Those who choose Hell.......

[Treasure the Questions]

God is GOD. He inspired man to write down his words. I simply accept that because I have the faith that allows me to do it. I'm sorry that you are struggling with this. I hope one day you will, by faith, accept His word - all of his word. I know Revelation is difficult to understand because it was inspired through dreams but it is what He wanted it to be. I just accept it and take it literally. I believe one day Christ will literally descend from Heaven and his feet will literally touch the Mount of Olives.

This is not about God, this is about a basic understanding of our language. If you say God wrote the Bible that means he sat down with a pen and some parchment or papyrus and drew characters on it. Are you really saying God did that??

For the record I believe God inspired the Bible, but not in quite the same way you do.

Karin

P.S. I have faith in Christ and in God's grace, which is enough for salvation.

 

[steelmagnolia]

This is not about God, this is about a basic understanding of our language. If you say God wrote the Bible that means he sat down with a pen and some parchment or papyrus and drew characters on it. Are you really saying God did that??

For the record I believe God inspired the Bible, but not in quite the same way you do.

Karin

P.S. I have faith in Christ and in God's grace, which is enough for salvation.

But you don't believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God?

I do have a basic understanding of our language, thank you very much.

I don't remember saying HE "wrote" the bible but that HE inspired man to write down what HE WANTS them to write down - inspired. More than good enough for me. It's perfect and I accept it.

 

[Blade]

You know when I was a real young christian people always said if you want to know something just ask God. So one night I did. I said how can you send so many people to hell? He answered back just like this "for God so loved the world he gave his only son" He said "everyone has a choice" God sends no one to hell. Anyone there will know why and when the day,hour,min,sec they made that choice. Lets make sure we get it right God through Jesus the son wants EVERYONE home with him and not to loose one. I think we ack like it's no big deal to God but I can not imagine how God, Jesus well feel on that day when he has to keep his word about those how are still his childern, the reason he died but has to say you knew me not and your name is not written in my book. It is SO EASY to get there.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

But you don't believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God?

And?? There's nothing to say salvation depends on doing that.

By the way, to correct what you said earlier, this is not an issue I struggle with. I struggled with it for a couple of years as I worked free from all the evangelical indoctrination I've received over the years, and now I am at peace that I have a better way that brings me closer to my heavenly Father and his Son, and is also closer to what Jesus intended for his followers.

I do have a basic understanding of our language, thank you very much.

I don't remember saying HE "wrote" the bible but that HE inspired man to write down what HE WANTS them to write down - inspired. More than good enough for me. It's perfect and I accept it.

Sorry, got you confused with Asaph, there.

Karin

 

[calicoangel]

While I can't say it gives me any pleasure to think that any would suffer and I struggle to understand why a loving God would not do all he can to save all except perhaps the most wicked and cruel people from such a fate

He gave His life on the cross... What more do you want? He's done all He can. We just have to accept it.

This is not about God

What's not about God?? And I, for one, do believe that God wrote the Bible. His spirit was dwelling in those who penned the pages, so He wrote it.

And?? There's nothing to say salvation depends on doing that.

The Bible tells us of Jesus. Where at, other than the Bible, have you learned what Jesus did for us. Are you saying that you believe what the Bible says (enought to place your eternity in it) yet you doubt that it's God-breathed?? What a contradiction.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

He gave His life on the cross... What more do you want? He's done all He can. We just have to accept it.

What more do I want? That people who claim to follow him do not make out the God of love to be a God of hate and recrimination and by doing so drive people away from him.

The Bible tells us of Jesus. Where at, other than the Bible, have you learned what Jesus did for us. Are you saying that you believe what the Bible says (enought to place your eternity in it) yet you doubt that it's God-breathed?? What a contradiction.

I see no contradiction.

Karin

 

[calicoangel]

What more do I want? That people who claim to follow him do not make out the God of love to be a God of hate and recrimination and by doing so drive people away from him.

Who's done this? I think people confuse the fact that God is just and cannot abide sin with the notion that he's recriminating & hateful.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Who's done this? I think people confuse the fact that God is just and cannot abide sin with the notion that he's recriminating & hateful.

I think some people overlook that Jesus came to show us that God is far more loving than the Jews imagined and that the laws of the Old Testament must be interpreted according to the law of love. God is our heavenly Father who loves all human beings....enough to die for them. We are to show the world God's love, not alienate them from God with medieval (or earlier) mythology.

Karin

 

[Asaph]

I think some people overlook that Jesus came to show us that God is far more loving than the Jews imagined and that the laws of the Old Testament must be interpreted according to the law of love. God is our heavenly Father who loves all human beings....enough to die for them. We are to show the world God's love, not alienate them from God with medieval (or earlier) mythology.

Karin

Regretably you are not alone in your dismissal of the bible as God's inspired word for mankind. I have first hand experience with a very large worldwide cult that uses the same methodology to dismiss any of the bible that contradicts their false doctrine. Thankfully, God is faithful and He saved me inspite of it.

But I did have to repent and turn my heart toward Him. I did have to accept the free gift of salvation He offered, and from that day on I now sing glory, glory to the Lord.

Thank you Heavenly Father for saving a wretch like me,
Asaph

 

[Maccie]

Which cult was that Asaph? I'm not being sarky, I genuinely want to know. Was it the JW's?

Maccie

 

[steelmagnolia]

Karin, please explain to me about this statement. What do you mean? Do you think the Bible contains medieval and mythology? I don't think so at all. God would not have allowed it, for he inspired it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

God with medieval (or earlier) mythology

 

[Truly Blessed]

People do still actually read their bibles...don't they? (excuse me a second while I repaint the target on my chest........ )

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

Well should I give my 2 cents. Well maybe my fat stomach will protect my insides from any blows.

Quote From Asaph that started this tread.
"It is a fate too hard to contemplate and gives me great sorrow deep inside for those who will end up there. I know this is not a popular message and I for one spend most of my time "proclaiming the Light instead of railing against the darkness", but once in a while I think we need to remind ourselves of the horrors that await those who will not accept the gift of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah."

Personally, I am delighted that somebody has "great sorrow deep inside..." for somebody else. I also think of this sometimes.

lets see defense that Hell exists. But then somebody could argue the Bible is falloble - ops diffent thread so remember that.

Matthew 5:22 ....But anyone who says, "You fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire..

2 Peter 2:4 For if god did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, ...

Now then this is the NIV so let me check a different Version.

hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=hell&restrict=All&size=First+100

KJV listed words for Hell. opps I am not sure if I can hyperlink in this forum so add http www. in front.

O.K. I wish I could buy some armor to protect myself but I dont have enough blessings.

If you dont like the words I used, I suggest you translate them from the New World Dictionary. I think I have myself covered.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Regretably you are not alone in your dismissal of the bible as God's inspired word for mankind. I have first hand experience with a very large worldwide cult that uses the same methodology to dismiss any of the bible that contradicts their false doctrine.

Asaph, you seem to find it very hard to understand that not accepting every word in the Bible as directly from God does not mean I dismiss the Bible or don't think it does contain word's from God and is inspired by God in many parts. I value the Bible so highly that I have made efforts to understand it properly and to try to discover what it may have been meant originally, in order to help me understand what it means for me today. The Bible is not a collection of books you can just read from cover to cover taking every word and phrase literally.

Do you eat shrimps and wear mix-fibre clothing? If so you disobey God's clear instructions in Leviticus and no doubt you can give me reasons why those laws don't apply today. The same principles apply to the whole Bible. Each phrase and passage has to be understood in context. Some of it is to be obeyed and some of it no longer applies. Sometimes when we understand the customs of the ancient Jews it helps us to see how something applies to us much better than we did.

The dietary laws were very important for the Jews, yet because of Peter's dream, Christians believe that they don't apply to them. If you learn to read the Bible intelligently it will help you better understand which parts of the Old Testament still apply today, and which don't.

I don't belong to any cult and I do not dismiss any of the Bible that contradicts my doctrine. It was the conservative evangelical Bible study group I belonged to for five years that behaved like a cult in many ways. It is much conservative evangelical teaching, especially the more fundamentalist variety, that distorts the message of the Gospel - of Jesus Christi himself - to promote their own false doctrine in order to control people's hearts and minds by fear and guilt.

Thankfully, God is faithful and He saved me inspite of it.

But I did have to repent and turn my heart toward Him. I did have to accept the free gift of salvation He offered, and from that day on I now sing glory, glory to the Lord.

Thank you Heavenly Father for saving a wretch like me,
Asaph

Amazingly that was the same for me! God saves us because we repent and have faith in Jesus and in his grace, not because of our doctrine or because of how we interpret scripture.

Karin

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Karin, please explain to me about this statement. What do you mean? Do you think the Bible contains medieval and mythology? I don't think so at all. God would not have allowed it, for he inspired it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[/i]

What do I mean? I do not think that the Bible contains medieval mythology. In the original the Bible does not use the word "hell", which hopefully won't surprise you as I'm sure you know it wasn't written in English.

The word "hell" has certain connotations for us that are not conveyed by the words originally used. "Sheol" simply means a place of the dead. David looked forward to going there at one stage and he hadn't gone mad!

In Greek "Hades" replaces "Sheol" as the place of the dead.

It seems Gehenna was another word the Jews of Jesus' time used for the place where people went when they died.

The ideas many Christians have about "hell" today are based on Greek Philosphy and a whole mythology made up by the Catholic church - the only church in Western Europe at the time - in order to scare people into submission. It stopped them rising up against the ruling classes and was extremely effective.

I think we should all take a look at what Jesus meant by the word translated as "hell". Did he invisage eternal torment, a time when our spirits were enabled to repair their relationship with God, or exclusion from "God's chosen people"? Any thing esle is a simplistic explanation based on mythology and superstion and is not in the Bible.

Karin

 

[Asaph]

Which cult was that Asaph? I'm not being sarky, I genuinely want to know. Was it the JW's?

Maccie

Close, but no, I was a Morman. (is "sarky" slang for sarcastic? just curious)

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Duggie]

[Treasure the Questions]The Bible is not a collection of books you can just read from cover to cover taking every word and phrase literally.

Do you eat shrimps and wear mix-fibre clothing? If so you disobey God's clear instructions in Leviticus and no doubt you can give me reasons why those laws don't apply today. The same principles apply to the whole Bible. Each phrase and passage has to be understood in context. Some of it is to be obeyed and some of it no longer applies. Sometimes when we understand the customs of the ancient Jews it helps us to see how something applies to us much better than we did.

The dietary laws were very important for the Jews, yet because of Peter's dream, Christians believe that they don't apply to them. If you learn to read the Bible intelligently it will help you better understand which parts of the Old Testament still apply today, and which don't.

I don't belong to any cult and I do not dismiss any of the Bible that contradicts my doctrine. It was the conservative evangelical Bible study group I belonged to for five years that behaved like a cult in many ways. It is much conservative evangelical teaching, especially the more fundamentalist variety, that distorts the message of the Gospel - of Jesus Christi himself - to promote their own false doctrine in order to control people's hearts and minds by fear and guilt.


Amazingly that was the same for me! God saves us because we repent and have faith in Jesus and in his grace, not because of our doctrine or because of how we interpret scripture.

Karin

Couldn't have said that better myself, excellent points Karin

 

[Maccie]

Close, but no, I was a Morman. (is "sarky" slang for sarcastic? just curious)

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

Yes, you are dead right! (and there's another one for you!)

Maccie

 

[Asaph]

Yes, you are dead right! (and there's another one for you!)

Maccie

Yes, if I'm right I am dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ living in me.

Asaph

 

[Asaph]

What do I mean? I do not think that the Bible contains medieval mythology. In the original the Bible does not use the word "hell", which hopefully won't surprise you as I'm sure you know it wasn't written in English.

The word "hell" has certain connotations for us that are not conveyed by the words originally used. "Sheol" simply means a place of the dead. David looked forward to going there at one stage and he hadn't gone mad!

In Greek "Hades" replaces "Sheol" as the place of the dead.

It seems Gehenna was another word the Jews of Jesus' time used for the place where people went when they died.

The ideas many Christians have about "hell" today are based on Greek Philosphy and a whole mythology made up by the Catholic church - the only church in Western Europe at the time - in order to scare people into submission. It stopped them rising up against the ruling classes and was extremely effective.

I think we should all take a look at what Jesus meant by the word translated as "hell". Did he invisage eternal torment, a time when our spirits were enabled to repair their relationship with God, or exclusion from "God's chosen people"? Any thing esle is a simplistic explanation based on mythology and superstion and is not in the Bible.

Karin

Heres some to chew on.
Ps 55:13-15
13 But it was you, a man my equal,
My companion and my acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together,
And walked to the house of God in the throng.
15 Let death seize them;
Let them go down alive into hell,
For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.
NKJV
Ezek 31:15-18
15 "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
NKJV
Mark 9:42-48
42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where
'Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46 where
'Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where
'Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV
2 Peter 2:4-11
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)-- 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
NKJV

Asaph

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I have typed a full answer twice today, and twice it has been lost!

I shall try again tomorrow, and type it up in Word, just in case. However, the answers are mostly a copy of the notes in my NIV study Bible, so if you have access to one of those or somthing similar you can save me the trouble.

Karin