Thomas Jefferson Statue Toppled

[Ana the Ist]

For too long the US has been under the influence of a certain kind of mythmaking that has kept the white majority from dealing soberly with reality.

This is utter nonsense....

I've never met an American who wasn't aware that Jefferson or Washington owned slaves. On the other hand, I've had to explain that native Americans owned slaves or aided with the Confederacy about a dozen times to posters on here alone.

I'd say that if anything....white Americans have over estimated the "evil" their ancestors have done and all Americans, white or otherwise, are astonishingly ignorant of the evils that non-whites have done throughout history.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a case of people trying to employ the logic of "judge people who lived 200 years ago by today's standards"

If that's going to be the standard, then take down anything made by people more than 100 years ago...because times change, and I'd guarantee that nobody in those times would live up to today's social standards.


...and that's not just the case with political related stuff. It's true of a number of things.

People still pay homage to Isaac Newton in the science realm, even though he thought ingesting mercury would turn it into gold (which everyone in modern times knows is absurd), yet, it's not controversial to mention his name in a high school science class.

Aristotle thought the earth was the center of the universe...

etc...

People who were considered great men by the standard of their time wouldn't be considered great by modern day standards.

Does anyone think that Doctor from 1850 could sit at a table with modern day Doctors have anything even resembling a productive conversation about disease and medicine? If the best doctor in the world in 1850 treated people, and people applied 2020 standards to them, they'd be regarded as a quack/charlatan and probably be locked up for harming people. In fact, if there was a time machine, and we could bring prominent doctors from the 1800's to present day and show them an MRI machine, their comment would likely be "what is this witchcraft???"

That doesn't mean that a statue/museum/etc.. dedicated to Louis Pasteur is a "monument to incorrect theories about fermentation"...nor should it negate any of the positive contributions he had to medicine that were the building blocks to much better things later on.

But it's a bit like the fact we remember Isaac Newton as a great scientist, when in fact he stole a number of ideas from his colleagues. Some narratives have been minimized in the process of wanting to have heroes and "progress".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is utter nonsense....

I've never met an American who wasn't aware that Jefferson or Washington owned slaves. On the other hand, I've had to explain that native Americans owned slaves or aided with the Confederacy about a dozen times to posters on here alone.

I'd say that if anything....white Americans have over estimated the "evil" their ancestors have done and all Americans, white or otherwise, are astonishingly ignorant of the evils that non-whites have done throughout history.

I think it's safe to say that all kinds of people, in all kinds of occupations and positions, have been guilty of "evil." Of course, the Bible would just call it "sin."

 

[rjs330]

But it's a bit like the fact we remember Isaac Newton as a great scientist, when in fact he stole a number of ideas from his colleagues. Some narratives have been minimized in the process of wanting to have heroes and "progress".

What people seem to want to do now is over emphasize the "evil" and place it all on the backs of white people. And then demonize all whites and wipe out all all the great things they did accomplish while being flawed people of the time.

If we all decided that all people whomever owned slaves were so evil they couldn't be recognized then all ancient archicture should be destroyed and torn down. The history should be erased. African Americans should suffer too because their ancestors had and sold slaves. American Indians did the same. The middle eastern nation's did to. And some still do as they treat their woman as slaves.

We'll never get anywhere tearing down all the past and blaming whites for everything. That creates more division. We ALL know we had slavery and Jim Crowe. But we also know we got civil rights. The time for blame and hatred is over. It's time to work on the real solutions on how to help. It's time to build, not destroy.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

We'll never get anywhere tearing down all the past and blaming whites for everything. That creates more division.

I'll take a bit beyond, "we'll never get anywhere" and say that white people don't deserve that, and they needn't, and shouldn't, put up with it.

 

[Archivist]

We'll never get anywhere tearing down all the past and blaming whites for everything. That creates more division. We ALL know we had slavery and Jim Crowe. But we also know we got civil rights. The time for blame and hatred is over. It's time to work on the real solutions on how to help. It's time to build, not destroy.

But so many white people never accepted civil rights. Blacks were given the right to vote in 1867. Poll taxes and Jim Crow laws prevented most of them from voting for over a century.

Brown v Board of Education was handed down in 1954. Ten years later George Wallace was blocking integration at the University of Alabama. Many American schools are still segregated.

If white Americans had openly accepted desegregation and equal rights for all after the Civil War instead of fighting equal rights for more than 100 years we wouldn’t be having problems we are having now.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But so many white people never accepted civil rights.

Huh?

Brown v Board of Education was handed down in 1954. Ten years later George Wallace was blocking integration at the University of Alabama. Many American schools are still segregated.

Which schools are segregated?

If white Americans had openly accepted desegregation and equal rights for all after the Civil War instead of fighting equal rights for more than 100 years we wouldn’t be having problems we are having now.

I think you're mistaking civil rights and the civil war as having some connection.

 

[rjs330]

But so many white people never accepted civil rights. Blacks were given the right to vote in 1867. Poll taxes and Jim Crow laws prevented most of them from voting for over a century.

Brown v Board of Education was handed down in 1954. Ten years later George Wallace was blocking integration at the University of Alabama. Many American schools are still segregated.

If white Americans had openly accepted desegregation and equal rights for all after the Civil War instead of fighting equal rights for more than 100 years we wouldn’t be having problems we are having now.

I agree. There is no excuse for that. It was Democrats that caused that.

But now it's over and has been since the 60s.

Is it perfect now? Nope. It never will be as you know as a believer. Man will always be man. But there are no more laws nor are there any legal situations that are targeting black people. They are free and clear to pursue any opportunity they want.

 

[Archivist]

Huh?

You need to learn your history. As I said in my earlier post, many white people refused to accept blacks as equals more than a century after the Civil War. That is why there were whites only signs on drinking fountains and bathrooms until the 1960s, why blacks were forced to sit in the back of the buses. You don't think it is still going on? Just look at the blacks who have been killed by police for minor infractions of the law and in some cases for not breaking any laws.

Which schools are segregated?

What School Segregation Looks Like in the US Today

I think you're mistaking civil rights and the civil war as having some connection.

Did you pay any attention in history class? The Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, and the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution all came out during or following the Civil War. Of course there is a connection.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

They will pull down a few good statues. but, most people are very reasonable and will not support the damage of significant monuments--thinking of Jefferson and Lincoln in D.C. That would be tragic and the park service will not let that happen. Radicals will not be able to convince most local governments to willingly take down a Jefferson or Lincoln monument. I think there is a difference between the unauthorized destruction of monuments by crowds and the removal of monuments by civil authorities. If a community wants to remove a monument and lobbies the government to do it--fine. The unauthorized destruction of property is not a good thing. Local governments will have to take down confederate monuments if legal pressure is applied in most cases; that should probably be the course taken.

Oh sure...they defaced the 54th Regiment Memorial to black soldiers, for goodness sakes. And other War memorials to fallen soldiers from all over the country. Way to go.

 

[Caliban]

Oh sure...they defaced the 54th Regiment Memorial to black soldiers, for goodness sakes. And other War memorials to fallen soldiers from all over the country. Way to go.

What does that have to do with anything I said???

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

What does that have to do with anything I said???

Only referencing the "most people are reasonable and will not support the damage of significant monuments" part. No, these are not reasonable people. Reasonable people lobby to change laws. They don't remove statues that offend them.

 

[Caliban]

Only referencing the "most people are reasonable and will not support the damage of significant monuments" part. No, these are not reasonable people. Reasonable people lobby to change laws. They don't remove statues that offend them.

I didn't say the people pulling down statues were reasonable; I said most people are reasonable. See the difference? Most people will not support the removal of SIGNIFICANT monuments. That was my point.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I didn't say the people pulling down statues were reasonable; I said most people are reasonable. See the difference? Most people will not support the removal of SIGNIFICANT monuments. That was my point.

And my point is THESE people are not reasonable. The actions have shown this.

And I'm sure you are defining "significant" monuments in some way as to excuse the ones already toppled by vigilantes.

 

[Caliban]

And my point is THESE people are not reasonable. The actions have shown this.

And I'm sure you are defining "significant" monuments in some way as to excuse the ones already toppled by vigilantes.

You are completely misreading my posts.