Those who choose Hell.......

[Asaph]

Asaph, chill out. That's just the way messageboards are, for some reason. Posts are sent out, fairly emotionless, but when they're received the thing creates an emotion overload. No one knows why that is; it's a new phenomenon. In ten years there will probably be something called "digital psychology" to study it.

You quoted something I had written and then used the personal pronoun "you" in your responses. If you didn't mean to attack specifically what I had written, and by extension me, then pick your grammer more carefully.

Now if you truely didn't mean it personally, apologize. That's pretty simple isn't it?

Asaph

 

[Mother Vashti]

You quoted something I had written and then used the personal pronoun "you" in your responses. If you didn't mean to [inflammatory word choice]attack[/inflammatory word choice] specifically what I had written, and by extension me, [implied insult]then pick your grammer more carefully[/implied insult].

[smoldering]Now if you truely didn't mean it personally, apologize. That's pretty simple isn't it?[/smoldering]

Asaph

I said CHILL.

 

[Asaph]

I said CHILL.

​

I SAID APOLOGIZE.

 

[Asaph]

This has got to be the single biggest waste of time I have ever allowed myself to get hooked into. ROFL!

 

[Mother Vashti]

I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that people deserve to die. 'Deep sorrow', in this context, is really just feeling sorry for yourself. Given truth and foreknowledge of the afterworld, watching people seal their fiery fate, like so many blind marching ants.... This is both patronizing and idle-talk.

I was suggesting that you be sympathetic not because people aren't aware fiery lakes of sulfur await them. Be sympathetic because you understand what they're going through. This will prompt you to action, instead of being a pitying, uninvolved observer.

Dude, I owe you no apology for this. You just need to calm the heck down.

I SAID APOLOGIZE.

Arnold understand. Arnold is butterfly crushed on the wheel too.

?

Uh, I'm just gonna stay out of this

 

[Asaph]

This has got to be the single biggest waste of time I have ever allowed myself to get hooked into. ROFL!

No editing required.

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

I’m in full agreement with Danhead’s post 16th July 2004, 06:49 AM. Jesus after all is the only one claims to have been to heaven and describes it in ways people can understand, and does the same for hell or Ghenna etc.
I cant see any reason to reject any end time warnings in Revelation any more than any other scriptural references as erroneous. I think, Karin, you have already decided how you think God should be rather than seeking what He wants to reveal to us through His word. It is still God who is love, regardless of what isn’t of God, that’s why we choose Jesus as our Lord.

Blessings

 

[Asaph]

There is a way to avoid hell, but it doesn't lie on the path of avoidance, or denial, or good works, or rationalization, or intellectualism. It lies soley on the path of accepting Jesus the Messiah as our Lord and Saviour.

So what may start out as an attemp to avoid hell with all it's negative and horrifying implications, at some point must turn into an acceptance of Life from the giver of Life with all of it's wonder and joy.

So yes, the Gospel is "Good News" for those who are being saved and it is love and goodness, and all positive. But for those who will not accept the free gift of salvation there will come a time when they will never again experience anything "positive", and if even one person could be saved by gaining a realization of the abject horror of hell and turning their heart toward the One who Loves them, then I'll endure all the hammering it takes to sound that alarm.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[phooka]

As for myself, I choose the Lord, but I believe there are great numbers of people who will end up in Hell by their own chosing. Those of the great unwashed masses who refuse to humble themselves before the Lord who created them. I'm afraid that most of those who make that choice do not understand what faces them and they must believe that somehow their afterlife will be either similar to their life here on earth or somehow better.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
All who are alive right now are the recipients of God's Grace and Mercy in some form or another. There is God's general manifistation throughout the earth for one, "God causes it to rain on the just and the unjust" and there is God's great restraining power evidenced by a conscience in each individual for another. Not to say the specific "salt and light" He pours out through us who are His Kids.
But hell will be a place where none of the attributes of God are displayed. There will be no Love, period. There will be no Mercy, period. In short, there will be No Good Thing, period.
It is a fate too hard to contemplate and gives me great sorrow deep inside for those who will end up there.
I know this is not a popular message and I for one spend most of my time "proclaiming the Light instead of railing against the darkness", but once in a while I think we need to remind ourselves of the horrors that await those who will not accept the gift of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

Hi Asaph,

although I do respect people who believe in the duality Heaven - Hell, allow me to be a bit heretic. I know that the christian tradition talks about "Hell" as if it was a reality so defined as "Heaven". However, some studies of the Bible conclude that the concept of "hell" was introduced by copying some of the religions around Israel.

I am not saying that hell does NOT exist; however, I have a deep certainty that Heaven exists, but I doubt the existance of Hell. Somehow I can't believe in a God that will punish those who didn't live his life according to "God's Will". Somehow I believe that afterlife is granted to all mankind, so what really matters is the achievement of a better tomorrow here, in this very planet.

D

 

[Asaph]

Hi Asaph,

although I do respect people who believe in the duality Heaven - Hell, allow me to be a bit heretic. I know that the christian tradition talks about "Hell" as if it was a reality so defined as "Heaven". However, some studies of the Bible conclude that the concept of "hell" was introduced by copying some of the religions around Israel.

I am not saying that hell does NOT exist; however, I have a deep certainty that Heaven exists, but I doubt the existance of Hell. Somehow I can't believe in a God that will punish those who didn't live his life according to "God's Will". Somehow I believe that afterlife is granted to all mankind, so what really matters is the achievement of a better tomorrow here, in this very planet.

D

Hi phooka,

I appreciate your grace in disagreement. I must state that I believe in the concept of sola scriptura, so that you have an understanding of my mindset. I believe the bible to be God's inspired word for mankind because I believe the very first verse literally. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. I believe that a being that could do that is also capable of presenting His children with the bible just as He desires today. There is also plenty of empirical evidence to show that the scriptures were written too close to the time of the events to have been corrupted with legend or myth.
Therefore, (man I can be long winded can't I?), if any portion of the bible is rejected on grounds other than inadequete translation, and there are a few places in constant question, though none to my knowledge on any significant fundamental teachings, then the person rejecting a portion has no ablility to pick and chose that which they will accept. All cults that make claim to be christian do this. Once a person has come to the conclusion that a portion of the bible is untrue, then none of it is reliable and they are left on their own to decide what is Truth and what isn't.
All this is to say that if the "hell" that is laid out in the bible is not true then niether is the Heaven that is laid out in the same book, and we are all then left to swirl about in a maze of confusion and guesswork.
I just don't think that is something my Loving Heavenly Father would do to His children.
Does that make any sense? I was trying to keep it as short as possible.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Mother Vashti]

Hi Karin,

I cant see any reason to reject any end time warnings in Revelation any more than any other scriptural references as erroneous. I think, Karin, you have already decided how you think God should be rather than seeking what He wants to reveal to us through His word. It is still God who is love, regardless of what isn’t of God, that’s why we choose Jesus as our Lord.

Blessings

Well, I think she's entitled to reject Revelation if she chooses. To it's credit, it was quoted by Clement of Rome in a letter circa A.D. 95. To it's discredit, it has been ousted from the biblical cannon and re-entered four times.

 

[phooka]

Once a person has come to the conclusion that a portion of the bible is untrue, then none of it is reliable and they are left on their own to decide what is Truth and what isn't.

Hi again Asaph! On the contrary, this "maze of confusion and guesswork" are part of the word "faith". If everything was sound and clear, faith would be easy...

I think that precisely because we can find contradictions in the Bible (and especially in the different interpretations of it), the search of the basic beliefs and central points makes us stronger...

Regards,
David

 

[Asaph]

Hi again Asaph! On the contrary, this "maze of confusion and guesswork" are part of the word "faith". If everything was sound and clear, faith would be easy...

I think that precisely because we can find contradictions in the Bible (and especially in the different interpretations of it), the search of the basic beliefs and central points makes us stronger...

Regards,
David
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Hi phooka,

You may be surprised by this, but on a certain level I agree with you. I believe that the entirety of God is past our ability to find out, and I believe that because the scripture says its so. You might be suprised to find how few actual contradictions there are in the bible though. I mean apart from translational differences. I know when I was Morman we had it pounded into us that the bible was full of contradictions and errors perpetrated by evil monks, but when I actually became a Christian the Holy Spirit gave me wisdom, understanding, and led me to some great reference works so I could apply sound study principles to what was written. Big difference!

As far as "faith" itself is concerned though, my take is a little different. My faith isn't really about "does God exist" but rather its about "I put all my trust in Him, because He is God". I have faith that He has done everything the bible says He will do, and I take great comfort in that.

I can't, in good conscience, avoid the topic of hell just because it is unpalletable, or even if some people don't believe it exists. I myself could wish that it didn't exist, but that wouldn't be inline with what I know to be true. So I warn as many people as I can away from hell, and lure as many as I can toward heaven. Either way, Jesus is the Answer.

It's just a matter of different baits for different fish!.....

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[phooka]

Hi phooka,

You may be surprised by this, but on a certain level I agree with you. I believe that the entirety of God is past our ability to find out, and I believe that because the scripture says its so. You might be suprised to find how few actual contradictions there are in the bible though. I mean apart from translational differences. I know when I was Morman we had it pounded into us that the bible was full of contradictions and errors perpetrated by evil monks, but when I actually became a Christian the Holy Spirit gave me wisdom, understanding, and led me to some great reference works so I could apply sound study principles to what was written. Big difference!

As far as "faith" itself is concerned though, my take is a little different. My faith isn't really about "does God exist" but rather its about "I put all my trust in Him, because He is God". I have faith that He has done everything the bible says He will do, and I take great comfort in that.

I can't, in good conscience, avoid the topic of hell just because it is unpalletable, or even if some people don't believe it exists. I myself could wish that it didn't exist, but that wouldn't be inline with what I know to be true. So I warn as many people as I can away from hell, and lure as many as I can toward heaven. Either way, Jesus is the Answer.

It's just a matter of different baits for different fish!.....

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

It’s nice to see that even when we have different basis (I still think that there are multiple contradictions in the Bible, not so much historically speaking, but theologically: i.e. the killer God vs. the all loving God cannot be reconciled in my paradigm) we can have solid grounds to talk about thinks… I’ve met too much intransigence in the past, so this is fresh air to me!



David

 

[Asaph]

It’s nice to see that even when we have different basis (I still think that there are multiple contradictions in the Bible, not so much historically speaking, but theologically: i.e. the killer God vs. the all loving God cannot be reconciled in my paradigm) we can have solid grounds to talk about thinks… I’ve met too much intransigence in the past, so this is fresh air to me!



David

Hi David....aka "Phooka"

I agree. And I really try to remember that the "Truth" is way more important than me or my understanding of it. After all Paul himself said that "this is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of who I am chief". I think we sometimes miss the part about this is a faithful saying. I know I miss it sometimes......

Would you like to discuss the "killer God verses Loving God" reconciliation that you mentioned? (in a way, it was actually part of my original post)

Grace and Peace to you,
Asaph

 

[phooka]

Hi Asaph, I will need to express a part of my own beliefs so that you know where I stand...

I believe in a God that fulfils the following attributes:



1. He created existence

2. He is a benign, loving God

3. He cannot change or act randomly, childishly: although we cannot contain him in our paradigms, He cannot negate himself and therefore we can expect a certain pattern in his action



I also believe that the Bible understood as the literal word of God, or the Bible understood as the inspired word of God, fails to show a God who is coherent to Himself.



My conception of the Bible is the following: a group of people that lived in different periods of History, and in different social and religious paradigms, wrote about God. Some of that people were very open minded, while some others were very xenophobic and / or racist. That’s why you don’t get a “one size fits all” Bible, but an extremely complex collection of books, some of them even contradictory to others. That’s why I’ve never accepted the old system of proving one’s ideas with quotes of the Bible, since you could prove absolutely everything you believed.



Now, since I do not believe in a random God, and I am convinced about his inherent love, I consider that there are some areas of the Bible that are absolutely against this vision of God. For example, I don’t believe that a loving God told his “chosen people” to slaughter all the children in the conquered villages. To me, that is an abomination, and therefore, God never commanded it. On the contrary, my personal opinion is that some of the writers of the Old Testament assumed that since they won the Battles, God sanctioned them (a bit like the “theology of prosperity” that flourishes in lots of congregations in the US, UK and part of South America). Once they made that assumption (we won, so God is by our side), it was easy to dramatize the whole historic chapter.



This could bring the issue of the validity of the Bible: well, I believe God to be far more complex than what is expressed in the Bible. I cannot believe that such a wonderful being can be contained in the pages of a book. However, since some of the people who wrote the Bible did truly understood the God “all-loving, creator, universal” as opposed to the God “revengeful, limited to Israel”, there are parts in the Bible that are valid, and those are the ones who show an loving God ready to forgive and craving for a better world, here and now.



Anyways, I know that this sounds extremely heretic, but this is my opinion!


Again, cool to read your points!

 

[Asaph]

Hey phooka,

Wow, this is a lot of ground to cover, but I will endeavor to do so.

Hi Asaph, I will need to express a part of my own beliefs so that you know where I stand...

I believe in a God that fulfils the following attributes:



1. He created existence

2. He is a benign, loving God

3. He cannot change or act randomly, childishly: although we cannot contain him in our paradigms, He cannot negate himself and therefore we can expect a certain pattern in his action



I also believe that the Bible understood as the literal word of God, or the Bible understood as the inspired word of God, fails to show a God who is coherent to Himself.

As far as 1,2, and 3 go I would only disagree with the word "benign" because it denotes either inaction or deadness, niether of which can be attributed to God. (unchanging might have been a better word).

And I disagree with God being incoherent to Himself. I understand where you are coming from and will gladly discuss it, but that in itself will be a pretty deep study, and we would want to agree that it is so important to the matter at hand that we do it, before we start. Like I say, this is a lot of ground to cover!...

My conception of the Bible is the following: a group of people that lived in different periods of History, and in different social and religious paradigms, wrote about God. Some of that people were very open minded, while some others were very xenophobic and / or racist. That’s why you don’t get a “one size fits all” Bible, but an extremely complex collection of books, some of them even contradictory to others. That’s why I’ve never accepted the old system of proving one’s ideas with quotes of the Bible, since you could prove absolutely everything you believed.

The different writers and different periods is one of the reasons I so very much trust the bible and with a deeper understanding of "times and seasons" I am greatly amazed by it's consistancy. The other point you make here though makes me want to apologise to you for the people you must have run into that have so twisted and taken scripture out of context to serve their own pet doctrines. Sorry about that man, we are all just sinful humans though, and sometimes it's hard to admit that we may just not have an answer.

Now, since I do not believe in a random God, and I am convinced about his inherent love, I consider that there are some areas of the Bible that are absolutely against this vision of God. For example, I don’t believe that a loving God told his “chosen people” to slaughter all the children in the conquered villages. To me, that is an abomination, and therefore, God never commanded it.

I understand where you are coming from. But to be honest, in order to adequetely address it we have to go deeper into your understanding of who God actually is. I think I mentioned it earlier, but my own understanding of who God is line up exactly with the entity described in Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth". Bare with me on this and you will see why it's important.

On the contrary, my personal opinion is that some of the writers of the Old Testament assumed that since they won the Battles, God sanctioned them (a bit like the “theology of prosperity” that flourishes in lots of congregations in the US, UK and part of South America). Once they made that assumption (we won, so God is by our side), it was easy to dramatize the whole historic chapter.

You have to assume that the writers were lying in order for this to be so, and I do not believe they would lie. The arguement then becomes undebatable unless you have forensic evidence of untenablility or corruption. Let's pass on this one.

This could bring the issue of the validity of the Bible: well, I believe God to be far more complex than what is expressed in the Bible. I cannot believe that such a wonderful being can be contained in the pages of a book. However, since some of the people who wrote the Bible did truly understood the God “all-loving, creator, universal” as opposed to the God “revengeful, limited to Israel”, there are parts in the Bible that are valid, and those are the ones who show an loving God ready to forgive and craving for a better world, here and now.

Absolutely. However; this same God is perfect in His being to the point that anything sinful can have no place with Him. An accounting must be made.

Anyways, I know that this sounds extremely heretic, but this is my opinion!


Again, cool to read your points!

No my friend, not heretical at all. In fact, I think you display a great desire for the truth and I know God always honors that. Have a wonderful evening.

Grace, Mercy and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Mother Vashti]

Hi Asaph, I will need to express a part of my own beliefs so that you know where I stand...

I believe in a God that fulfils the following attributes:



1. He created existence

2. He is a benign, loving God

3. He cannot change or act randomly, childishly: although we cannot contain him in our paradigms, He cannot negate himself and therefore we can expect a certain pattern in his action



I also believe that the Bible understood as the literal word of God, or the Bible understood as the inspired word of God, fails to show a God who is coherent to Himself.



My conception of the Bible is the following: a group of people that lived in different periods of History, and in different social and religious paradigms, wrote about God. Some of that people were very open minded, while some others were very xenophobic and / or racist. That’s why you don’t get a “one size fits all” Bible, but an extremely complex collection of books, some of them even contradictory to others. That’s why I’ve never accepted the old system of proving one’s ideas with quotes of the Bible, since you could prove absolutely everything you believed.



Now, since I do not believe in a random God, and I am convinced about his inherent love, I consider that there are some areas of the Bible that are absolutely against this vision of God. For example, I don’t believe that a loving God told his “chosen people” to slaughter all the children in the conquered villages. To me, that is an abomination, and therefore, God never commanded it. On the contrary, my personal opinion is that some of the writers of the Old Testament assumed that since they won the Battles, God sanctioned them (a bit like the “theology of prosperity” that flourishes in lots of congregations in the US, UK and part of South America). Once they made that assumption (we won, so God is by our side), it was easy to dramatize the whole historic chapter.



This could bring the issue of the validity of the Bible: well, I believe God to be far more complex than what is expressed in the Bible. I cannot believe that such a wonderful being can be contained in the pages of a book. However, since some of the people who wrote the Bible did truly understood the God “all-loving, creator, universal” as opposed to the God “revengeful, limited to Israel”, there are parts in the Bible that are valid, and those are the ones who show an loving God ready to forgive and craving for a better world, here and now.



Anyways, I know that this sounds extremely heretic, but this is my opinion!


Again, cool to read your points!

Excellent post.

 

[PraiseYahweh]

I think division in the Body of Christ is a sad but normal thing for these times, just think what we could do under the Holy name of Jesus if we could stop nit picking and join together for Him!
Matthew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Praise Jesus we can learn from the Grace given by God!

 

[Ave Maria]

I don't think anyone actually "chooses" Hell. I think what they do is reject Christ which has the consequences of Hell. But it just doesn't sound right to say that someone chooses Hell. I don't think that any sane person would choose to go to a place of eternal torment.