This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[ToBeLoved]

Is the root of what your saying involve Pelagiustic thinking? If it does I know where you are going and I disagree 100%

God says that all who come to Him in faith, none are turned away.

The ability to have faith is something each of us have.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

All are given a measure of faith.

Calvanism is a horrible doctrine.

If you allow scripture to interpret scripture I believe it shows that the 'all men/ everyone' are the elect.

Let's look at some scriptures that use the word ALL in relation to salvation.

2 Cor 14-15)," For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for ALL, therefore ALL died; and he died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and rose again on their behalf"
* Here Paul speaks of ALL who died. But not ALL have died. He's speaking of Christians who have died in Christ. Therefor the ALL in this verse is Believers only not the unbelievers.

(1 Cor 22-23), " For in Adam all die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
* who are the ones being made alive in Christ? They are the Christians and only the Christians. The ALL who died in Adam are all that Adam represents; every individual who ever lived. The ALL in Christ are only the believers. Therefor again the ALL in this verse is only Christians.

(Rom 5:18) " so, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men. So also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to ALL men"
* Are ALL men justified? No only the Christians are justified. So again the ALL in this verse is speaking of only believers.

 

[-57]

All are given a measure of faith.

Calvanism is a horrible doctrine.

Are you saying all christians are given a measure of faith or all people?

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Calvanism is a horrible doctrine.

If by horrible you mean biblical, then yes.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you saying all christians are given a measure of faith or all people?

All people.

We all have faith when we come to Jesus Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If by horrible you mean biblical, then yes.

What Calvanism does with it's beliefs is divide the Kingdom and believers. There are the elect and the non-elect.

Truly bad doctrine when GOd says in His Word that He came so ALL could have everlasting life.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

The bible teaches that no one seeks for God (Rom 3:10-11). That we 'cannot' seek for God (1 Cor 2:14). If as a sinner who 'cannot' and 'will not' seek God, how does he seek for God? You can't! Your dead in your sins. Dead people don't seek for God. That is until faith is granted to us. Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65). So then, if the father doesn't grant it you won't believe. I just don't understand how scripture says we can't believe without God granting it and then people go and say "yes you can".

(1 Cor 2:14), "The person without the Spirit DOES NOT accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and CANNOT understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

But 'does not' and 'cannot' somehow means 'does' and 'can'?

 

[-57]

God says that all who come to Him in faith, none are turned away.

The ability to have faith is something each of us have.

The bible says..."no one understands; no one seeks for God."
The bible also says ...."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
The bible says God gives you to Christ...."All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
The bible says faith is a gift.... "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"

I think the bible teaches you don't have the ability to have faith unless God grants it to you.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

What Calvanism does with it's beliefs is divide the Kingdom and believers. There are the elect and the non-elect.

People not believing what the bible says is what's causing division. Besides this is a debatable issue both within orthodoxy. It's not an essential of the faith. If you don't believe osas. Election, predestination that's fine with me. As long as the essentials are there then your my brother/sister in Christ.

 

[-57]

What Calvanism does with it's beliefs is divide the Kingdom and believers. There are the elect and the non-elect.

Truly bad doctrine when GOd says in His Word that He came so ALL could have everlasting life.

Are you a universalist claiming all people are saved?

 

[-57]

All people.

We all have faith when we come to Jesus Christ.

Why would God give someone a smidgen of faith...a measure so small they would deny Christ?

 

[-57]

People not believing what the bible says is what's causing division. Besides this is a debatable issue both within orthodoxy. It's not an essential of the faith. If you don't believe osas. Election, predestination that's fine with me. As long as the essentials are there then your my brother/sister in Christ.

I agree.

 

[brotherjerry]

The bible says faith is a gift.... "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"

Just a quick note here...Ephesians 2:8 does not say that faith is the gift...it says that God's grace is the gift. English 101 can get you though this one. But if that fails...Ephesians 3:7 "of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power" and Ephesians 4:7 "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift."

 

[-57]

Just a quick note here...Ephesians 2:8 does not say that faith is the gift...it says that God's grace is the gift. English 101 can get you though this one. But if that fails...Ephesians 3:7 "of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power" and Ephesians 4:7 "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Grace and faith are the gift.

Eph 3:7 speaks of the gift of grace pertaining to Pauls ministry. I think you may have taken your view out of context a little bit. Eph 4:7 speaks about the gifts of grace that benefit the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes I'm serious. How can someone dead in their sins and transgressions have faith...unless God quickens them?

Because being "dead in their sins" doesn't mean non-functional. That's the problem with your view. To be dead physically means separation of soul and body, as James 2:26 indicates.

So, to be dead spiritually means separation from God. We are all born spiritually dead; separated from God, just as Adam found himself immediately after he bit into that forbidden fruit.

Jesus made very clear that "the dead (spiritually) can HEAR and believe.
Jn 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

It could not be more clear: "when the dead WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God". Note what it does NOT say: when the dead will be quickened so that they can hear the voice of the Son of God", which seems to be your view of things.

And note what happens after the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God: "those who hear will live".

So please note: the dead won't live until they hear. iow, they hear BEFORE they live. And they are dead WHEN they hear.

Your view does not line up with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All I have to say to you guys in this ...

"... narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:14)

My most sincere apology for adding to Scripture. lol
Enjoy your easy ride ... but, to where are you going?
'Tis a great shame that I'm not allowed here to say more!

Sad that your understanding of Mat 7:14 seems to be about one's lifestyle or works, or whatever. The verse is about narrowness in the FACT that salvation is ONLY through Jesus Christ. No other way; not by your works, your obedience, anything else.

Jesus said this:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me. Jn 14:6

That's what Jesus meant in Matt 7:14 about the way being narrow.

Or how Luke said it: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

That's what "narrow" means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

...and you can't have that faith unless God gives it to you.

Agreed, if using the word 'faith' as a noun. He gives us the body of what we are to believe.

But there are NO verses that indicate that God is the cause of anyone believing in Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Grace and faith are the gift.

Eph 3:7 speaks of the gift of grace pertaining to Pauls ministry. I think you may have taken your view out of context a little bit. Eph 4:7 speaks about the gifts of grace that benefit the church.

Romans 12New King James Version (NKJV)
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

However you want to read this, still God gives to each some measure of faith, so faith is a gift of God. Paul says even his ability to teach with authority to others is by God's grace.

Even a tiny faith is enough in Christ's sight to do amazing things of God.
Matthew 17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you allow scripture to interpret scripture I believe it shows that the 'all men/ everyone' are the elect.

Nope. All men/everyone means exactly that: everyone. Not "some of all people". There is no context for "less than the entire human race in 2 Cor 5:14 and 15, nor in Heb 2:9, all of which say plainly that Christ died for all. Not most, not some. All. As in everyone.

Let's look at some scriptures that use the word ALL in relation to salvation.

2 Cor 14-15)," For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for ALL, therefore ALL died; and he died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and rose again on their behalf"
* Here Paul speaks of ALL who died. But not ALL have died. He's speaking of Christians who have died in Christ. Therefor the ALL in this verse is Believers only not the unbelievers.

Please support your claim here with actual exegesis. When Paul wrote that "all died" he was repeating himself from Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

How many humans have not sinned? None. For ALL have sinned. That means all of the human race. That is what Paul means in 2 Cor 5:14 and 15.

(1 Cor 22-23), " For in Adam all die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
* who are the ones being made alive in Christ? They are the Christians and only the Christians. The ALL who died in Adam are all that Adam represents; every individual who ever lived. The ALL in Christ are only the believers. Therefor again the ALL in this verse is only Christians.

There is nothing here saying that Christ died ONLY for those 'in Christ'.

(Rom 5:18) " so, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men. So also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to ALL men"
* Are ALL men justified? No only the Christians are justified. So again the ALL in this verse is speaking of only believers.

Nice try but no dice.

If you want "justification of life to all men" to refer ONLY to believers (or the elect), then you also MUST accept that "there resulted condemnation to all men" also refers ONLY to believers.

Therefore, you HAVE to accept that not all humans were condemned; only believers (or the elect). Therefore, those not condemned (not the elect) don't need justification.

Maybe you're unaware of it, but your view leads directly to univeralism!! Wowsers!.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The bible teaches that no one seeks for God (Rom 3:10-11). That we 'cannot' seek for God (1 Cor 2:14). If as a sinner who 'cannot' and 'will not' seek God, how does he seek for God? You can't! Your dead in your sins. Dead people don't seek for God. That is until faith is granted to us. Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65). So then, if the father doesn't grant it you won't believe. I just don't understand how scripture says we can't believe without God granting it and then people go and say "yes you can".

(1 Cor 2:14), "The person without the Spirit DOES NOT accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and CANNOT understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

But 'does not' and 'cannot' somehow means 'does' and 'can'?

Well let's look at your verses in context.

Romans 3:9-12
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


The verses above is obviously talking about sin and being righteous.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

These verses are telling us that a man without the Holy Spirit does not know the things of God that are spiritual. Because they are spiritually discerned and that they do not have the Holy Spirit of truth.

You said that man does not come to God by faith, but none of these verses speak at all to coming to God about faith. Try to keep it in the correct context.