Those who choose Hell.......

[Asaph]

As for myself, I choose the Lord, but I believe there are great numbers of people who will end up in Hell by their own chosing. Those of the great unwashed masses who refuse to humble themselves before the Lord who created them. I'm afraid that most of those who make that choice do not understand what faces them and they must believe that somehow their afterlife will be either similar to their life here on earth or somehow better.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
All who are alive right now are the recipients of God's Grace and Mercy in some form or another. There is God's general manifistation throughout the earth for one, "God causes it to rain on the just and the unjust" and there is God's great restraining power evidenced by a conscience in each individual for another. Not to say the specific "salt and light" He pours out through us who are His Kids.
But hell will be a place where none of the attributes of God are displayed. There will be no Love, period. There will be no Mercy, period. In short, there will be No Good Thing, period.
It is a fate too hard to contemplate and gives me great sorrow deep inside for those who will end up there.
I know this is not a popular message and I for one spend most of my time "proclaiming the Light instead of railing against the darkness", but once in a while I think we need to remind ourselves of the horrors that await those who will not accept the gift of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Maccie]

So, Asaph, who are these "great unwashed masses"? And how do you know they are going to hell? You have a hot line to God? You are quite sure that all these masses have heard about Jesus, properly and clearly, and have consciously rejected him? And in any case, what has their personal hygiene got to do with it?

God has not told us his arrangements for those who have not heard the Gospel, nor for those who did not hear it clearly, due to defects in those who purported to tell them. He is a God of mercy, as well as justice, and above all, he is love. Would you, in a human situation, feel it was fair to imprison someone for life for not hearing about an event, if they lived in a country where that event was not talked about? No, I am sure you wouldn't. Why do you suppose God is unfairer than you are?

Neither do you, or anyone else for that matter, know the truth of what is in a man's heart. Just because they have not "accepted Jesus" in a way you might think appropriate, does not mean they have rejected him.

And I, for one, do object to being called God's "kid." A lazy and colloquial expression that is not justified in the same breath as the word "God".

Maccie

 

[Asaph]

So, Asaph, who are these "great unwashed masses"? And how do you know they are going to hell? You have a hot line to God? You are quite sure that all these masses have heard about Jesus, properly and clearly, and have consciously rejected him? And in any case, what has their personal hygiene got to do with it?

God has not told us his arrangements for those who have not heard the Gospel, nor for those who did not hear it clearly, due to defects in those who purported to tell them. He is a God of mercy, as well as justice, and above all, he is love. Would you, in a human situation, feel it was fair to imprison someone for life for not hearing about an event, if they lived in a country where that event was not talked about? No, I am sure you wouldn't. Why do you suppose God is unfairer than you are?

Neither do you, or anyone else for that matter, know the truth of what is in a man's heart. Just because they have not "accepted Jesus" in a way you might think appropriate, does not mean they have rejected him.

And I, for one, do object to being called God's "kid." A lazy and colloquial expression that is not justified in the same breath as the word "God".

Maccie

Wow! The unwashed masses I was referring to are those who have not been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. Further, it matters not what you or I think about the fate of those who reject Jesus. The bible is clear on the matter, pick it up and read it sometime.
God has chosen to call me His kid and I don't care one bit what you think of it. A sore price was paid for me and I will not dishonor God by claiming I am something other than what He Himself has called me.
I do have a question for you though. Why are you so froth with anger over my simple little warning about those who reject Jesus? My only point was to try and help us refocus on the Gift and the Giver in such a way that we might be a little more bold in singing His praises.
If I have thrown a rock over the house and injured you in some way, I truely do apologize for that. I meant no harm.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Duggie]

[Maccie]So, Asaph, who are these "great unwashed masses"? And how do you know they are going to hell? You have a hot line to God? You are quite sure that all these masses have heard about Jesus, properly and clearly, and have consciously rejected him? And in any case, what has their personal hygiene got to do with it?

Hi Maccie and welcome to CF I assume Asaph was refering to blood washed as opposed to soap and general hygiene.

 

[Asaph]

Hi Maccie and welcome to CF I assume Asaph was refering to blood washed as opposed to soap and general hygiene.

Yes. I took that just to be understood, and I guess I shouldn't have. My apologies to all the stinky people who may have taken umbrage to my remark.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Maccie]

You sounded like the Victorian do-gooders who sounded off about the "unwashed masses". Probably because they were unwashed, living in slums without running water! Its a phrase which grates badly with social historians!


I still ask, are you referring only to those who deliberately reject Jesus, having had the Gospel presented to them correctly, and who have thoughtfully considered it? Or are you referring to those who have not had a chance of either hearing about Jesus, or been prevented from hearing, or have had a heretical version thrust at them?

There will be masses of them, but I'm not so sure about people who reject Jesus deliberately.

Sorry I can't quote your post - I haven't sussed out this post bit yet!

And you can be a kid if you want - I'm too old for that!

Maccie

 

[Asaph]

You sounded like the Victorian do-gooders who sounded off about the "unwashed masses". Probably because they were unwashed, living in slums without running water! Its a phrase which grates badly with social historians!


I still ask, are you referring only to those who deliberately reject Jesus, having had the Gospel presented to them correctly, and who have thoughtfully considered it? Or are you referring to those who have not had a chance of either hearing about Jesus, or been prevented from hearing, or have had a heretical version thrust at them?

There will be masses of them, but I'm not so sure about people who reject Jesus deliberately.

Sorry I can't quote your post - I haven't sussed out this post bit yet!

And you can be a kid if you want - I'm too old for that!

Maccie

Hi Maccie, and truely welcome to CF,

No, the unwashed masses comment was only meant in the eternal, spiritual sense, and I really do apologize for the grief the comment must have caused you. There is certainly enough real grief and sorrow in this lifetime that I don't need to be adding to it because I'm too lazy to make myself clear.
There are some ongoing threads here that are rich with commentary both for and against the idea of God choosing us and I won't get into that again here just because it would be redundant to the max. But I do believe that Love is not Love without the recipient having the ability to refuse it. Love may produce feelings of love and being loved, but the true meaning of the word is a voluntary act. Therefore, predestination must give the receiver the ability to refuse the gift. That does not necessarily mean some carnal Christian somewhere could blow it for those whom God has chosen for salvation. God is way bigger than to have to worry that I might mess up His message. I may not understand how He does it, but I know it will be perfect and just when it's done. Personally, I'm just overjoyed that He chose me.
As for the kid thing, in the eyes of men I am way to old for it also, but in the eyes of my Lord I am just His child. And the Spirit within me provokes me to cry out "Abba, Father" which is Aramaic for "Daddy, Daddy". It is a sweet and affectionate cry to our Lord, and I can think of no better place for me to be than right there.
So I pray the wounds you may have recieved at my hands are soothed by the Love of our Lord Jesus, and I pray also that you forgive me.

Grace, Mercy, and overflowing Joy to you today from God the Father, and His Son Jesus our Lord,
Sincerely, (without wax)
Asaph

 

[Maccie]

Maybe you didn't have "the great unwashed" in the States! And maybe "kid" in the US isn't quite so colloquial as it is here!. When I was a wee lass (a long time ago!) a kid was nothing but a baby goat! Ah well, English is the language that divides. No offence taken - I know none was meant. I just like challenging what I see as sloppy thinking and sloppy writing!

Still think there are going to be great surprises in heaven!

Maccie

 

[Asaph]

Maybe you didn't have "the great unwashed" in the States! And maybe "kid" in the US isn't quite so colloquial as it is here!. When I was a wee lass (a long time ago!) a kid was nothing but a baby goat! Ah well, English is the language that divides. No offence taken - I know none was meant. I just like challenging what I see as sloppy thinking and sloppy writing!

Still think there are going to be great surprises in heaven!

Maccie

Woohoo! I made it! I'm a sloppy thinker and a sloppy writer too!...

That's got to make me smarter than two buckets of rocks....

Have a great day in the Lord,
Asaph

 

[Protoevangel]

Let’s see, according the context of your post, maybe you could tell us which of the following meanings you meant when you stated kid. Maybe it would be helpful for those of us who can’t figure it out:

a. A young goat
b. A child
c. To engage in teasing or good-humored fooling
d. Soft smooth leather


Maybe you can help us understand what you meant by “unwashed masses”, since your context wasn’t clear at all.

a. One of the common people of ancient Rome
b. A member of the lower classes
c. A vulgar or coarse person
d. One not washed in the cleansing and sin-redeeming blood of out Lord and Savior Jesus Christ


Gee, who’s the sloppy thinker?

 

[Asaph]

AAhhhhh........Alex, I'll take door number one for fifteen hundred.....


Asaph

 

[steelmagnolia]

Regarding people that have "never heard the gospel":

Romans 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Maccie]

As that passage from Romans patently does not apply to all those who have not heard the Gospel, I think we can safely say, as CS Lewis does in "Mere Christianity" that God has not told us his plans for those who have not heard the Gospel. And why should he?

Maccie

 

[steelmagnolia]

As that passage from Romans patently does not apply to all those who have not heard the Gospel, I think we can safely say, as CS Lewis does in "Mere Christianity" that God has not told us his plans for those who have not heard the Gospel. And why should he?

Maccie

It's the sermon our pastor gave on the very subject.
Repsectfully, it's how I understand it also.

Why should He? Well, because Jesus Christ said that there is ONE way to heaven and that is through Him. If there was another way - then he has lied and I KNOW He NEVER lies.

 

[JVD]

Yes there is only one way to heaven. Through the blood of Christ.

In my mind the fate of all those who have never heard the gospel may be the same fate as those who are too young to understand the gospel, even if they have heard it.

 

[Duggie]

[steelmagnolia]Regarding people that have "never heard the gospel":

Someone once remarked "If it is the case that those who never hear the gospel will be saved in their sinful condition, simply because they do not know the truth, would it not be better to leave them in that state of ignorance? For if they are exposed to the truth and then reject it, there is little controversy as to what their fate will be."

or

I read this at www.ChristianCourier.com

If salvation is to be bestowed upon honest/ignorant souls, apart from the redemptive mission of Jesus, then why did He come to earth to endure the cross? Did the Father whimsically send Him to die, thus initiating a "plan" of redemption, when, in reality, there was no need for such drastic measure?
The very thought of such is unbearable. If we may partially paraphrase Paul, if salvation is accessed apart from Christ, did He not die in vain? (Gal 2:21)

 

[JVD]

He needed to die to pay for our sins...

The question is...did he also pay for the sins of those so ignorant that they don't know their right hand from their left? In other words too ignorant to understand. Is understanding a prerequisite to heaven?

And the next question. If they are never faced with the decision to accept or reject Christ's gift...is that a rejection by default? or is it acceptance by default? What is your understanding of God's character in such cases?

 

[Maccie]

As far as I can recall, without going upstairs to check!, CS Lewis said that although the only way to God was through Jesus, it may not be necessary to know Jesus to reach God through him.

Because if those who have never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus cannot have eternal life, then there are all those in the Old Testament who must be languishing in Hell. And we know Elijah, Moses and Enoch are there. How come they made it and not others.

And on the subject of babies, born alive or dead, God is a merciful God, full of compassion. Do you really think he would not take them into his arms in heaven?

Maccie

 

[Asaph]

Hello Everybody,

No offense to anybody, but the thread has kind of gotten into discussing a topic it wasn't intended for, and one that already permeates a couple other active threads. Namely, who goes to heaven and who doesn't, and that wasn't the original intent of this thread. Not that we are not free to discuss anything we like, but the other threads already have a great deal of background on that issue, so why start over from scratch?
So, if possible, can we return to the original premise of this thread which was the fate that awaits those who do end up there, and hopefully, our own reinvigorated desires to sound the alarm by spreading the "Good News"?

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Shay2005]

Its threads like this that makes me stay farther away from Christianity....makes me strongly not believe in Jesus even more. When people say that we are going to hell and the truth be told....they have no idea if they will go to Heaven or Hell.

Oh yeah...just because you "believe" in G-d doesnt mean you are going to Heaven. I mean I believe and worship G-d but not Jesus....does that mean I go to hell or heaven?? So where am I going since you call all the shots and can tell where we all go when we die.