Thoughts about using a KJV update?

[Religiot]

Then why not learn the original Greek and Hebrew?

I don't object to learning the old Greek and Hebrew, it's just not practical; moreover, I believe God provided His word in all languages, not just the Greek and Hebrew--the first act of the Holy Ghost for the Church, as a whole, was to break the language barrier: it's unlikely that that barrier has been reestablished.

Therefore, I rely solely on the meaning of what I read and hear: by comparing concepts with precepts, and precepts with precepts, I can see and hear the harmony in the whole, and thus I am at peace with what I understand.

No other method have I found to settle the questions in my mind, than to harmonize the scriptures with the scriptures, and with nature.

There is no nature apart from God, save only that which is corrupt.

Harmony, that's the only way to recognize sound doctrine, period.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

But it's the KJV that was given directly by God to the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness after God saved them from slavery in Egypt. It came down from heaven with the quail and manna, and the Hebrew and Greek languages (as well as Aramaic) are obviously a deception from Satan to interfere with the true language of God....KJV English.

I know, and Jesus handed out KJV NTs with his words in red with zippered covers in "real imitation leather"!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Do you think in those languages? I'm curious.

I dont read Hebrew but being Orthodox, the Masoretic text is not our OT, the Septuagint Greek is. I spend at least 3-4 hours a week with the Greek services and our own translation as a psalti. I can't translate on the fly anymore.

 

[Direct Driver]

But it's the KJV that was given directly by God to the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness after God saved them from slavery in Egypt. It came down from heaven with the quail and manna, and the Hebrew and Greek languages (as well as Aramaic) are obviously a deception from Satan to interfere with the true language of God....KJV English.

And it came with a free Noble Fir Christmas tree. When they asked what it was for, he said, "I'll tell you later."

 

[Direct Driver]

But it's the KJV that was given directly by God to the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness after God saved them from slavery in Egypt. It came down from heaven with the quail and manna, and the Hebrew and Greek languages (as well as Aramaic) are obviously a deception from Satan to interfere with the true language of God....KJV English.

You laugh, but I was reading a thread from a CI vs ECT youtube video where the video creator said that he trusted the KJV more than the original Greek and Hebrew. I thought he was joking and responded accordingly. But he was not joking.

 

[Dave L]

You laugh, but I was reading a thread from a CI vs ECT youtube video where the video creator said that he trusted the KJV more than the original Greek and Hebrew. I thought he was joking and responded accordingly. But he was not joking.

Ancient greek has several shades of meaning for each word. So he probably means he thinks the translators called it right where many do not.

 

[Direct Driver]

Ancient greek has several shades of meaning for each word. So he probably means he thinks the translators called it right where many do not.

Yes. it was along those lines. I really enjoy the teaching of Dr. Michael Heiser. He gets into the weeds on that very concept. He also describes "context" as including not just the chapter a verse is in, but the book it's in as well as the culture and trials of the people for whom it was written at the time.

I had a friend that was KJV only because of a ridiculously complex fairy tale about how the original Greek and Hebrew was correctly interpreted.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. it was along those lines. I really enjoy the teaching of Dr. Michael Heiser. He gets into the weeds on that very concept. He also describes "context" as including not just the chapter a verse is in, but the book it's in as well as the culture and trials of the people for whom it was written at the time.

I had a friend that was KJV only because of a ridiculously complex fairy tale about how the original Greek and Hebrew was correctly interpreted.

I have some of Heiser's books. Very interesting on the invisible realm.

 

[Direct Driver]

I have some of Heiser's books. Very interesting on the invisible realm.

It's kinda comical in my case. My daughter and her husband are pretty strong humanists. He's actaully Isreali (but american citizen) and is a huge fan of Sam Harris. They got me to get a Stitcher account and subscribe to him. When he's not speaking about religion he's very, very good. But he goes off the rails on Christianity. Jordan Peterson handed him his butt in a debate I watched.

But it's comical because now that I have a podcast app, I thought I'd look for something regarding Christianity to listen to on my long commute. I came across something called "the Naked Bible podcast". And that was the beginning... I've not listened to Harris in a couple of years. It's ALL Naked Bible. Except I've been working from home almost a year so it's more internet focused now. And Unseen Realm is a real eye opener.

BTW, that speaks to the OP. How does the KJV translate Psalm 82:1? With the exception of the quotes, I think it does a pretty good job, but I prefer the ESV use of the phrase "the divine council".

 

[Dave L]

It's kinda comical in my case. My daughter and her husband are pretty strong humanists. He's actaully Isreali (but american citizen) and is a huge fan of Sam Harris. They got me to get a Stitcher account and subscribe to him. When he's not speaking about religion he's very, very good. But he goes off the rails on Christianity. Jordan Peterson handed him his butt in a debate I watched.

But it's comical because now that I have a podcast app, I thought I'd look for something regarding Christianity to listen to on my long commute. I came across something called "the Naked Bible podcast". And that was the beginning... I've not listened to Harris in a couple of years. It's ALL Naked Bible. Except I've been working from home almost a year so it's more internet focused now. And Unseen Realm is a real eye opener.

BTW, that speaks to the OP. How does the KJV translate Psalm 82:1? With the exception of the quotes, I think it does a pretty good job, but I prefer the ESV use of the phrase "the divine council".

I see more depth in the ESV translation in this case.

 

[Direct Driver]

I see more depth in the ESV translation in this case.

I really love that we can quickly access all versions of the bible, as well as a myriad of bible study tools. I've gone on record as saying that the invention of the printing press gave us the reformation. This is because as the information is made more public and experts can more easily communicate, knowledge and wisdom expands. And the invention of the internet is the same thing on steroids. It has and will continue to purify Christian teaching and Christianity in general.

The ECT vs CI debate is a perfect example. Before the internet, CI was considered a radical, fringe belief. But now that both sides are given an equal forum to present and discuss the merits of their case, ECT is severely struggling to remain relevant. And that is just one, obvious example. And getting to what the bible ACTUALLY says and means is a very, VERY good thing.

 

[BibleBeliever5]

Thank you for all the comments and feedback! For those of you who have indicated that you are positive towards a KJV update, what do you think about having a parallel Bible with the current KJV compared to a standalone update? (Please take the poll if you have not yet so we can see what lots of people think.)

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I don't object to learning the old Greek and Hebrew, it's just not practical; moreover, I believe God provided His word in all languages, not just the Greek and Hebrew--the first act of the Holy Ghost for the Church, as a whole, was to break the language barrier: it's unlikely that that barrier has been reestablished.
Harmony, that's the only way to recognize sound doctrine, period.

And completely understandable. Whenever I see someone post something about the KJV, generally it is a view about that no translation is good enough. So that's why I ask about just learning Greek and Hebrew.

Any translations need updating as terms and meanings change. Even in Greek, entire verb tenses dropped out of use over the centuries. So a modern Greek Bible is just about its own translation. As long as a translation is accurate and the translators recognize their biases or explain, why in some passage, they chose a particular phrase or word, I'm pretty happy with it. Translation is both art and science. If you are translating a psalm, a translator might want try for a poetic phrase rather than just word for word. Hence the beauty of the KJV and why the Psalms are so well recognized. For example, for Psalm 51:19, "Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar." The word for burnt offering is ὁλοκαυτώματα or holocautomata. So translating literally, as we have in one of our service books, it is holocausts, which of course now, has its own significance.

 

[Direct Driver]

And completely understandable. Whenever I see someone post something about the KJV, generally it is a view about that no translation is good enough. So that's why I ask about just learning Greek and Hebrew.

Any translations need updating as terms and meanings change. Even in Greek, entire verb tenses dropped out of use over the centuries. So a modern Greek Bible is just about its own translation. As long as a translation is accurate and the translators recognize their biases or explain, why in some passage, they chose a particular phrase or word, I'm pretty happy with it. Translation is both art and science. If you are translating a psalm, a translator might want try for a poetic phrase rather than just word for word. Hence the beauty of the KJV and why the Psalms are so well recognized. For example, for Psalm 51:19, "Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar." The word for burnt offering is ὁλοκαυτώματα or holocautomata. So translating literally, as we have in one of our service books, it is holocausts, which of course now, has its own significance.

I think all "non-original-language" translations include a lot of interpretations by the translator. I heard an excellent hypothetical used for this: Imagine you are assigned the task of translating a novel from some other language into English. In this hypothetical language, they use the same word to mean "key" and "elephant". Now, you get to a sentence where this word is used. Let's say the word is xyz. So, you've translated it into the English sentence "He slipped the xyz under the door." So, should you replace xyz with "key", or "elephant"? Obviously elephant doesn't work, and key works perfectly.

The problem in the bible is that there are many situations that are MUCH more subtle. A big one is things like "forever", "eternal", etc. But there are many others. There are many places in the bible where "forever" meant an exceedingly short period of time, but it's the word the translator(s) used.

To me, no translation is "perfect", but only God is perfect. The human beings that wrote and translated got it done well, from a human perspective. That's why it seems to contradict itself (did the rooster crow once, or twice?). It's excellent. And in the human realm, perfection is the enemy of excellence.

 

[Dave L]

Thank you for all the comments and feedback! For those of you who have indicated that you are positive towards a KJV update, what do you think about having a parallel Bible with the current KJV compared to a standalone update? (Please take the poll if you have not yet so we can see what lots of people think.)

I have one that's very rare today called the Dixon Bible. It uses the American Standard bible for alternate translations.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Look up any parallel Bible, these might have 2-4 different translations. They can be useful when seeing how different verses might be translated. For example, Μονόκερως, is translated literally by the KJV as unicorn, while other translations will provide the better word, rhinoceros.

 

[Religiot]

And completely understandable. Whenever I see someone post something about the KJV, generally it is a view about that no translation is good enough. So that's why I ask about just learning Greek and Hebrew.

Any translations need updating as terms and meanings change. Even in Greek, entire verb tenses dropped out of use over the centuries. So a modern Greek Bible is just about its own translation. As long as a translation is accurate and the translators recognize their biases or explain, why in some passage, they chose a particular phrase or word, I'm pretty happy with it. Translation is both art and science. If you are translating a psalm, a translator might want try for a poetic phrase rather than just word for word. Hence the beauty of the KJV and why the Psalms are so well recognized. For example, for Psalm 51:19, "Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar." The word for burnt offering is ὁλοκαυτώματα or holocautomata. So translating literally, as we have in one of our service books, it is holocausts, which of course now, has its own significance.

Holocaust still just means whole burnt offering. What it means politically, does not alter what the word itself means.

It must be by harmony, not by the individual meaning of words, but by what the intended communication was by the author.

Only by harmonizing the scriptures can sound doctrine be attained: this is not by any translator, but by those who hear and do His word.

 

[BibleBeliever5]

If there were a simple (minimal), accurate update to the KJV, would you consider that inferior or superior to other versions that use modern English (like the NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, NRSV)?

 

[pescador]

If there were a simple (minimal), accurate update to the KJV, would you consider that inferior or superior to other versions that use modern English (like the NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, NRSV)?

Inferior. There have been many more source documents in Hebrew/Aramaic/Koine Greek that have been discovered in the last 400+ years that have given translators greater insight into those languages than they had in 1611.

What is an accurate update?

 

[BibleBeliever5]

Inferior. There have been many more source documents in Hebrew/Aramaic/Koine Greek that have been discovered in the last 400+ years that have given translators greater insight into those languages than they had in 1611.

What is an accurate update?

By an accurate update I mean an update that accurately updates the language of the KJV.