminists such as myself raise concerns over rape and violence against us...over child porn and slavery.... your reponse is to mitigate and anul the issues by citing some example you have where the defendant was innocent?

Have you look at your own nation's stats on violence against women - do you care or has your 'cry wolf' example got you turning your back - You know it worries me that here - on CF - where I expect to find the better calibre of men - that men can say Ok it does happen...but its probably mostly cry wolf........ Can you imagine what message you are sending? If your view yourself as a leader - what exactly is your message to me? - meh you lil teen #$$@% all lie when you're raped so...

 

[High Fidelity]

Well while you consider feminist concerns such as child molestation, rape and violence as trivial; feminists such as myself dont. Im sure you might change your mind when your pinned down and have a penis thrust into your rectum. If that occurs please be assured I wont be calling you 'pathetic' and 'ridiculous' in the same way you have.

Oh dear. Overreaction, much?

I have nothing against with sane feminism, but that's few and far between nowadays and please, don't mischaracterise those problems as female-specific. Men are also subject to molestation, rape and violence too.

What I don't have time for are the 'oppressed' women that think women are discriminated against because of the most ridiculous ideas.

Getting bare-chested and screaming bloody murder because your brother left the toilet seat up isn't going to encourage people to consider the argument of the wailing banshee.

 

[Zoii]

Oh dear. Overreaction, much?

I have nothing against with sane feminism, but that's few and far between nowadays and please, don't mischaracterise those problems as female-specific. Men are also subject to molestation, rape and violence too.

What I don't have time for are the 'oppressed' women that think women are discriminated against because of the most ridiculous ideas.

Getting bare-chested and screaming bloody murder because your brother left the toilet seat up isn't going to encourage people to consider the argument of the wailing banshee.

Well now your just trivialising serious concerns - have you ever seen a protest over a toilet seat - No you haven't - If you have to lower yourself to making statements that clearly you don't believe yourself, then it only serves to dismiss your opinion to the realms of the gutter. Let's rise above that. Opinion is fine is its tempered with actual fact. The facts I have referred to are easily accessible through your local law enforcement site - Rape, child molestation, domestic violence, honour killings, chid bride etc....these are serious concerns and just causes.

Your best statement was when you said they are human concerns. Feminist issues that predominate affect everyone, though of course, they affect women most of all. I ask you to back off from petty insults and come back to the issues that worry young feminsts such as myself, and treat them with the respect they deserve.

 

[blackribbon]

The incidence of child sexual abuse, rape and domestic violence is more prevalent now than it ever has. These are things that matter to girls in my generation and they are most commonly perpetrated by men of your generation.

Your attempt to trivialise that, is a matter for your conscience to deal with.



Whats ironic is it is not my generation that is exposed for its depraved acts - It is your generation.

It is YOUR generation that is being dragged to jail for child pornography, sexual assault, domestic violence, child grooming. It is NOT my generation committing those offences - Its YOURS.

On the rare occasions I have been to a Teen Chat Room, it's dirty old men from YOUR cohort that hound the teens with requests of sexting and wanting to be viewed masturbating their shrunken penises on Cam ... and its funny how many of them have IDs indicating they are good Christian men - does any of this ring a bell to you? Regardless the crime stats uphold all that I say.

And if its how we dress - well its you old guys that were hippies . . . enough said

So the irony here is that either you have forgotten those details OR you deliberately attempted to malign me and my generation in a vain attempt to deflect the undeniable facts reported by your local crime agency - rape, domestic violence, paedophilia, pornography.



Well each will attempt to engage change according to their capacity. For my part, I am doing a science degree and am pre-law. When I grad law I will do a postgrad in International law.

But if the activist wants to wear a t-shirt to raise awareness...or just donate money... or maybe hand out pamphlets...that's all good...your attempt to demean those attempts at helping women who suffer is very undignified of you.



This last statement shows you really have no understanding of what wage equality is. In western nations, a woman will receive the same wage as a man for doing the same job (mostly), but its NOT the case in developing nations.

Wage equality in western nations is more about the wage difference between vocations. A predominantly female role eg Child Carer; will receive a far lower salary than a predominantly male role eg welder. Now this has been reviewed statistically correlating work value with wages. Its not an out of date, ill-informed view from a grumpy old person. Its the statistical analysis of wage parity that has occurred in every nation.

My experience with the "modern" feminists is that most are not very concerned with the status of the women in 3rd world countries. They are focused on 1st world countries. And issues I was talking about was the naked seductive pics or posted on social media that were sent to teenage boys from teenage girls on their phones in my kid's generation (your generation).

The annual Women's March in Washington has never been about international issues, it is about 1st world issues...and mostly ones that are not really issues anymore. No one has asked me about my sexual identity at any job interview...they aren't even legally allowed to ask me about my age or my marital status or if I have children. Abortion is already legal...as well as birth control. Currently birth control is free and most public health services offer abortions at a reduced cost, same as their precious Planned Parenthood which's primary purpose is abortion unlike the public health services which also offers mammograms and prenatal care (PP only gives referrals and does require payment for their services).

Good luck with your fight against international inequalities. I hope you are successful and women are no longer treated as second class human beings...and can drive cars, own property, and no longer have to hid behind headscarves, and aren't sold into sex slavery and instead are valued as equal human people in the sight of man as well as God. The fact that you think nothing of your right to study science and go into international law shows that women are now allowed to be "equals" in the US. 100 years ago, that would not be allowed. I was one of the first generations where women were considered equals in the education and work world. (Well, I actually had an prof say in my freshman Engineering 101 class that education was wasted on women since we were going to leave the work world and raise kids anyway...and it was one of my female classmates who he declared one of the most brilliant people he had ever had as an student research assistant and changed his mind about women (our senior year). However, how he felt personally, he never showed it in how he taught or treated women in he classes (he was tough on everyone).

Again, I have never been talking about child abuse or sex crimes. Those have existed almost from the dawn of time and will probably always be an issue. What is different is that they are no longer considered socially acceptable in 1st world countries nor are legal practices. I applaud your goals into going into the 3rd world countries to try to change their cultures. This is a human issue and not a "feminist" issue or platform. It isn't just women who are affected and harmed by these practices.

 

[blackribbon]

Here's something we both do whole-heartedly agree on, Black R. The thing is though, these young feminazis (not sure if that word is appropriate here). They WILL tell you that they feel they reserve the right not to be harassed, even though they are showing off certain body parts.

I recall an altercation a good male friend of mine had with some young feminist. It was so odd that she popped up on his feed. Apparently, it was "National Breast Cancer Awareness" month, and he posted a meme that said, "It's NBC month, so...please mammogram them and don't Instagram them!"

This girl, who apparently is some cosplay model/cosplayer in the geek/sci-fi community went off on him. He's a friend of a father of this woman. He's much older than this gal.

She's like "It's my body, I can do what I want with it without having to deal with the harassment" or
something to the effect.

He was like "Woah, where'd this come from?! Calm down woman!"

I completely agree that is wrong and seems to be one of the "false" issues of "modern" feminists. I do not believe that rape is ever "okay" but I have issues with women who go half naked in public, dance like they are having sex, and then get themselves too drunk to know if they maybe did consent...and then cry rape. We have to take responsibility for our actions and behave appropriately. My daughter cos-plays and I am just as vocal with her about some of her cosplays that are borderline but become more sexual because she has a very nice shape. We have to own how we present ourselves to other people. And people around you have just as much of a right to comment as you do to wear what you want to wear. Ideas and thoughts are not one-sided.

I also have posted and been verbally abused when I posted on "feminist" sites that things like going topless in support of breast cancer awareness month are not support for women who have lost their breasts or have had them surgically deformed to save their lives. Showing your boobs does not make a person without them feel better and it just highlights how they are an important part of being a women in our society.

 

[Zoii]

This was a good reply - Thanks - I'll attempt to do your answer justice.

And issues I was talking about was the naked seductive pics or posted on social media that were sent to teenage boys from teenage girls on their phones in my kid's generation (your generation).

Unfortunately, this isn't a 'younger generation' issue. perhaps you are already aware, but if not, simply go to either an adult or teen chat room and you will note it is crowded with over 40s men wanting to sext and show their genitals on cam.

That said - I also do my lil bit in educating girls in my gender. Without trying to sound conceited.... I'm pretty and I'm intelligent - that helps when I talk to younger teens as part of my university culture club activities. I talk about things they just don't hear much about- I team up with a lawyer and we talk about:

• How to lower your chances of being sexually assaulted
• what to do if you have been sexually assaulted
• we talk about sex and the law including sexting and camming
• we talk about contraception and abortion and options outside of abortion, as well as STDs
• But just as importantly we try to talk about attitudes that result in harm. Drinking and drugs being amongst it.

it is about 1st world issues...and mostly ones that are not really issues anymore.

Its good to hear that some of the more serious issues are not prevalent - except well - they still are in western countries - ie sexual assault, paedophilia, child pornography etc are increasing statistically not decreasing. Those issues are not exclusive to women though, of course, they certainly occur for women with a far greater frequency. You said at one point these types of issues are not exclusive to feminism. I agree. Its something a lot of feminists has been saying for decades ie the issues affecting women affect everyone...which is why I am puzzled why there is such an adversarial response, particularly from Christian men.

Another issue is wage parity. This refers to an analysis of vocational value versus wage. In all developed nations, vocations that are predominantly female based, receive lower wages when compared to similar work-value vocations predominated by males.

So yea - thanks to those before me - there's still a job to do

The fact that you think nothing of your right to study science and go into international law shows that women are now allowed to be "equals" in the US. 100 years ago, that would not be allowed

Well, I sure dont think nothing of it - but I get your point. The benefits I have today are the result of women that have gone before me - even the right to vote.

OK as to Cos Play - you're a mum and so heck - I'm not going to argue the point on that one - all I can say is that CosPlay is so much fun - no drugs or anything sinister - just dressing up - but look I get your a mum and so you don't want to see your girl in anything too risque. I get it.

Now as to me injecting into developing nations - I hadn't considered that. I'd been thinking more in terms of women who arrive to my country from developing nations with a host of legal issues that we've discussed before.

My last point on all this: I see examples where feminism is mocked for issues that the poster considers inappropriate. Eg they may cite an example of an unfair MeToo accusation. All l I can say is that feminism isn't some one-fit stereotype. When a person says I am a Republican supporter, it doesn't mean they support every single thing a fellow Republican utters. A Republican can say 'let's kill all refugees'. That does not mean all Republicans share that view or that its a central tenet of what being a Republican is...... The same applies to me and my identity as a teenage feminist.

 

[blackribbon]

I think we believe in mostly the same things, however, I do not believe that being against sexual assault, paedophilia, child pornography, etc...are what defines someone of being a "feminist". These are crimes that harm people, families, women, children and even men. I don't think that most males believe these activities are "manly" or "okay". I also don't see many groups or individuals who define themselves as "modern feminists" are making these priority topics.

And as a mom of a daughter who cosplays, I have no problem with it. My daughter has fun, has made some fantastic friends, she has learned to sew very well, and can speak some Japanese. My issue is when anime crosses over into porn in a comic form. And if you really are anti-child porn, you need to decide if the skirts were a couple inches shorter or the necklines covered a bit more cleavage...would it really change the story line? I do believe that since most of the characters do look very childlike, that this may be a form of child porn. At conventions, while many of the cosplays are just fine...there are definitely those that would be considered hooker like.

 

[Zoii]

And as a mom of a daughter who cosplays, I have no problem with it. My daughter has fun, has made some fantastic friends, she has learned to sew very well, and can speak some Japanese.

haha that's fantastic - yeah they are such great fun.

My issue is when anime crosses over into porn in a comic form. And if you really are anti-child porn, you need to decide if the skirts were a couple inches shorter or the necklines covered a bit more cleavage

there's no way I'm arguing with a mum on that one

I'll agree that some can be quite sexualised and I dont support that if an area has kids attending it. Most of it isnt like that though and is just dressing up and having fun. Better to be running around with water pistols all dressed up then hanging out at some mall with drugs.

Your daughter though sounds like shes great and has it all together.

 

[blackribbon]

haha that's fantastic - yeah they are such great fun.


there's no way I'm arguing with a mum on that one

I'll agree that some can be quite sexualised and I dont support that if an area has kids attending it. Most of it isnt like that though and is just dressing up and having fun. Better to be running around with water pistols all dressed up then hanging out at some mall with drugs.

Your daughter though sounds like shes great and has it all together.

If you don't believe that there is alcohol and drugs at cosplay conventions, it is you who is a bit naive. There is a reason why their are "over 18" rooms and sessions. However, I do like it as a platform that allows socially awkward to be able to interact socially with those who are not. I'd suggest that hanging around at some mall with drugs isn't the only other option for teens either.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

Wage equality in western nations is more about the wage difference between vocations. A predominantly female role eg Child Carer; will receive a far lower salary than a predominantly male role eg welder. Now this has been reviewed statistically correlating work value with wages. Its not an out of date, ill-informed view from a grumpy old person. Its the statistical analysis of wage parity that has occurred in every nation.

Another issue is wage parity. This refers to an analysis of vocational value versus wage. In all developed nations, vocations that are predominantly female based, receive lower wages when compared to similar work-value vocations predominated by males.

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, employment is a completely free market, and it's pretty much totally equal opportunities. The example occupations you gave of Child Carer and Welder are equal opportunities in that they are both open to men and women. Legislation is in place to outlaw paying different rates of pay to people doing the same job. We already have equal opportunities and equal pay for the same work, and for the main part the system of interviewing applicants and making job offers is strictly meritocratic. I don't really see what could be fairer than that.

What modern feminists seem to want is equality of outcome, regardless of career choices made. Of course modern feminists are entitled to hold that view, but in my opinion demanding equality of outcome is a minority position, and most people would consider equality of opportunity to be the pinnacle of fairness and representative of true equality. If someone desires the working environment, pay, terms, and conditions of a Child Carer, they must train as and seek employment as a Child Carer. If someone desires the working environment, pay, terms, and conditions of a Welder, they must train as and seek employment as a Welder.

 

[blackribbon]

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, employment is a completely free market, and it's pretty much totally equal opportunities. The example occupations you gave of Child Carer and Welder are equal opportunities in that they are both open to men and women. Legislation is in place to outlaw paying different rates of pay to people doing the same job. We already have equal opportunities and equal pay for the same work, and for the main part the system of interviewing applicants and making job offers is strictly meritocratic. I don't really see what could be fairer than that.

What modern feminists seem to want is equality of outcome, regardless of career choices made. Of course modern feminists are entitled to hold that view, but in my opinion demanding equality of outcome is a minority position, and most people would consider equality of opportunity to be the pinnacle of fairness and representative of true equality. If someone desires the working environment, pay, terms, and conditions of a Child Carer, they must train as and seek employment as a Child Carer. If someone desires the working environment, pay, terms, and conditions of a Welder, they must train as and seek employment as a Welder.

It is the same in the US. Male and female nurses make the same wages. Male and female doctors make the same wages. Doctors (both sexes) make more than nurses (same sexes). Both careers are different with different responsibilities and training. And female dominant careers such as nurses and teachers often make more money than a wearhouse man. As a new nurse, my starting hourly pay was higher than my husbands pay after 10 years working as a professional driver...though my total income is limited because I am only allowed to work 36 hrs (3 twelve hour shifts) per week and he often worked 55 hour weeks.

If you want the same pay as some higher paying job that is traditionally a male job, train for that job (this goes for women and men). I do have issue with the idea that McDonald's worker should be paid more than my Nursing Assistants who spend their hours cleaning up diarrhea and walking elderly or post op patients or EMT/Ambulance drivers get paid. Luckily, the Nurses Assistants and EMTs take pride in their work and don't just do it for a paycheck.

How much a lawyer makes is dependent on who they choose to represent. Someone representing immigrants form 3rd world countries probably won't make as much as one who represents multi-million dollar companies...and that also won't have anything to do with if the lawyer is male or female.

 

[Zoii]

The example occupations you gave of Child Carer and Welder are equal opportunities in that they are both open to men and women. Legislation is in place to outlaw paying different rates of pay to people doing the same job. We already have equal opportunities and equal pay for the same work, and for the main part the system of interviewing applicants and making job offers is strictly meritocratic. I don't really see what could be fairer than that.

Then you totally misunderstand what feminists refer to when they refer to wage parity.
It is NOT that two people are paid a different rate of pay because of gender. Just as you said, there is legislation in place in many countries to ensure salary is set according to the vocational award and NOT gender. If you think this is what feminists refer to then you totally misunderstand the concept and are listening to the wrong people.

What it refers to is parity in terms of work value. When Industrial Commissions examined vocations they found that a vocation that is predominated by women is paid lower than a vocation predominated by men, and that this is independent of work-value. In other words, a job that female-dominated will be paid less, than a job dominated by men, even when the work-value of the female-dominated job is rated more highly. This is consistent in every single western nation. In developing nations the effect is even greater.

What modern feminists seem to want is equality of outcome, regardless of career choices made

Then again you haven't actually read feminist theory as that's NOT what's wanted. And who are these modern feminists you refer to - is there a modern feminist club? How do I join? Im a teen and a feminist - surely I have to be a modern feminist. Where do I get the badge? Or is there a hat I can wear?