Thomas Jefferson Statue Toppled

[Desk trauma]

Give it time. That which is inconceivable this week will be normal in weeks to come.

As I said, if they start going after primary sources (after someone explains to them what those are) I will be right there with you. As for now, don't give these drooling monosyllabic vandals that kind of credit.

 

[Caliban]

Give it time. That which is inconceivable this week will be normal in weeks to come.

Thats what it is to be human. Sometimes that fact is negative; but a great many times it is positive. Most in the 1700's couldn't imagine an economy and culture without slavery. What was inconceivable is now normal.

 

[Dave G.]

You're giving the riotous mob too much credit.

Oh but it's not who's on the street but who is behind them. But pretty sure you know that.

 

[Desk trauma]

Oh but it's not who's on the street but who is behind them. But pretty sure you know that.

Is it still Soros or has he been displaced by some other big bad at this point?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What do you mean "our" civilization? Do you mean American? Conservative? ???

Western.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They will pull down a few good statues. but, most people are very reasonable and will not support the damage of significant monuments--thinking of Jefferson and Lincoln in D.C. That would be tragic and the park service will not let that happen.

This statue was, I believe, in front of a high school....so I don't think the park service is going to do anything about it.

Secondly, these people who are pulling down statues are slandering anyone who opposes them as racist. A lot of politicians are too afraid of being labeled racist by the mob to do anything about it.

Thirdly, what makes you think this won't keep happening? I get that a lot of people made post hoc arguments about why the statues were being torn down to justify people tearing them down....but you have no idea what the thought processes or rationale of the mob is.

For all you know, they could be targeting the statues of any white person born before 1950.

 

[Caliban]

Western.

Gotcha! I don't see any of these protestors converting to Eastern ideals. They tend to remain capitalists when entering adulthood (the left in general) and they sure love the prosperity supplied by free markets like the iPhone and Honda.

 

[Caliban]

This statue was, I believe, in front of a high school....so I don't think the park service is going to do anything about it.

Secondly, these people who are pulling down statues are slandering anyone who opposes them as racist. A lot of politicians are too afraid of being labeled racist by the mob to do anything about it.

Thirdly, what makes you think this won't keep happening? I get that a lot of people made post hoc arguments about why the statues were being torn down to justify people tearing them down....but you have no idea what the thought processes or rationale of the mob is.

For all you know, they could be targeting the statues of any white person born before 1950.

First: I was making a distinction between local governments and the Federal Park service. My point was that some monuments are more valued--like those in D.C. People would like to destroy them; but the I am hopeful that the government will stop it from happening.

Second: People calling others racist is wild outrage that doesn't make it true. Politicians are usually weak.

Third: I do understand leftist mob mentality--that's why I'm not one.

I'm not very worried about metal statues. I am more concerned with idiots in the street during down the fortunes of hard working business owners.

 

[wing2000]

Thomas Jefferson wrote that all men are created equal, a sentiment he obviously didn’t believe in considering he enslaved his own children.

At the time Jefferson wrote those words only white men held property and power. African Americans, Native Americans and all women were simply excluded.

 

[Caliban]

At the time Jefferson wrote those words only white men held property and power. African Americans, Native Americans and all women were simply excluded.

But Jefferson argued that slavery should be abolished in his only published book, Notes on the State of Virginia. He was arguably progressive for his time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Stuff like this was bound to escalate, and it will only escalate further in the future. While I personally find it kind of sad, as someone who is not African American I can sort of understand their distaste with such statues. As a kid when we were learning about George Washington and how much a hero he was, I always thought it was awkward for the few black kids in the class. George Washington might look down lovingly at us white kids from the clouds, but in a black kid's mind he would probably look in disgust at the few black kids in class. Lol.

I don't know, I guess I'm sort of in the mixed feelings camp regarding this. Just something that is going to happen as the racial demographics change.

I think the problem is that tearing down statues endorses a very one sided view of history. It reduces a complex figure like Thomas Jefferson to a very one dimensional character....a slave owner.

It's absolutely true that he owned slaves and even if we imagine that he was generally kind to them, he probably treated them very poorly at times.

Thomas Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves though...he was a brilliant polymath who had a key role in designing the very foundation of our society. I don't know how someone can reasonably assert that in spite of his massive contributions to the freedoms that we all enjoy today, he shouldn't be memorialized with a statue because he owned slaves.

It's a ridiculously ignorant position.

 

[Sparagmos]

Stuff like this was bound to escalate, and it will only escalate further in the future. While I personally find it kind of sad, as someone who is not African American I can sort of understand their distaste with such statues. As a kid when we were learning about George Washington and how much a hero he was, I always thought it was awkward for the few black kids in the class. George Washington might look down lovingly at us white kids from the clouds, but in a black kid's mind he would probably look in disgust at the few black kids in class. Lol.

I don't know, I guess I'm sort of in the mixed feelings camp regarding this. Just something that is going to happen as the racial demographics change.

Some context - Jefferson high school is “the” black school in Portland. So it’s particularly uncomfortable for those black students and their families that their school is named after a slaveholder.

I think it’s quite important that we finally reckon, in a real way, with the fact that so many of our “founding fathers” did some atrocious things. That there was a time not so long ago when certain groups were so dehumanized that people who were seen as wise and good treated them like animals. And we have to ask ourselves how we can expect the descendants of those dehumanized people to see the perpetrators revered and not be upset. We should also be asking ourselves what atrocities we commit now that seem normal and wise, that our descendants will be ashamed of? I don’t have an answer to how we move forward, but I feel no sadness about Jefferson’s statue being pulled down in my city and I support the call to rename the school.

 

[Desk trauma]

I think the problem is that tearing down statues endorses a very one sided view of history. It reduces a complex figure like Thomas Jefferson to a very one dimensional character....a slave owner.

Monuments to an individual tend to lead to a one demential positive view of their subject as they literally put them and their good deeds on a pedestal. The do not tend to leave a great deal of room for nuance by their nature.

Thomas Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves though...he was a brilliant polymath who had a key role in designing the very foundation of our society. I don't know how someone can reasonably assert that in spite of his massive contributions to the freedoms that we all enjoy today, he shouldn't be memorialized with a statue because he owned slaves.

It's a ridiculously ignorant position.

Agreed.

 

[Caliban]

Monuments to an individual tend to lead to a one demential positive view of their subject as they literally put them and their good deeds on a pedestal. The do not tend to leave a great deal of room for nuance by their nature.

That's a strong point.

 

[wing2000]

I think it’s quite important that we finally reckon, in a real way, with the fact that so many of our “founding fathers” did some atrocious things.

Acknowledge and recognize - yes. Our shared understanding of history needs to include all perspectives. However, I do not agree with simply disposing of statues based on a binary view of our founders. They acted and lived in the context of their time. They should be evaluated as such. After all, it was the words to Jefferson that ultimately led to "everyone" is created equal - recognizing that we still have a ways to go...

 

[agapelove]

Sally Hemings was Jeffersons slave with whom he had several children. He freed all of them upon his death--he didn't have to. He did not free Sally however. This is where people begin to disagree. One perspective was that he cared deeply for Sally and freeing her would send her into the world penniless in old age--that Jefferson ensured she would remain at Monticello and have security. However, Like you said, no slave can actually consent. She was a Slave and Jefferson failed to ever free her--many see this as an irredeemable offense.

Sallys children were young enough to seek a better life as free men and women. I know you said your post wasn't about Sally Hemings, but it is part of the story whether it was in your thoughts when posting. I am just providing a bit of background and context. I don't mean to slam you point in any way--just keep the conversation going. My initial point was that it's not as simple as Jefferson had slaves--he's a bad guy.

Sally Hemings was more than just Jefferson's baby mother, she was an enslaved woman who successfully negotiated extraordinary privileges from one of the most powerful men in the nation. The only point in my original post was that Thomas Jefferson is one of the most ironic Founding Fathers. He was both an idealist and a pragmatist, rarely practicing what he preached, like the fact that he owned and bought many slaves despite speaking negatively about the slave trade. I made no arguments about whether he was a good or bad person, I don't think anyone has the grounds to do so. But I personally also couldn't care less if we removed his statue and renamed the school.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Oregon



I remember back when the whole "let's destroy these statues" thing started. I remember having discussions on here where I asked what people would support if it happened to Jefferson or Lincoln.

I was told I was being irrational. I was told they were only going after statues that were set up by people wanting to celebrate the Confederacy. I was told that it was all about the reason why the statue was put up....not the statue itself.

It turns out I was right, and others didn't know what they were talking about. Thoughts?

Personally, I wouldn't destroy them. I think both sides go to far. But I have no attachments to statues or flags. What can you say, when the United States is nothing more, than stolen land. The history of this country is nothing to be proud of. I think people shouldn't try to destroy all the evil or good history.

 

[Ana the Ist]

At the time Jefferson wrote those words only white men held property and power. African Americans, Native Americans and all women were simply excluded.

And? Is that a reason why he shouldn't have a statue?

 

[wing2000]

And? Is that a reason why he shouldn't have a statue?

No. I was simply pointing out the reality of the time.

 

[Sparagmos]

Acknowledge and recognize - yes. Our shared understanding of history needs to include all perspectives. However, I do not agree with simply disposing of statues based on a binary view of our founders. They acted and lived in the context of their time. They should be evaluated as such. After all, it was the words to Jefferson that ultimately led to "everyone" is created equal - recognizing that we still have a ways to go...

Do you think it makes sense for a majority black school to be named after a slaveholder? And to pass by his statue everyday on their way in to school? It seems a bit much to me.

There are also so many statues missing! Perhaps if we added a lot more so that more Americans could see their own heroes represented there would be less of an urge to tear some down. If these statues are necessary and important to remember our history, then there is an argument to be made about the historic figures left out because they have not had equal representation.