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Would you use a KJV update?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Probably

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Probably not

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16

pescador

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Update??? Is there something wrong with the original???

Yes, a lot. It is written in a form of English that is not in use any more and therefore not clearly understood by modern readers. Also, it is based on the only source texts available 400+ years ago, as well as the English translations that preceded it.

There are quite a few alternatives that are based on better source texts and written in English that we all use and understand. That equals a better understanding of God's word than we could ever have using a translation that is outdated, flawed, and poorly interpreted.
 
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Davy

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Hi, I would love to hear the community’s feedback about using an update to the King James Version. I love the KJV. But the language is basically 400 year-old English. So if there were a simple, accurate, and high quality update to the KJV that made no changes except updating the old language, would you want to use it? What would be your thoughts generally about such an update? Would you like it as a stand alone version, or as a parallel Bible with the current KJV? It would be great to hear what you all think. May God be glorified.

(I edited my post to clarify the issue based on replies by the community. Thanks!)

Most that use the KJV are already using an 'update' of it. I don't personally know anyone using the 'original' Old English King James, which is the actual original version.

The original 1st edition of the 1611 KJV Bible can still be purchased by Nelson Publishers in Nashville, Tennessee. It has a letter by the translators to King James, and another to the Reader involving issues with the translation. It also contains the Apocrypha. And the translators put various margin notes in the side margin for clarifications.
 
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robycop3

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I wouldn't use an updated KJV, as the makers of the KJV are all dead, & their version is what it is, same as I wouldn't use updated versions of Shakespeare's works. When the last of those men died, their work was frozen in time.

However, I don't use the KJV hardly at all, anyway. Besides its outdated language, it's full of goofs & booboos, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4 & the ADDITION of the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5, words which are NOT found in that verse in any known ancient Scriptural manuscript.

The NKJV is a more-than-adequate replacement, even though it copies the KJV goof in this passage. But it corrects many of the KJV's goofs & booboos, including one in Job 17:6.
 
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robycop3

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But it's the KJV that was given directly by God to the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness after God saved them from slavery in Egypt. It came down from heaven with the quail and manna, and the Hebrew and Greek languages (as well as Aramaic) are obviously a deception from Satan to interfere with the true language of God....KJV English.
I hope this was written in sarcasm.
 
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Davy

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I wouldn't use an updated KJV, as the makers of the KJV are all dead, & their version is what it is, same as I wouldn't use updated versions of Shakespeare's works. When the last of those men died, their work was frozen in time.

However, I don't use the KJV hardly at all, anyway. Besides its outdated language, it's full of goofs & booboos, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4 & the ADDITION of the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5, words which are NOT found in that verse in any known ancient Scriptural manuscript.

The NKJV is a more-than-adequate replacement, even though it copies the KJV goof in this passage. But it corrects many of the KJV's goofs & booboos, including one in Job 17:6.

The NKJV is a corrupt version, leaves out whole verses that are in the original KJV. Doing that makes it a whole 'other' translation, and not just another 1611 KJV. Later Bible versions of the New Testament don't even use the same Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used. So the modern Bible versions can't even be equally compared to the KJV.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I hope this was written in sarcasm.

Well Jesus handed out copies of the KJV with His words in red in nice imitation leather zippered sets!
 
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pescador

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The NKJV is a corrupt version, leaves out whole verses that are in the original KJV. Doing that makes it a whole 'other' translation, and not just another 1611 KJV. Later Bible versions of the New Testament don't even use the same Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used. So the modern Bible versions can't even be equally compared to the KJV.

When you write "modern Bible versions can't even be equally compared to the KJV" that is so true! The KJV is based on the very few manuscripts available to the translators, as well as the versions that preceded it. (They even cite those works in the preface).

As far as leaving out whole verses that are in the original KJV, those verses have poor evidence of having been in the source documents; they were most probably added by scribes. Here is an example...

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." NET, NIV, and others.

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." KJV

TRANSLATORS' FOOTNOTE
The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in M.

If you want to throw out sound Biblical scholarship that is your choice. I believe the experts who have devoted their careers to giving us the best, most accurate Bible translation.
 
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robycop3

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The NKJV is a corrupt version, leaves out whole verses that are in the original KJV. Doing that makes it a whole 'other' translation, and not just another 1611 KJV. Later Bible versions of the New Testament don't even use the same Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used. So the modern Bible versions can't even be equally compared to the KJV.

Please show us what verses have been left out.

The KJV is full of goofs & booboos. "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is an obvious one. And the ADDITION of the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5 is another. Please show us an ancient Koine greek Scriptural manuscript with those words in that verse.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I love the fact that the KJV is Old English, cause so's our legal system: it seems very fitting that we have the laws of God in Old English and the laws of this land in the same.

It seems very profitable to seek to understand King James English, for both spiritual profit and secular.

Thus, I would object to using an updated version, even if every word would be left in it's place.

Just a nitpick, but the KJV isn't Old English. The original 1611 KJV was in Jacobean English, a variety of Early Modern English, though the KJV virtually everyone familiar with today is an updated text from the mid 1700's.

Old English is also known as Anglo-Saxon, it's the phase of the English language from the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 6th century until the advent of Middle English following the Norman Conquest. Middle English is the English of John Wycliffe and Chaucer. Early Modern English arose in the 16th century, it's the English of William Tyndale, Shakespeare, Milton, and the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.

The modern KJV from the mid 1700s stays true to its Early Modern English lexicon but also was published in the early phase of Modern English. For perspective, the modern KJV didn't exist until 1769, only 7 years before the start of the American colonies' war for independence against Great Britain.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Also, many (perhaps most?) of our modern English Bibles are either updates or part of a family of updates/revisions of the KJV. There are exceptions of course, such as the NIV, but everything from the ASV, RSV, NRSV, ESV are all part of a tradition of revision and updating to the KJV.

As far as a purely linguistic update, my understanding is that the NKJV serves this role, and does so pretty well.

I think the KJV has some fundamental flaws, and so while I don't have a problem with the KJV (I think its prose is quite lovely), but a good translation should be more than a purely update to an older translation--it should seek to provide as faithful a translation as possible, and utilize the best readings from our manuscript sources. Though, of course, there will always be disputes over what readings are best.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Religiot

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Also, many (perhaps most?) of our modern English Bibles are either updates or part of a family of updates/revisions of the KJV. There are exceptions of course, such as the NIV, but everything from the ASV, RSV, NRSV, ESV are all part of a tradition of revision and updating to the KJV.

As far as a purely linguistic update, my understanding is that the NKJV serves this role, and does so pretty well.

I think the KJV has some fundamental flaws, and so while I don't have a problem with the KJV (I think its prose is quite lovely), but a good translation should be more than a purely update to an older translation--it should seek to provide as faithful a translation as possible, and utilize the best readings from our manuscript sources. Though, of course, there will always be disputes over what readings are best.

-CryptoLutheran
I think the Cambridge KJV Cameo Reference Edition with Apocrypha, is the best English bible in the world, today.
 
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pescador

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The OP is about using a KJV update. Every KJV translation since 1611 can be considered an update. (The 1611 KJV was itself an update of earlier English translations). Fortunately, since there are literally thousands of texts from the time of the NT (as well as earlier) available in modern times, modern translations are much more accurate than the KJV.
 
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Halbhh

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Hi, I would love to hear the community’s feedback about using an update to the King James Version. I love the KJV. But the language is basically 400 year-old English. So if there were a simple, accurate, and high quality update to the KJV that made no changes except updating the old language, would you want to use it? What would be your thoughts generally about such an update? Would you like it as a stand alone version, or as a parallel Bible with the current KJV? It would be great to hear what you all think. May God be glorified.

(I edited my post to clarify the issue based on replies by the community. Thanks!)
Actually, the ESV (English Standard Version) is a pretty good solution to what you want.

(I've read fully though the Bible in the KJV by the way, so I'm not just guessing)

The ESV is very accurate (considered by many to be the most accurate around), and keeps the wonderful transcendent quality of the word-for-word rendering of the sources, without being opaque.

Because of the wonderful transcendent quality of the original source wording, many paraphrasing versions, such as the NLT (new 'living' translation, which is oddly non-living actually), do very poorly (or even mangle the text at crucial moments). So you'd want to avoid most any modern paraphrase version.
 
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pescador

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Actually, the ESV (English Standard Version) is a pretty good solution to what you want.

(I've read fully though the Bible in the KJV by the way, so I'm not just guessing)

The ESV is very accurate (considered by many to be the most accurate around), and keeps the wonderful transcendent quality of the word-for-word rendering of the sources, without being opaque.

Because of the wonderful transcendent quality of the original source wording, many paraphrasing versions, such as the NLT (new 'living' translation, which is oddly non-living actually), do very poorly (or even mangle the text at crucial moments). So you'd want to avoid most any modern paraphrase version.

All translations are paraphrases, including the KJV and the ESV. It is impossible to translate the ancient languages literally. The vocabulary, syntax, idioms, etc. of the ancient languages are very different than modern English (and other languages). Translators, many of whom have devoted their lives to the art/science of translation, must make informed choices about how to best render the Bible texts. Even the Septuagint, the Bible in use at the time of Jesus and the Apostles, was a translation.

The NLT that you criticize is intended to be a simple-to-read rendition of the Bible for those who aren't very fluent in English. It doesn't "mangle" the text any more than any other translation; it achieves the goal of being the easiest translation to understand. It was the first Bible that I ever used, and as a result I became a Christian. (And I have a Master's degree.)

I can criticize the ESV for its obvious translators' doctrinal bias, but I won't. It has its strong and weak points, just like every other translation.

The purpose of any translation is the comprehension of the Word of God by the reader. That is the reason that the KJV fails most modern readers and leads to serious misinterpretations. The great majority of modern translations are NOT paraphrases, they are the work of serious scholarship to give us the best understanding of God's word.

My suggestion is to read the variety of translations available at such sites as Bible Gateway (biblegateway.com) and choose the one that resonates with your understanding. With very, very few exceptions, all modern translations are excellent.
 
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Halbhh

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All translations are paraphrases, including the KJV and the ESV. It is impossible to translate the ancient languages literally. The vocabulary, syntax, idioms, etc. of the ancient languages are very different than modern English (and other languages). Translators, many of whom have devoted their lives to the art/science of translation, must make informed choices about how to best render the Bible texts. Even the Septuagint, the Bible in use at the time of Jesus and the Apostles, was a translation.

The NLT that you criticize is intended to be a simple-to-read rendition of the Bible for those who aren't very fluent in English. It doesn't "mangle" the text any more than any other translation; it achieves the goal of being the easiest translation to understand. It was the first Bible that I ever used, and as a result I became a Christian. (And I have a Master's degree.)

I can criticize the ESV for its obvious translators' doctrinal bias, but I won't. It has its strong and weak points, just like every other translation.

The purpose of any translation is the comprehension of the Word of God by the reader. That is the reason that the KJV fails most modern readers and leads to serious misinterpretations. The great majority of modern translations are NOT paraphrases, they are the work of serious scholarship to give us the best understanding of God's word.

My suggestion is to read the variety of translations available at such sites as Bible Gateway (biblegateway.com) and choose the one that resonates with your understanding. With very, very few exceptions, all modern translations are excellent.

Thanks! I agree very heartily that it is best on crucial passages to read many translations.

Actually, tho it's often very ungrammatical, I often like in addition to looking at the greek or hebrew words and definitions at times, to also read Young's Literal Translation (all available at BibleHub for each verse), just to get that quick more direct translation effect. It being ungrammatical doesn't really impede and sometimes the wording helps bring something into more visibility.
 
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Halbhh

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The NLT that you criticize is intended to be a simple-to-read rendition of the Bible for those who aren't very fluent in English. It doesn't "mangle" the text any more than any other translation
This may seem so in part perhaps from the effect that if you read 15 or 20 chapters in NLT you probably won't see a problem....

Won't see any problem. It will be fine. You can tell it's a reasonably good translation. etc.

But if you happen on the other hand to read certain passages, then you may discover (I have) a whole new kind of serious problem (one that has nothing to do with churches or doctrines at all).

Here is one key example.

----------

My experience after reading a lot of different verses in multiple translations is that the NLT (New Living Translation) does fine...most of the time.

But...sometimes it removes something precious -- the above-us (above our level: Isaiah 55:8-9 ) wording from the Lord.

Look at one of the most deeply wonderful verses in all of Scripture:

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

....

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;


==================

Beautiful, and moving, and wonderful beyond measure, don't you agree? (though perhaps you noticed how the 'amplified' version lost some of the wonderful perfection of the wording).

So....
Imagine...what it would have been like to have missed that transcendent wording -- the holy wording that lifts us up above our mortal world....

To instead have something else less good, like this below, that has some of the transcendent quality, but not all -- because the wording has been mangled by addition of a superfluous (unnecessary, unneeded in the moment) doctrine.

-->
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.


See what you lose there?
 
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pescador

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This may seem so in part perhaps from the effect that if you read 15 or 20 chapters in NLT you probably won't see a problem....

Won't see any problem. It will be fine. You can tell it's a reasonably good translation. etc.

But if you happen on the other hand to read certain passages, then you may discover (I have) a whole new kind of serious problem (one that has nothing to do with churches or doctrines at all).

Here is one key example.

----------

My experience after reading a lot of different verses in multiple translations is that the NLT (New Living Translation) does fine...most of the time.

But...sometimes it removes something precious -- the above-us (above our level: Isaiah 55:8-9 ) wording from the Lord.

Look at one of the most deeply wonderful verses in all of Scripture:

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

....

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;


==================

Beautiful, and moving, and wonderful beyond measure, don't you agree? (though perhaps you noticed how the 'amplified' version lost some of the wonderful perfection of the wording).

So....
Imagine...what it would have been like to have missed that transcendent wording -- the holy wording that lifts us up above our mortal world....

To instead have something else less good, like this below, that has some of the transcendent quality, but not all -- because the wording has been mangled by addition of a superfluous (unnecessary, unneeded in the moment) doctrine.

-->
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.


See what you lose there?

No, I don't see what is lost. "In the beginning was the Word" is actually an unusual sentence structure. It's much clearer to say "In the beginning the Word already existed". All the translations above are actually repeating Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", including the NLT. "... was the Word" is strange wording.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible translates Genesis 1:1 as " In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth)." and John 1:1 as "Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel, Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma’amar Memra]. How's that for clarity? Or do they have it "wrong" also?

Or God's Word translation: "In the beginning the Word already existed."

J B Phillips Translation: " At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning."

BTW, the Greek literally says "In beginning was Word ..." (There is no "the")

The NET footnote on John 1:1 says, "In the beginning. The search for the basic “stuff” out of which things are made was the earliest one in Greek philosophy. It was attended by the related question of “What is the process by which the secondary things came out of the primary one (or ones)?,” or in Aristotelian terminology, “What is the ‘beginning’ (same Greek word as beginning, John 1:1) and what is the origin of the things that are made?” In the New Testament the word usually has a temporal sense, but even BDAG 138 s.v. ἀρχή 3 lists a major category of meaning as “the first cause.” For John, the words “In the beginning” are most likely a conscious allusion to the opening words of Genesis—“In the beginning.” Other concepts which occur prominently in Gen 1 are also found in John’s prologue: “life” (1:4) “light” (1:4) and “darkness” (1:5). Gen 1 describes the first (physical) creation; John 1 describes the new (spiritual) creation. But this is not to play off a false dichotomy between “physical” and “spiritual”; the first creation was both physical and spiritual. The new creation is really a re-creation, of the spiritual (first) but also the physical. (In spite of the common understanding of John’s “spiritual” emphasis, the “physical” re-creation should not be overlooked; this occurs in John 2 with the changing of water into wine, in John 11 with the resurrection of Lazarus, and the emphasis of John 20-21 on the aftermath of Jesus’ own resurrection.)

How about The Passion Translation? " In the very beginning the Living Expression was already there. And the Living Expression was with God, yet fully God." IMHO this clarifies the Greek concept of "the Word" really well (if you understand the concept!)

Or the Worldwide English Translation, "The Word already was, way back before anything began to be. The Word and God were together. The Word was God."

Or the Wycliffe Bible, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.] How's that for clarity!

The NLT is a wonderful translation for those people who need an explanation of the Bible's meaning. It is excellent for that purpose, even if other translations differ. They are all attempting to translate not only the Koine Greek, but what it means. Unless you think that Jesus was actually a word -- a component of language, which He clearly wasn't; He was and is a person -- there needs to be an interpretation, either in your mind or having it explained, as the NLT and The Passion Translation do so well.
 
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Though obviously not an update, I find the Spanish Reina-Valera to so closely parallel the KJV, that their necessary differences in translation make them complimentary substitutes. When I read one, I have the other open to the same verses.
 
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