Those who fall away are still saved?

[justbyfaith]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that , in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, (and now Eternal Security-is the Gospel) in the General Theology section) is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
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A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Obviously not, that's the whole point of life on earth and the concept of free will. We are not forced to serve God we choose to and God want nothing less than servants who love him and want to be in his eternal presence.
No one else are worthy.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

i.e. Trust Yahweh Sovereign Creator
Have Faith in Jesus Messiah Savior, the King of the Jews
overcome by the word of testimony (of Jesus) and the BLOOD OF THE LAMB
and
seek Yahweh's Kingdom all the time, continually.

Then the danger that exists of falling away, with no sacrifice left for sins,
and the danger of being told by Jesus on JUDGMENT DAY "be gone from ME"
and the danger of being
continually deceived by the devil, and
the danger of serving the devil while thinking God is pleased
at least
is diminished ! Yahweh knows perfectly who is His. We don't for the most part.

But a lot of people are not His, but could be, if they would turn to HIM to be saved ,
and not believe in the false gospels of men, like eternal anything, or Mormon, or jw, or hindu, and so on .....

Most people are lost, and remain lost, serving demons (as written in Revelation).
They remain deceived by pharmakeia all their lives.

God did not leave them without a way to be saved - they choose every day.... for themselves, whether to call on Him or not, to refuse to or not.....
to keep rebelling as they did in the wilderness, when tens of thousands were LOST.

TODAY, if you hear His Voice, do not be rebellious !

LISTEN FOR HIM, and keep listening ! It is necessary to hear Him.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

when a sinner truly repents of their sins and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, they are forgiven of all their sins, and Justified before God, as though they had never sinned. They are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit, which is ownership by the Lord of that person. They that are truly born again by God the Holy Spirit, CANNOT lose their salvation. Jesus says of theses in John 5:24, "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life", they have already "crossed over from death to life". Where the Greek shows of this transition of already taken place for the repentant sinner. This is what Jesus promised Martha in John chapter 11, "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (25-26), where again the repentant sinner, "NEVER DIES".

 

[Dave G.]

To me from my scripture reading, if someone falls away rings of was he/she ever save to begin with. According to scripture a born again believer is sealed by The Spirit unto the day of redemption, that no one can snatch him away. No one can break the seal. I would add that there is no one more miserable than a born again believer who falls and comes under conviction of the Holy Spirit. No you don't get lost unless you were never reborn of the spirit in the first place. A lot of Christians in a works program can be lost because they are working their way toward salvation and are never born again and so lost anyway.. Ponder this 2 Corinthians 1:22 English Standard Version
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

they have already "crossed over from death to life". Where the Greek shows of this transition of already taken place for the repentant sinner.

..... thus,
if anyone has tasted of the heavenlies/ life in Jesus/
and then turns
and tramples underfoot after the life they shared with Jesus,
tamples underfoot the grace Yahweh showed them and Jesus crucifixion,
THEN
after having one tasted of the goodness of heaven in and with Jesus,
THEN
after having trampled Him shamelessly underfoot , with no remaining regard for Him or for others ,
THEN THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR THEIR SINS

don't even pray for them,

maybe pray that they are gone quickly , Yahweh willing,
so that they do not continually go on deceiving and hurting others...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

footnote: realize that it seems people don't really care about eternal security/ osas/
not even whether it is true or not -

they just want to feel like they are "saved" (whether they are or not) TODAY, hoping
it seems, that even though they DID NOT REPENT, they hope their sins are not going to be held against them....
and that even though they DID NOT REPENT, they hope that they can go on living in the flesh like the people of the world
and have a special exception so that because "they think their way is right" they can continue without repenting, and they refuse to worry or be concerned about turning to God (repenting) to learn from God the Truth, and to stop sinning and to be forgiven IN REALITY as God's WORD SAYS CLEARLY....

 

[Eloy Craft]

For us what is, isn't what was, or what will be, it is what is now. If in this moment, there is no reason that afflicts our conscience, to inform us that we are fallen away, we can say, in this moment, there is no reason for me to believe I have lost salvation. If in this moment, I have no reason to believe that I am not abiding in Christ, then I can have a sure hope that at this moment I am abiding in Jesus and the source of eternal life.

I can't perceive time so how can I perceive eternal things?

There is no past or future but in this moment we exist. In our perception of time, the past is gone so it doesn't exist, the future is not yet, so it doesn't exist. What we perceive as a moment in time can be divided infinitely so it isn't graspable. In our perception there is no grasp of time. But in our perception we exist in this moment. Whatever it may really be. In eternity everything past and future are present. Perhaps it is also present in this moment that we exist but don't perceive. In that case all that counts is what we are being in this moment. If we are being what our faith in Christ hopes for then we must continue to be that as the moment proceeds. If I am being saved right now that is what I want to continue being and if I am being saved at the moment of my death, my salvation is complete.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Fallen away.... taste the word and you'll have your answer.

 

[Tayla]

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Seems to me to be just a mind game whether or not a person who falls away was ever saved in the first place or whether they lost their salvation. What does it matter?

 

[tdidymas]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that, in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
.
.
.
A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

It's important to get familiar with what the scripture says and teaches, because it is through the word of God that we are born again, and the word establishes our faith. If we know the word in that way, there is no falling away. The only people who fall away are those who had only emotional or intellectual experiences, and have not been born spiritually from the word of God.

With that said, it all depends on your semantics - what do you mean by believe, fall away, etc? If someone misuses the idea of "OSAS" and makes a claim to believe, doesn't mean they actually do. There is a precarious position among those who barely know or heard the gospel and don't know the word, and weren't born again. Such people are described in the parable of the sower. This is why Peter says that our faith - that is, the testing of it - is more valuable than gold. If we continue in the faith after we are tested, it brings assurance to us. Those who fall away didn't have saving faith, since they are led astray by fleshly desires or false teachers, which are some of the reasons they fall away.

The idea of eternal security is for true believers. It does nothing for false "believers" except to offer them a false sense of security. Security verses like 1 Pet. 1:5 "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" are for encouraging the true believer who longs for assurance from God. Such verses give no assurance to those with a faith claim but have no deep longing for God to speak to them or for their life to bear fruit. The true believer has a strong desire to be at peace with God in the right way. The false ones (tares) have no interest in that, and this is the reason why some people seem to "fall away."

Those having the Holy Spirit are actually kept by God, since the Spirit is stronger than the flesh and the false. This is why Peter could write 1 Pet. 1:5. False believing (making a claim) is clearly laid out in James 2. He states that if a person says he believes, but doesn't have any good works (works of love for others), his faith is no good. It's like the demons who know what Jesus did, but it doesn't apply to them. The same for the Heb. 6:4-8 character who never bears the fruit of salvation. Didn't Jesus say "not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven"? Obviously, some will call Jesus 'Lord' who are not born again or bear godly fruit, and it was this way from the beginning until today.

So the gospel of grace is being accepted by God as a free gift, requiring no godly work from the recipient of acceptance - the only requirement is that the person believe in Jesus when the gospel is heard. If someone thinks that this idea leads to sin, such a person has neither heard nor understood the gospel of grace, because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for the one who believes. And this salvation includes deliverance from sins. When a person comes clean of sins, there is no desire to go back into the cess pool. Only the dog returns to vomit or the pig returns to the stinking mud. Such things are detestable to the sheep of Christ.

The word of God declares our new identity of being in Christ, gives assurance of salvation, establishes our faith, encourages us to bear fruit, and strengthens our hope of eternal life. How can anyone knowing this fall away (if they are taught of the Spirit)? Only the ones who are reprobate fall away when tested or examined (2 Cor. 13:5). Therefore doubts and fears (that is, fear of God) are important and useful in the faith-building process. The warnings of scripture call the righteous to heed them, but the foolish wicked disregard them and fall away.
TD

 

[GuyNad]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that, in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
.
.
.
A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

I certainly don't have all the answers. I personally think that, a person should continue to believe... that doesn't mean that there will not be hard time when you'll feel like you are far from being the kind of person you think you should be in front of God.

But that's where we need faith... even when things seem to be hopeless... even when others may see you as a backslider because you may have fallen into bad habits or addictions for a while. If you keep calling to God even in those dark hours, keep hanging on to Him... I think a person is on the right track...

I always have that image of that guy hanging on the cross beside Jesus... and how Jesus comforted him that he will be with him in paradise....

 

[Eloy Craft]

The only person who can pull the " not a true scottsman' and it not be a fallacy when it comes to salvation, is someone who see's everyone's final end in eternity. God can say, " oh they weren't a true Christian in the first place. It's like eternal sin. Sure there are people around us who will die in their sin. Who knows who they are? We can have an idea but probably wrong so only God. Same with heaven.

 

[fhansen]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that, in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
.
.
.
A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

There's a lot of confusion on this, but its simple enough. As a response to grace we believe, turning back to God from the lost condition of spiritual separation from Him. God cleanses us, makes us new creations, basically restoring us to the union with Himself that Adam experienced before the Fall. It's a matter of our wills, aided by grace, that we make this choice, just as it was a matter of Adam's will to begin with to turn away from God. God does not override our wills, which means we can always turn back away from Him again. And Scripture attests to this fact and warns against this possibility over and over again.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The word of God declares our new identity of being in Christ, gives assurance of salvation, establishes our faith, encourages us to bear fruit, and strengthens our hope of eternal life. How can anyone knowing this fall away (if they are taught of the Spirit)? Only the ones who are reprobate fall away when tested or examined (2 Cor. 13:5). Therefore doubts and fears (that is, fear of God) are important and useful in the faith-building process. The warnings of scripture call the righteous to heed them, but the foolish wicked disregard them and fall away.

I hope you don't deny that after you fall you get back up and brush your self off and start walking again. I might be too ashamed to get back up if I thought failing a test doesn't happen to real Christians. Something that makes me fear presumption, the people on the left that heard those frightening words "I never knew you" presumed they were saved. Those on the right didn't presume they were.

 

[Micah888]

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

The ones who believed for a while and then fell away did not have genuine faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. Also they may have made a verbal profession of faith without truly repenting and believing with all their heart. As Scripture says "they had no root".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The ones who believed for a while and then fell away did not have genuine faith in Christ

This is not confirmed by Scripture, is it ?
If someone "tastes of the heavenlies...." etc as written, can they do that without having AT THE TIME, genuine faith in Jesus ?

 

[Micah888]

This is not confirmed by Scripture, is it ?
If someone "tastes of the heavenlies...." etc as written, can they do that without having AT THE TIME, genuine faith in Jesus ?

But that is not what the parable said at all.

There are many who can give mental assent to the Gospel without genuine conversion, and there are also some who can make empty professions of faith without being regenerated.

There are different kinds of "believing" as James tells us (and as the parable of the Sower tells us). Simon the Sorcerer is said to have believed, but his words and actions did not demonstrate genuine repentance and faith.

 

[EmSw]

But that is not what the parable said at all.

There are many who can give mental assent to the Gospel without genuine conversion, and there are also some who can make empty professions of faith without being regenerated.

There are different kinds of "believing" as James tells us (and as the parable of the Sower tells us). Simon the Sorcerer is said to have believed, but his words and actions did not demonstrate genuine repentance and faith.

What guarantees that a person has 'genuine' faith? How many here think they are saved, but in reality, are making 'empty professions'? Those who say 'they were never saved' for whatever reason, what assurance do they have they are saved? How does one know if they 'have roots'? What is meant by 'mental assent'?

 

[Micah888]

What guarantees that a person has 'genuine' faith?

The New Birth (John 1:12,13)

How many here think they are saved, but in reality, are making 'empty professions'?

Only God knows.

Those who say 'they were never saved' for whatever reason, what assurance do they have they are saved?

Not sure what you mean by this. It appears to be self-contradictory.

How does one know if they 'have roots'?

Their lives are totally transformed. Study the conversion of Saul the enemy of Christ to Paul the apostle of Christ.

What is meant by 'mental assent'?

Mental assent means that one knows all the Gospel facts and does not even deny their truth, but they have not affected the person in his heart. Which means there has been no repentance and inner transformation, expressed through outward behavior.