Thomas Jefferson Statue Toppled

[Caliban]

I find no fault on both.

For a growing number of people, especially Blacks, a monument dedicated to Robert E. Lee or another leader in the Confederacy, represents ideological aberrant ideas. As communities and cultures change, people have every right to reconsider whom they community valorizes. Include the fact that many of these Confederate monuments were erected during the Jim Crow era to bolster support for white supremacist politics, it is reasonable to remove them. Thomas Jefferson famously said, "The earth belongs to the living." We are here now--the living get to decide these things.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Oregon



I remember back when the whole "let's destroy these statues" thing started. I remember having discussions on here where I asked what people would support if it happened to Jefferson or Lincoln.

I was told I was being irrational. I was told they were only going after statues that were set up by people wanting to celebrate the Confederacy. I was told that it was all about the reason why the statue was put up....not the statue itself.

It turns out I was right, and others didn't know what they were talking about. Thoughts?

I run into that a lot here.

 

[agapelove]

Not the whole story. The Sally Hemings debate provides hard questions for any conception of freedom. Historians struggle to find agreement here. Several Black intellectuals have surprising and heterodox things to say about it.

My post was not even about Sally Hemings. Rape is sexual contact without consent, but slavery is literal ownership of life without consent.

 

[public hermit]

Tearing down statues just represents that people living in the US are rootless

Well, you hit on a partial truth, by accident. Yes, some of those who are tearing down statues are rootless in that they can't trace their roots back past their ancestor slaves.

What does "equal" meant there, especially since only white men with property could vote?

That was my point. They didn't always embody the principles they propagated. We can do it differently, and we should.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Oregon



I remember back when the whole "let's destroy these statues" thing started. I remember having discussions on here where I asked what people would support if it happened to Jefferson or Lincoln.

I was told I was being irrational. I was told they were only going after statues that were set up by people wanting to celebrate the Confederacy. I was told that it was all about the reason why the statue was put up....not the statue itself.

It turns out I was right, and others didn't know what they were talking about. Thoughts?

I don't mind that a statue of Thomas Jefferson was toppled. I mean, the guy DID chop up the New Testament, taking out all that he didn't like, which was quite a bit really.

However, I'm more concerned about what it is that folks now intend to put up in its place. I'm a hope'n that it ain't "this" Dis from the Abyss. I might have to push it over all by myself little ol' self, bless my heart! :

 

[bèlla]

There has never been a time when I felt I needed to deface property or remove it from its perch. What a strange world we live in.

~Bella

 

[Dave G.]

Tearing things down without permission in public areas is destruction of public property. It's that simple. It used to be illegal.

 

[Desk trauma]

There has never been a time when I felt I needed to deface property or remove it from its perch. What a strange world we live in.

~Bella

I have felt the urge to do so over what a church I drove past regularly used to do with their flag display. They flew the Christian flag over the US flag and every time I drove past I considered attaching the pole to my trailer hitch and removing it but I refrained. Their property, their flags, their pole and all of that. The entire pole is now shorn off level with the concrete it was set in so I suspect someone with fewer scruples than I was thinking along a similar line.

 

[bèlla]

I have felt the urge to do so over what a church I drove past regularly used to do with their flag display. They flew the Christian flag over the US flag and every time I drove past I considered attaching the pole to my trailer hitch and removing it but I refrained. Their property, their flags, their pole and all of that. The entire pole is now shorn off level with the concrete it was set in so I suspect someone with fewer scruples than I was thinking along a similar line.

You've avoided the possibility of being arrested and having your story shared on CF.

~Bella

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Oregon



I remember back when the whole "let's destroy these statues" thing started. I remember having discussions on here where I asked what people would support if it happened to Jefferson or Lincoln.

I was told I was being irrational. I was told they were only going after statues that were set up by people wanting to celebrate the Confederacy. I was told that it was all about the reason why the statue was put up....not the statue itself.

It turns out I was right, and others didn't know what they were talking about. Thoughts?

One is always 'irrational' until proven correct. It's a law of nature.

Sometimes a slippery slope is actually a slippery slope.

 

[public hermit]

I think tearing down statues is pointless, unless we embody the great principles of this country as a result. But, of course, tearing down statues is not what it will take for us to better embody those principles. In fact, we could embody those principles without tearing down statues. So, in the end tearing down statues doesn't do anything. And that's what I find most concerning. Tearing down symbols, or symbols as they are perceived by some, can feel like an accomplishment. But it doesn't really get us closer to the goal.

 

[Desk trauma]

You've avoided the possibility of being arrested and having your story shared on CF.

~Bella

All I can offer is my honest testament that I respect others property and free exspression rights too much to have done so personally but I cannot muster a bit of displeasure at the displays disappearance.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does their destruction cause our laws to evaporate and libraries burn?

Libraries are full of books by dead white men. Don't be surprised.

 

[Caliban]

My post was not even about Sally Hemings. Rape is sexual contact without consent, but slavery is literal ownership of life without consent.

Sally Hemings was Jeffersons slave with whom he had several children. He freed all of them upon his death--he didn't have to. He did not free Sally however. This is where people begin to disagree. One perspective was that he cared deeply for Sally and freeing her would send her into the world penniless in old age--that Jefferson ensured she would remain at Monticello and have security. However, Like you said, no slave can actually consent. She was a Slave and Jefferson failed to ever free her--many see this as an irredeemable offense.

Sallys children were young enough to seek a better life as free men and women. I know you said your post wasn't about Sally Hemings, but it is part of the story whether it was in your thoughts when posting. I am just providing a bit of background and context. I don't mean to slam you point in any way--just keep the conversation going. My initial point was that it's not as simple as Jefferson had slaves--he's a bad guy.

 

[Desk trauma]

Libraries are full of books by dead white men. Don't be surprised.

And these people do not frequent them but, which one combusted due to this statue becoming less than vertical? Do tell!

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

It was never just about the Confederacy. It’s part of a broader attack on our civilization, of which artwork is a part.

 

[Caliban]

It was never just about the Confederacy. It’s part of a broader attack on our civilization, of which artwork is a part.

What do you mean "our" civilization? Do you mean American? Conservative? ???

 

[Desk trauma]

It was never just about the Confederacy. It’s part of a broader attack on our civilization, of which artwork is a part.

You're giving the riotous mob too much credit.

 

[bèlla]

All I can offer is my honest testament that I respect others property and free exspression rights too much to have done so personally but I cannot muster a bit of displeasure at the displays disappearance.

I understand. Things get under our skin. But we can't act on it. That's the difference between rational and reckless. I'm glad you didn't.

~Bella

 

[chevyontheriver]

And these people do not frequent them but, which one combusted due to this statue becoming less than vertical? Do tell!

Give it time. That which is inconceivable this week will be normal in weeks to come.