Those who choose Hell.......

[Treasure the Questions]

Yes there is only one way to heaven. Through the blood of Christ.

Yuk! I have visions of wading thigh deep in a river of blood to get to heaven.

I thought eternal salvation was gained by God's grace through faith in Christ.

Does the Bible mention heaven, or does the word there simply mean sky? Still that discussion is for another thread.

As to hell, the word most translated by that in the Old Testament is Sheol, which was simply the place of the dead.

When Jesus spoke of people going to hell he mostly referred to Gehenna (I think), anyway it was a valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem, which was used as the city dump. There were burning piles of rubbish (garbage) there. So I wonder if Jesus was warning people they would be worthless as rubbish (garbage) or excluded from God's chosen people or what. I doubt if he literally meant that God would throw people onto the city rubbish dump, and besides it's all just grass nowadays.

For the record, "the great unwashed" definitely reminds me of Victorian England. I've never heard it in the "washed in the blood of Jesus" sense before. Another awful phrase that conjures up people being rubbed all over with blood - oops misses a bit behind your ear, let's splash a bit of blood there! Eeeeuuk!!

Karin

 

[Asaph]

Its threads like this that makes me stay farther away from Christianity....makes me strongly not believe in Jesus even more. When people say that we are going to hell and the truth be told....they have no idea if they will go to Heaven or Hell.

Oh yeah...just because you "believe" in G-d doesnt mean you are going to Heaven. I mean I believe and worship G-d but not Jesus....does that mean I go to hell or heaven?? So where am I going since you call all the shots and can tell where we all go when we die.

Incredible, just incredible.

Asaph

 

[Duggie]

[=JVD]He needed to die to pay for our sins...

Absolutely!!!

The question is...did he also pay for the sins of those so ignorant that they don't know their right hand from their left? In other words too ignorant to understand. Is understanding a prerequisite to heaven?

God is love I would like to think that those with no understanding, especially those with some form of learning difficulty will be saved. If you have no understanding of sin or redemption because you can't comprehend such things then I assume God would show mercy. Wouldn't He?

And the next question. If they are never faced with the decision to accept or reject Christ's gift...is that a rejection by default? or is it acceptance by default? What is your understanding of God's character in such cases?

I would suggest that only God is in a position to answer that!!

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Its threads like this that makes me stay farther away from Christianity....makes me strongly not believe in Jesus even more. When people say that we are going to hell and the truth be told....they have no idea if they will go to Heaven or Hell.

Oh yeah...just because you "believe" in G-d doesnt mean you are going to Heaven. I mean I believe and worship G-d but not Jesus....does that mean I go to hell or heaven?? So where am I going since you call all the shots and can tell where we all go when we die.

I can understand that, Shay. I don't understand how people think that by telling people God is a horrible person who is going to throw you into hell unless.....(..unless what exactly? How do you phrase it?)...they will attract people to the God of love and grace let alone his Son.

I became a Christian because I fell in love with Jesus and thought he was an amazing person, not because of fear of hell, which I'm not sure exists anyway.

I see you are a Jew? Do Jews believe in anything like the fiery furnace of hell with the devil prodding his pitchfork into you? I believe it was basically made up in medieval times and based on Greek philosophy, but I'm not entirely sure. Am I right in thinking you have Sheol, which is simply the place of the dead? What sort of judgement, if any, do Jews believe God will mete out to the wicked? The Psalmist seemed sure God would punish them somehow.

If the rules of the board don't allow you to answer here perhaps you would be good enough to reply in a PM. I really am interested to know, as I'd like to try to understand what Jesus might have thought on these matters and Christian thinking seems rather confused by ancient Greek philosophy.

Karin

 

[27D4]

Great reminder Asaph. Unfortunately hell is not politically correct topic, even for some Christians.

 

[Shay2005]

I can understand that, Shay. I don't understand how people think that by telling people God is a horrible person who is going to throw you into hell unless.....(..unless what exactly? How do you phrase it?)...they will attract people to the God of love and grace let alone his Son.

I became a Christian because I fell in love with Jesus and thought he was an amazing person, not because of fear of hell, which I'm not sure exists anyway.

I see you are a Jew? Do Jews believe in anything like the fiery furnace of hell with the devil prodding his pitchfork into you? I believe it was basically made up in medieval times and based on Greek philosophy, but I'm not entirely sure. Am I right in thinking you have Sheol, which is simply the place of the dead? What sort of judgement, if any, do Jews believe God will mete out to the wicked? The Psalmist seemed sure God would punish them somehow.

If the rules of the board don't allow you to answer here perhaps you would be good enough to reply in a PM. I really am interested to know, as I'd like to try to understand what Jesus might have thought on these matters and Christian thinking seems rather confused by ancient Greek philosophy.

Karin

No we dont believe in hell. We believe in "Satan" but not the same way as Christians. We believe that G-d forgives so He wont send you to a place such as hell. I mean G-d is forgiving in my opinion. But yes we believe "hell" was made up later by Christianity. But I will PM you exactly what we Jews believe in regards to hell and satan.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Thank you, Shay. I look forward to hearing from you.

Karin

 

[Asaph]

Great reminder Asaph. Unfortunately hell is not politically correct topic, even for some Christians.

Thanks 27D4. I know for myself that when I contemplate an existance completely devoid of God my heart cries out in agony for those who may end up there, and I am more diligent in sharing my faith because of it. I'm the luckiest guy on the planet that God saved me, so yes, most of the time I'm thinking about and praising God for what He has done for me.

But the alternatives to eternity with God are all bad, (outer darkness, lake of fire, perdition, etc.) and I don't want to end up standing before the Bema Seat having to face God knowing I failed to sound an alarm because I was worried about what the world thought of the message.

And truely, the message of salvation is not about "hell avoidance" it's about Life, but if I could perchance scare one person enough with the horrors that await them in hell that they then turn their heart toward God crying out for Mercy, it's worth getting bashed by the PC crowd.

People do still actually read their bibles...don't they? (excuse me a second while I repaint the target on my chest........ )

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[steelmagnolia]

Yuk! I have visions of wading thigh deep in a river of blood to get to heaven.

I thought eternal salvation was gained by God's grace through faith in Christ.

Does the Bible mention heaven, or does the word there simply mean sky? Still that discussion is for another thread.

As to hell, the word most translated by that in the Old Testament is Sheol, which was simply the place of the dead.

When Jesus spoke of people going to hell he mostly referred to Gehenna (I think), anyway it was a valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem, which was used as the city dump. There were burning piles of rubbish (garbage) there. So I wonder if Jesus was warning people they would be worthless as rubbish (garbage) or excluded from God's chosen people or what. I doubt if he literally meant that God would throw people onto the city rubbish dump, and besides it's all just grass nowadays.

For the record, "the great unwashed" definitely reminds me of Victorian England. I've never heard it in the "washed in the blood of Jesus" sense before. Another awful phrase that conjures up people being rubbed all over with blood - oops misses a bit behind your ear, let's splash a bit of blood there! Eeeeuuk!!

Karin

How silly. It's not meant to be taken literally. Washed by the blood of Christ is meant as in "our sins have been cleaned because of the blood Christ shed on the cross for our sins." There's a great hymn "Washed in the Blood". Here it is:
Words: Elisha Albright Hoffman, Spiritual Songs for Gospel Meetings and the Sunday School (Cleveland, Ohio: Barker & Smellie, 1878).Music: “Washed in the Blood,” Elisha A. Hoffman

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Are you walking daily by the Savior’s side?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Do you rest each moment in the Crucified?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

When the Bridegroom cometh will your robes be white?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Will your soul be ready for the mansions bright,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

Lay aside the garments that are stained with sin,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb;
There’s a fountain flowing for the soul unclean,
O be washed in the blood of the Lamb!

Hell:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mat 5:22

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 5:29

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:28

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mark 9:43

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Hell was created for the devil and his angels--

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)​

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


So, as you can see - Hell is mentioned throughout scripture and it is not a dirty smelly dump.

 

[WashedClean]

God is love I would like to think that those with no understanding, especially those with some form of learning difficulty will be saved. If you have no understanding of sin or redemption because you can't comprehend such things then I assume God would show mercy. Wouldn't He?

I would suggest that only God is in a position to answer that!!

Hi Duggie,

Nice to see you again.

Someone said this in one of my classes at church and our Pastor said something interesting in response. He said if it's true that those who never heard the Gospel are automatically saved, then we should never go on another mission trip. Because it means they have now heard the Gospel and if they reject it, then they are destined for hell. But if we had never shared the Good News with them, they would be heaven bound.

I thought this was eye-opening.

Of course, you're right that only God can fully answer that question. But if God cannot be in the presence of sin, and we are ALL sinners, then how can they go to heaven?

Guess we will find out one day, but for now, I'm going to keep sharing the Good News!

God Bless,

WashedClean

 

[Treasure the Questions]

How silly. It's not meant to be taken literally....
...So, as you can see - Hell is mentioned throughout scripture and it is not a dirty smelly dump.

Not so silly. I've been a Christian quite a while and I know very well what you refer to, but those words still bring such images to my mind and I find the term distasteful. Imagine what non-Christians must think, plus it is downright confusing if you have no idea what is really being referred to. Hopefully you don't use that sort of terminology when talking to non-Christians.

As to hell, well I'm still trying to work out what the Bible actually does say about it, but the words translated as hell don't actually mean that as the Jews did not have a concept of hell as such. Much of our ideas of hell come from things that were made up in the Middle Ages and some of it comes from Greek philosophy, so I wonder what Jesus really meant.

Revelation was never meant to be taken literally. It needs interpeting even more than most of the Bible.

 

[Asaph]

Not so silly. I've been a Christian quite a while and I know very well what you refer to, but those words still bring such images to my mind and I find the term distasteful. Imagine what non-Christians must think, plus it is downright confusing if you have no idea what is really being referred to. Hopefully you don't use that sort of terminology when talking to non-Christians.

Well, surely if you find the clear message of the fate of the damned distasteful it must be wrong and I vote that we tell God He can't do that because it's not something we like.

As to hell, well I'm still trying to work out what the Bible actually does say about it, but the words translated as hell don't actually mean that as the Jews did not have a concept of hell as such. Much of our ideas of hell come from things that were made up in the Middle Ages and some of it comes from Greek philosophy, so I wonder what Jesus really meant.

So let me get this straight. You are jumping at the chance to believe in a god who would allow 2,000 years worth of people to be decieved by corrupted scriptures, but this same god you believe in is so fluffy and PC tolerant that he didn't really mean to say there is a place of eternal damnation for those who refuse to believe in him? Furthermore, you base this wind of doctrine on the fact that the same people who mostly missed their own Messiah also didn't have a doctrine of hell?

Revelation was never meant to be taken literally. It needs interpeting even more than most of the Bible.

Especially given the fact that it takes so much effort to explain away the easily understandable scriptures.

Wow, why must everything be so complicated? I believe that the God who wrote verse one, chapter one of Genesis is alive and well today and He is entirely able to give me the scriptures just as He wants. I mean, he spoke a UNIVERSE into existance!

Well, that was my rant. I hope it was tolerable.

Asaph

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Well, surely if you find the clear message of the fate of the damned distasteful it must be wrong and I vote that we tell God He can't do that because it's not something we like.

While I can't say it gives me any pleasure to think that any would suffer and I struggle to understand why a loving God would not do all he can to save all except perhaps the most wicked and cruel people from such a fate, it was the image of all this blood washing about that I was referring to. I can think of much better ways to explain it, which would make more sense to those who haven't been taught this peculiar language.

Especially given the fact that it takes so much effort to explain away the easily understandable scriptures.

Wow, why must everything be so complicated? I believe that the God who wrote verse one, chapter one of Genesis is alive and well today and He is entirely able to give me the scriptures just as He wants. I mean, he spoke a UNIVERSE into existance!

Unfortunatley life is complicated and anyone who thinks the Bible is simple to understand is deceived. If God took such care to give you "the scriptures just as he wants" how do you account for the different translations of the Bible that sometimes don't agree on how to translate a word in a way that makes a real difference?

Also, I'm intrigued to know how you think God wrote any of Genesis and where does the Bible say that he did so? Or did God speak to you personally about that.

Thank the Lord that when he created us he gave us brains and enabled us to use reason if we should choose to.

 

[steelmagnolia]

Not so silly. I've been a Christian quite a while and I know very well what you refer to, but those words still bring such images to my mind and I find the term distasteful. Imagine what non-Christians must think, plus it is downright confusing if you have no idea what is really being referred to. Hopefully you don't use that sort of terminology when talking to non-Christians.

As to hell, well I'm still trying to work out what the Bible actually does say about it, but the words translated as hell don't actually mean that as the Jews did not have a concept of hell as such. Much of our ideas of hell come from things that were made up in the Middle Ages and some of it comes from Greek philosophy, so I wonder what Jesus really meant.

Revelation was never meant to be taken literally. It needs interpeting even more than most of the Bible.

I do use that termimology when speaking to non Christians except I EXPLAIN what it means Just as I did for you, but I realize you know it already. From your first post, however, it didn't seem that evident. My bad.

My idea of hell comes straight from the scripture I posted. Many of those are the words of Jesus. I take Him and his word - all of it from Genesis to Revelation very seriously, very literally.

 

[steelmagnolia]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16

Also, I'm intrigued to know how you think God wrote any of Genesis and where does the Bible say that he did so? Or did God speak to you personally about that.

Thank the Lord that when he created us he gave us brains and enabled us to use reason if we should choose to.

I just want to say that I'm new to this site. I am, however, disappointed with the sarcasm that some Christians exhibit towards one another. I'm a member and mod of five body building boards and 99% of them are not Christians yet they treat each other much better than what I've seen. I'm disappointed.
Can we try better than this?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

To inspire and to write are not the same thing.

 

[Asaph]

Unfortunatley life is complicated and anyone who thinks the Bible is simple to understand is deceived. If God took such care to give you "the scriptures just as he wants" how do you account for the different translations of the Bible that sometimes don't agree on how to translate a word in a way that makes a real difference?

Actually, what you are calling translations fall into different catagories that you may not be aware of. There are those that are direct translations for those of us who prefer the richness of the originals and are studious enough to understand the meanings. There are also those that slightly paraphrase in order to display the meaning a little clearer for folks that may not have the inclination or resourses available to them that the more academic might have. Then there are those that actually transliterate in order to display the meaning behind the words more than the original word for word translations do.

Also, I'm intrigued to know how you think God wrote any of Genesis and where does the Bible say that he did so? Or did God speak to you personally about that.

Thank the Lord that when he created us he gave us brains and enabled us to use reason if we should choose to.

I'm so glad you asked:

2 Tim 3:13-4:1
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV
2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NKJV

What could I add to that?

Grace, Mercy, and Peace to you today,
Asaph

 

[steelmagnolia]

To inspire and to write are not the same thing.

God is GOD. He inspired man to write down his words. I simply accept that because I have the faith that allows me to do it. I'm sorry that you are struggling with this. I hope one day you will, by faith, accept His word - all of his word. I know Revelation is difficult to understand because it was inspired through dreams but it is what He wanted it to be. I just accept it and take it literally. I believe one day Christ will literally descend from Heaven and his feet will literally touch the Mount of Olives.

 

[Asaph]

God is GOD. He inspired man to write down his words. I simply accept that because I have the faith that allows me to do it. I'm sorry that you are struggling with this. I hope one day you will, by faith, accept His word - all of his word. I know Revelation is difficult to understand because it was inspired through dreams but it is what He wanted it to be. I just accept it and take it literally. I believe one day Christ will literally descend from Heaven and his feet will literally touch the Mount of Olives.

Amen!...Yeah baby, you go girl!..........er...........I mean..........acheem......Yes sister, tell it!...

Asaph......

 

[steelmagnolia]

Amen!...Yeah baby, you go girl!..........er...........I mean..........acheem......Yes sister, tell it!...

Asaph......

You gave me a good belly laugh, Asaph!