Those who choose Hell.......

[Asaph]

I have typed a full answer twice today, and twice it has been lost!

I shall try again tomorrow, and type it up in Word, just in case. However, the answers are mostly a copy of the notes in my NIV study Bible, so if you have access to one of those or somthing similar you can save me the trouble.

Karin

Yeah, I have plenty of reference works I could use if I misunderstood the meanings. Here are some other references that you may be more familiar with:

​

​

1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire. ​
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
   ​
   <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
   2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
   ​
2. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."​

I borrowed this from the CARM website. Here's a link for you http://www.carm.org/index.html​

​

​

​

Asaph​

​

​

​

 

[DawnElena]

Well Asaph, I for one am with you all the way. Your message spoke to my heart.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Apologies if I'm wrong, Asaph but you sound like you are just trying to prove your point and have closed your mind to the truth of the matter.

For anyone who is interested:

As I have already said the word some Bibles translate as "hell" in the Old Testament is Sheol, which simply means the place of the dead. My NIV Bible translates it "the grave" and my NRSV, keeps Sheol.

In the New Testament various words are used for the place of the dead and there is a sense of punishment creeping in, but not of eternal suffering. Gehenna is the actual word attributed to Jesus, although he may have used an Aramaic word. Gehenna is a Greek word based on the name of a valley just outside Jerusalem, which started out as a place of human sacrifice and then became a rubbish dump with smouldering fires. The word was used as a place of the dead by Jesus' day. "Eternal fires" could refer to the continually burning fires in this valley.

Tartarus is another word translated by hell. It is found in 2 Peter and is Greek. Remember that the New Testament was

If you know all this you will realise that the idea that hell is a place of eternal punishment and torment for mere mortals is based on very little evidence and that is pretty flimsy. Moreover it takes no account of the possiblity that Jesus could have been using figures of speech or hyperbole.

Karin

 

[steelmagnolia]

hehehe...Treasure, I must tell you that, yes, I do realize that the bible was not written in English originally LOL!!! (I couldn't pass that up)

 

[Asaph]

I'm with ya Steel. There's a cult I've heard of that claims that everybody gets to go to heaven whether they accept Jesus in this life or not and they deny the existance of an eternal hell. This sounds suspiciously similar and tragic.

But to the post. The reason I included the following psalm, was to refute the claim that the old testament doen't make reference to an afterlife in a bad place. I'll bold the line:

Ps 55:13-15
13 But it was you, a man my equal,
My companion and my acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together,
And walked to the house of God in the throng.
15 Let death seize them;
Let them go down alive into hell,
For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.
NKJV

If the intent of the writer is to express only a place with dead people, why would live people be there?
Am I simplistic? Yeah, by design. I don't treasure the questions TTQ, I treasure The Answer, Jesus.

Peace,
Asaph

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Let them go down alive into hell,

In NIV the word is "the grave". In NRSV, the word is Sheol.

I don't know what punishment if any awaits those who reject Jesus in this life, but I don't think we should teach that the Bible says things it doesn't. Your Bible uses the word, "hell", but it was not in the original manuscript.

Karin

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I only had time to reply briefly, earlier, Asaph. However, I am aware that you asked

If the intent of the writer is to express only a place with dead people, why would live people be there?

I am not an expert, but I do know that the Psalms are a form of poetry. I have also observed that the Psalmist often repeats himself, saying the same thing twice, but in a slightly different way, perhaps for emphasis or perhaps because his artform requires it. Therefore I shall take the previous line, Let death seize them, to help me understand the line in question. I take it simply to be a repitition of "Let them die", but with an extra vengeful thought to increase their suffering, perhaps akin to "Let them be buried alive!"

I don't know if the Psalmist believed in eternal life, but if he didn't, death would have seemed pretty final and the worst punishment he could imagine for his enemies. Maybe the Psalmist thought there was a special place reserved for those blessed by God. I think some such place does crop up in the Old Testament, but that's another matter again.

If you search an on-line New Revised Standard Version for references to Sheol in Psalms and Job it does seem to be interchangeable with "death". I think the ancient Jews believed that the place of the dead was under the earth.

As far as I can ascertain the ancient Jews believed simply that when you died you died. I am told that Jews today believe that the dead go first to Gehenna, which is a place where the relationship between the spirit and God is restored. It is not meant to be especially unpleasant and not a place of torture and torment like hell or purgatory, but equally, not a place of ease and pleasantness. The spirit/soul is in someway purged and purified.

I know that much of what we believe about hell was fabricated in the Middle Ages and that some ideas from Greek philosophy have crept in, so I am interested to know what the Bible actually says about the matter and am trying not to come to it with preconceived ideas. It would be interesting to know what the early church in the first century AD thought would happen to those who died outside the faith.

I am not trying to contradict the Bible, merely to find out what it really says, and what that meant to those who wrote it and their contemporaries.

Karin

 

[Asaph]

I know that much of what we believe about hell was fabricated in the Middle Ages and that some ideas from Greek philosophy have crept in, so I am interested to know what the Bible actually says about the matter and am trying not to come to it with preconceived ideas. It would be interesting to know what the early church in the first century AD thought would happen to those who died outside the faith.

I am not trying to contradict the Bible, merely to find out what it really says, and what that meant to those who wrote it and their contemporaries.

Karin

I will look through some of my reference materials and see if I can come up with anything definitive for you, or at least some ideas where you might be able to find the answers.

Grace, Mercy, and peace,
Asaph

 

[J.David]

I believe "hell" or the "grave" are a reality to those who have not accepted Jesus' atonement and are "dead". The reward for this, if not corrected, will be thrown into the lake of sulfur(brimstone) and fire. I used to be "dead" and seen things that I hope no-one will ever have to experience, I have committed much sin against God and am eternally grateful for His gracious mercy for letting me come to His Son. Some will not and some have been put into the world for the purpose of condemnation, I haven't any idea how this works, but God most certainly does and I trust Him. There is so much more than anyone could possibly learn in this "life" concerning the things of God, but He will teach those who want it and ask for it. God knew before His Word even proceeded from Himself what was going to happen and who would trust with the power He gave us. We are not to consider "who" is condemned, but rather feed His crops within ourselves for His harvest to come, all for His glory.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

On what do you base this idea that people will be thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur, J. David?

Another question is whether we should go around telling people they had better respond to the God of Love or he will throw them into hell?

I do believe that God is the judge of us all and that he has a deep sense of righteousness, but I also believe that because of Jesus' death God's love has the upper hand and his love, grace and mercy have overruled his sense of justice. Perhaps this is not the case for the most wicked and determined criminals but I do wonder if it does apply to ordinary men and women no worse than most Christians except that they find themselves unable to accept the Christian God who has been portrayed as a vengeful ogre.

I do believe that if the majority of those who call themselves Christians gave out a clearer message of God's love, both by their words and deeds, more people would be attracted to Christ. If we turn them away because of our inconsistent lifestyles (and I don't exclude myself here) and our innacurate explanation of the Good News, making it sound more like Bad News, who should be held responsible for people turning away from God?

Karin

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Sadly, there are actually people who believe that hell is Satan's kingdom and that he rules there. Hence the Satanic phrase "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." Many of them believe that by serving Satan on earth, they will be given postions of honor in hell by Satan and that they will be torturing the lesser souls there.

It's terrible that some people are so decieved. Satan will be burning just like everyone else.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Sadly, there are actually people who believe that hell is Satan's kingdom and that he rules there. Hence the Satanic phrase "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." Many of them believe that by serving Satan on earth, they will be given postions of honor in hell by Satan and that they will be torturing the lesser souls there.

It's terrible that some people are so decieved. Satan will be burning just like everyone else.

I shouldn't think too many people think that way, though. Let's keep things in perspective.

Karin

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I shouldn't think too many people think that way, though. Let's keep things in perspective.

Karin

Keep things in perspective? I was just making an observation based on personal experience. I didn't state any statistics or even say that most do, but I have met a few people who do believe that.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Keep things in perspective? I was just making an observation based on personal experience. I didn't state any statistics or even say that most do, but I have met a few people who do believe that.

I wasn't saying that you weren't keeping things in perspective but some might be tempted to go off on a wild tangent.

Karin

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I wasn't saying that you weren't keeping things in perspective but some might be tempted to go off on a wild tangent.

Karin

oh ok. lol I thought I might have missed something as I didn't read the whole thread but just replied to the OP.

 

[Protoevangel]

On what do you base this idea that people will be thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur, J. David?

Hi Karin,

Check out Revelation 20-21
Specifically Revelation 20:15 & Revelation 21:8

 

[Protoevangel]

God knew before His Word even proceeded from Himself

This is my question J.David.
When was there a "before" His Word proceeded from Himself?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Hi Karin,

Check out Revelation 20-21
Specifically Revelation 20:15 & Revelation 21:8

I'm of the opinion that we are not meant to take Revelation literally, especially not the allegorical parts! So you have not provided any valid proof.

Karin

 

[Protoevangel]

I'm of the opinion that we are not meant to take Revelation literally, especially not the allegorical parts! So you have not provided any valid proof.

Karin

First of all, valid proof is not dependant upon your "opinion".

Second, you asked "On what do you base this idea that people will be thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur, J. David?" All I did was offer you the main verses whereupon this idea is based. No need to get all argumentative, Miss Karin.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

First of all, DanHead, there is no need to be disrespctful, and besides I'm married.

Secondly it is not just my opinion.

Thirdly attempts to verify anything from the Bible need to quote verses that actually mean what people suppose them to mean.

Fourthly, while you may be correct, perhaps it would be best to let J David answer for himself.

If you have such a problem with everyone who disagrees with you perhaps it would be wise not to post here.