This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[-57]

Because being "dead in their sins" doesn't mean non-functional. That's the problem with your view. To be dead physically means separation of soul and body, as James 2:26 indicates.

So, to be dead spiritually means separation from God. We are all born spiritually dead; separated from God, just as Adam found himself immediately after he bit into that forbidden fruit.

Jesus made very clear that "the dead (spiritually) can HEAR and believe.
Jn 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

It could not be more clear: "when the dead WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God". Note what it does NOT say: when the dead will be quickened so that they can hear the voice of the Son of God", which seems to be your view of things.

And note what happens after the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God: "those who hear will live".

So please note: the dead won't live until they hear. iow, they hear BEFORE they live. And they are dead WHEN they hear.

Your view does not line up with Scripture.

If you back up a verse you will read that they have "passed out of death into life" .....once into spiritual life they could hear.
Just like lazarus. "Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

I do think were beginning to split the issue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bible teaches that no one seeks for God (Rom 3:10-11). That we 'cannot' seek for God (1 Cor 2:14).

Yet Scripture clearly indicates those who do seek God. Acts 10 and Cornelius. Rom 10:2 - For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

How can one "have zeal" for God apart from seeking Him. The Pharisees were seeking God, but not according to knowledge.

Psa 9:10 - And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bible says..."no one understands; no one seeks for God."
The bible also says ...."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
The bible says God gives you to Christ...."All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
The bible says faith is a gift.... "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"

I think the bible teaches you don't have the ability to have faith unless God grants it to you.

It takes no ability to "have faith". Faith is a noun. Faith as a noun is what we are to believe, which is the Bible. God's Word. The action is to believe it. No where does Scripture tell us that God gives us the ability to believe the gospel. No where.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why would God give someone a smidgen of faith...a measure so small they would deny Christ?

We all are given faith of some kind. Wiht that faith some choose to beleive in Jesus CHrist while others choose not to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why would God give someone a smidgen of faith...a measure so small they would deny Christ?

How can any measure of faith result in denying Christ?? Remember the mustard seed? Mark 4:31

 

[ToBeLoved]

If by horrible you mean biblical, then yes.

No,, I mean horrible as in horrible. A doctrine that divides people by Calvanist saying that some people are drawn by God to be elect and others are not.

Horrible by limiting the amount of people that they say can come to Christ. ALL is ALL.

Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind. Christ wishes that ALL would be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you back up a verse you will read that they have "passed out of death into life" .....once into spiritual life they could hear.

v.24 doesn't help your view at all. It begins with "whoever hears and believes". That doesn't exclude anyone. In fact, it INCLUDES everyone. and v.25 is clear about the dead hearing. Obviously a reference to spiritual death. iow, before regeneration.

Just like lazarus. "Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”

This has nothing to do with regeneration at all. Not even close.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Let's back up to v.24 in that same chapter where Jesus said: "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins".

I do think were beginning to split the issue.

I do not.

 

[-57]

Agreed, if using the word 'faith' as a noun. He gives us the body of what we are to believe.

But there are NO verses that indicate that God is the cause of anyone believing in Christ.

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

28in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

1 Cor 1:30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Do you still say there are no verses?

 

[-57]

Romans 12New King James Version (NKJV)
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

However you want to read this, still God gives to each some measure of faith, so faith is a gift of God. Paul says even his ability to teach with authority to others is by God's grace.

Even a tiny faith is enough in Christ's sight to do amazing things of God.
Matthew 17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Matt 6:37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[-57]

We all are given faith of some kind. Wiht that faith some choose to beleive in Jesus CHrist while others choose not to.

Chapter and verse please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Let's back up to John 6:70 where Jesus told all 12 disciples that He chose them, and one of them was a devil (Judas).

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

So? Revealing truth isn't anywhere close to being the cause of one believing the truth.

28in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Granting one to believe isn't causing one to believe. The meaning of "grant" means to allow.

John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Again, granting is permission, not causation.

Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

<sigh> One very misunderstood and mangled verse. The Greek word is 'tasso' and basically means to line up, arrange in order. And because of the verb tense, the forms for both middle and passive are the SAME. So, in spite of lexicons saying that the word is passive here, the only way to determine the voice is by context. And since v.44 says that "nearly the whole city gathered" to hear Paul, it's real obvious that the Greek were lining themselves up to hear Paul. This verse does not say anything about God ordaining any one to believe.

In fact, that same word is translated "devoted" in 1 Cor 16:15.

Acts 16:14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Again, this isn't about causing her to believe. Note that she was already a "worshiper of God", just as Cornelius was. God opened her heart so she could understand the gospel.

1 Cor 1:30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

I don't see any words that mean that God causes anyone to believe.

Do you still say there are no verses?

Yes, as I've just shown. None of the verses support your claim.

 

[-57]

Let's back up to John 6:70 where Jesus told all 12 disciples that He chose them, and one of them was a devil (Judas).


So? Revealing truth isn't anywhere close to being the cause of one believing the truth.


Granting one to believe isn't causing one to believe. The meaning of "grant" means to allow.


Again, granting is permission, not causation.


<sigh> One very misunderstood and mangled verse. The Greek word is 'tasso' and basically means to line up, arrange in order. And because of the verb tense, the forms for both middle and passive are the SAME. So, in spite of lexicons saying that the word is passive here, the only way to determine the voice is by context. And since v.44 says that "nearly the whole city gathered" to hear Paul, it's real obvious that the Greek were lining themselves up to hear Paul. This verse does not say anything about God ordaining any one to believe.

In fact, that same word is translated "devoted" in 1 Cor 16:15.


Again, this isn't about causing her to believe. Note that she was already a "worshiper of God", just as Cornelius was. God opened her heart so she could understand the gospel.


I don't see any words that mean that God causes anyone to believe.


Yes, as I've just shown. None of the verses support your claim.

Show me a verse which says we have free will to accept Jesus or reject Jesus.

 

[brotherjerry]

Are you serious 57? Have you not read the Bible? How many times did Israel have to be rebuked in the OT? Why did Noah have to build an Ark? Why did Sodom and Gomorrah have to be destroyed? Your question is proven throughout the Bible in that man has free will. If man did not have free will, Adam would have never eaten the fruit.

 

[-57]

Are you serious 57? Have you not read the Bible? How many times did Israel have to be rebuked in the OT? Why did Noah have to build an Ark? Why did Sodom and Gomorrah have to be destroyed? Your question is proven throughout the Bible in that man has free will. If man did not have free will, Adam would have never eaten the fruit.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Free will concerning salvation. I'm not talking about free will and what you'll have for dinner today.

 

[brotherjerry]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Free will concerning salvation. I'm not talking about free will and what you'll have for dinner today.

Again....how many times were the Hebrews blessed by God, obedient to God, then turned away to be rebuked? Adam was the closest any man could ever be to God...yet he chose disobedience. The Bible is full of examples of people choosing to not follow God, or to follow God. So the entire text is about man's free will to choose to worship God.

What you will not find in the Bible is that God gave man a limited free will...that he could choose what he wanted for breakfast but he could not choose to worship God. That sort of doctrine is not in the Bible at all.

 

[-57]

Again....how many times were the Hebrews blessed by God, obedient to God, then turned away to be rebuked? Adam was the closest any man could ever be to God...yet he chose disobedience. The Bible is full of examples of people choosing to not follow God, or to follow God. So the entire text is about man's free will to choose to worship God.

What you will not find in the Bible is that God gave man a limited free will...that he could choose what he wanted for breakfast but he could not choose to worship God. That sort of doctrine is not in the Bible at all.

A simple chapter and verse is all I'm asking for.

 

[sdowney717]

Are you serious 57? Have you not read the Bible? How many times did Israel have to be rebuked in the OT? Why did Noah have to build an Ark? Why did Sodom and Gomorrah have to be destroyed? Your question is proven throughout the Bible in that man has free will. If man did not have free will, Adam would have never eaten the fruit.

Adam and Eve did freely eat of the forbidden fruit in Eden. It is true they had not fallen yet, so were not tainted with evil. Satan had not yer corrupted them. They were innocent yet deceived.
Afterwards man is a fallen and doomed race, become slaves of sin. Man is no longer having a pure free will anymore, he is corrupted.
God decided to destroy every living thing of flesh since all of it is corrupted by Satan and sin. Except for some chosen things God preserved to be spared to begin again for a new start, The Nephilim had corrupted the genetics of everything on the earth. The Messiah could no longer be born, purely of human origin and God, Recall Jesus said the prince of this world comes, and he has no part in ME. Satan had inserted his seed, the seed of the serpent into all life on the earth corrupting everything. Christ could and would not be born of demon manipulated seed, Satan could have no part in Christ's birth, however small it might be.

 

[AndOne]

All are given a measure of faith.

Calvanism is a horrible doctrine.

Clearly you have no idea what Calvinism is since you don't even know how to spell it. So perhaps you should look into it first before you make baseless accusations. I recommend you start with the Canons of Dordt.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Clearly you have no idea what Calvinism is since you don't even know how to spell it. So perhaps you should look into it first before you make baseless accusations. I recommend you start with the Canons of Dordt.

Since you said it, it must be true.

 

[AndOne]

Since you said it, it must be true.

said what?