This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[nobdysfool]

Aren't thou up to snuff on the condition of the N. A. churches?
It is DEPLORABLE!
Which is why I'm here ... to warn them.

The sheep are NOT being taught about the ramifications of sinning!
The terms "easy grace", "greasy grace", etc. just refer to
the false teaching that believers can get to heaven,
regardless if they are habitual sinners, or not.

Just a little point, THIS (C.F.) is NOT a church! You're preaching to the choir here, and the choir is finding a lot that is not correct in your message. Nevertheless, go warn the churches, and stop shouting in here, and accusing us falsely in this forum where we all ARE Christians, and the very fact that we are discussing these things is an indication that we DO take our salvation seriously, and we DO want to walk in obedience to the Lord. We are tired of the negative nellies coming in here, smearing us and calling us unsaved, apostate, and living in habitual sin, when that is most decidedly NOT the case here.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Take it out to the churches. This isn't the place for it. You are insulting your own brethren, you are making false claims about them, and we are asking you to cease and desist with this misplaced garbage. if you are talking and warning the North American churches, Go do so! This is not your mission field in here.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[nobdysfool]

Unless you want to affirm Purgatory and/or Universal Reconciliation, it is a bad idea to connect this with:

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleaneth it, that it my bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abideth not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Christ clearly teaches that branches IN him can be cut off and thrown into the fire. There is no room here to say that these branches were never truly in him to begin with. That is nonsense. It tells them to ABIDE in him. Abide means to REMAIN. Those in Christ have to remain in him. It is possible for one who is truly IN Christ to be cut off from him if they do not REMAIN in him and bear fruit. Those CUT OFF from Christ, who is our life, are WITHERED, they DIE, and are thrown into the fire, and THEY, not their works only, are burned. This is so contrary to OSAS and Faith Alone.

And it clearly goes against the way you are using that Scripture from 1Corinthians. If you want to continue to use that text the way you do, you must affirm it teaches Purgatory and/or Universal Reconciliation. I have no problem with those doctrines; but I'm willing to bet you do.

This describes a Graceless salvation, where once one believes, it is up to them, and only them, to hang on to it. And the underlying assumption is that God doesn't really expect you to be able to. That's the message that is being preached here, by the "You can't do it" crowd, and they are actually trying to rob Christians of the joy of their salvation, and the peace and security of knowing that even though one may stumble and fall, the Lord upholds him with His Hand, and will lead him back to safety.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[nobdysfool]

There is no such thing as graceless salvation. Not true salvation. False salvation is not salvation. A person who was never in Christ to begin with shouldn't be spoken of as one who was. Christ speaks the same way about those in him who do not abide in him when he says "in him." To say that this is talking about people who were never truly in Christ to begin with is to make God a lying deceiver of necessity. He is stating something as a fact which really actually isn't and only those like you who have supposedly be predestined from the foundation of the world to see it and accept it can. If this is the way God's Word really is, then every unbeliever rightly rejects it because they have integrity. You can argue that away all you want with more Bible quotes but it doesn't change the reality. It seems that you think because God is all-sovereign that this means he can sin and get away with it and not be a sinner. Of course this is Calvinism in a nutshell.

Who said anything about Calvinism? Right there it has been revealed the real reason for the insults, denigration, and vilification of those who don't just roll over and accept without question these "pronouncements." Accusing me or any other person here of believing we can sin with impunity is a flat out LIE. No one here has said anything of the sort, and Calvinism itself does not teach any such thing. The accusation is a lie, which means it is a sin, and it needs to be repented of. Bearing false witness is forbidden by God's law.

No one is saying that "you can't do it." We are saying that ANYONE CAN, if they want to. We are not saying it is ONLY up to man. We agree without him we can do nothing. However, it is up to man to do his part. God has done and is doing his part already. It is up to us to do ours. Synergy, "workers together with God." Not, he did it for me from eternity past and all I have to do is trust and receive that, which God also did for me from eternity past. No, our part is to abide in him and bear fruit and he will make sure it happens till the end along as we put forth the effort.

What is being presented is bondage, negativity, and doom and gloom. Not likely to win souls with such a message. What is being said is that we must add to what Christ has done to secure salvation.

 

[-57]

I said this:
"Could you provide some Scripture that indicates that one must be regenerated either before they believe or in order to believe (no real difference)?"

This doesn't support the claim that one must be regenerated before they believe. Just look at v.5 and see that to "see" is equated with to "enter".

iow, in order to see the kingdom, one must enter the kingdom.

Think of the kingdom as a large room. Unless one enters the room, they cannot see the room. They have to enter the room in order to see the room.

Here is the Scripture that shows that faith precedes regeneration:

Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

The parenthesis defines what "made us alive" means. To be "made alive", which is another phrase for being born again or regenerated, means to be saved.

iow, those who are made alive are saved. Or, those who are saved have been made alive.

Now consider v.8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

So, we "have been saved" THROUGH faith. iow, faith precedes salvation, or Paul's statement is screwed up. We can't be saved through faith if we are saved before we believe.

We are saved because we believe. Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

I would say we can't even have faith unless we're regenerated. We can't even believe unless were regenerated. As you pointed out above..."Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions"...we were DEAD. Dead to the point we couldn't/can't believe. God gives us the ability to believe. Verse 2:8 points out grace and faith are a gift from God.
Actually I think regeneration and faith happen at the same moment....but if I had to look at it linearly I would say regeneration comes first. Like Jesus told Nocodemus....you must be born again, "before" you.....

Of course if you are into pelagianism or semi pelagianism I understand you will want to argue the point.

 

[ZacharyB]

Please cite a verse that teaches this. This is a challenge.
... please show where one must be a disciple in order to receive salvation.

I can show many verses that plainly tell us that we receive salvation
and eternal life on the basis of faith, apart from any other condition.

Jesus indicated this in John 15 ... see el posto #46.

Guess you haven't read where it says FAITH W/O WORKS IS DEAD.
Can one get into heaven w/o faith?

 

[ZacharyB]

If you are a true believer....and fall into sin you are still saved. BUT, the bible tells of the bema seat judgement of Christ.
1st Cor 3:15 tells us this.....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
...That individual will suffer loss. They're saved....using todays idiom...by the skin of their teeth.

A Scriptural example that believers can indeed lose salvation
because of habitual sinning is seen in my signature below.
Can't you "see" it?

 

[-57]

A Scriptural example that believers can indeed lose salvation
because of habitual sinning is seen in my signature below.
Can't you "see" it?

I read it. You seemed to add some commentary to the verse which is not in the original. Why?

 

[ZacharyB]

I read it.
You seemed to add some commentary to the verse which is not in the original.
Why?

Because many people cannot read with understanding, spiritual or otherwise.

Does Jesus go around killing people because they sin habitually,
resulting in their (physical) death?

 

[ZacharyB]

You're barking up the wrong tree. Take it out to the churches. This isn't the place for it. You are insulting your own brethren, you are making false claims about them, and we are asking you to cease and desist with this misplaced garbage. if you are talking and warning the North American churches, Go do so! This is not your mission field in here.

I realize that you don't want to hear the Truth.
But, you should have realized by now that ...
those who receive a spiritual revelation that what I am saying is the Truth
... will go out to the churches and pass these Truths along!

 

[ZacharyB]

It is critical to understand (from reading ALL of Scripture)
what key words actually mean!

True saving "belief" ...
includes loving Father God and Jesus enough to be obedient to Their commandments.
True saving "faith" ... means the same.
.

 

[nobdysfool]

I realize that you don't want to hear the Truth.
But, you should have realized by now that ...
those who receive a spiritual revelation that what I am saying is the Truth
... will go out to the churches and pass these Truths along!

That is a flat-out falsehood, accusing me of not wanting to hear the Truth. Where do you get the idea that insulting the brethren adds any weight to your argument? the arrogance presented effectively negates anything you're trying to say. You're acting like a bully. Please cease and desist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would say we can't even have faith unless we're regenerated. We can't even believe unless were regenerated.

Are you serious? There are so many verses that talk about how we are saved through faith. Faith and belief are part of what brings us to Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is critical to understand (from reading ALL of Scripture)
what key words actually mean!

True saving "belief" ...
includes loving Father God and Jesus enough to be obedient to Their commandments.
True saving "faith" ... means the same.
.

Can we stick with scripture rather than your thoughts of what anything means.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I realize that you don't want to hear the Truth.
But, you should have realized by now that ...
those who receive a spiritual revelation that what I am saying is the Truth
... will go out to the churches and pass these Truths along!

I am saying this with love. You need to humble yourself. No one can get anything through to anyone else when they start throwing words around and turning God's Word into a sword to fight with. Calm down.

Let's discuss this. No put-downs. Just scripture and conversation.

 

[ZacharyB]

Can we stick with scripture rather than your thoughts of what anything means.

All I have done is quote Scripture.
Butski, it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears.
So, I refrain from posting more.
Perhaps, you desire for me to post the foist ones again?

Why don't you comment on my signature?
Last time I looked, it is Scripture.

What I post is for those who are NOT spiritually blind and deaf.
I really don't want to argue with those who are!

 

[ToBeLoved]

All I have done is quote Scripture.
Butski, it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears.
So, I refrain from posting more.
Perhaps, you desire for me to post the foist ones again?

Why don't you comment on my signature?
Last time I looked, it is Scripture.

What I post is for those who are NOT spiritually blind and deaf.
I really don't want to argue with those who are!

Maybe it is because you have not created a good enough case. If you read Paul's epistles you can see how he teaches and even corrects the churches he started. He teaches with love, humbleness, yet get's his point across.

If you see yourself as a teacher of God's Word, then will you be getting anywhere using phrases like:

* But, it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears
* What I post is not for those who are spiritually blind and deaf ears

I'm not sure what you think is teaching God's Word. Does it not involve very good knowledge of scripture, much prayer, patience and diligence combined with a long suffering servants attitude? I think that you might think teaching God's Word and changing minds is much easier than it actually is.

 

[ZacharyB]

TBL,
I always start out as you would have me do,
but because of so much spiritual blindness,
I become frustrated and resort to what you are complaining of.
And it cannot be all blindness ...
how about some downright disobedience and rebellion
... refusal to accept the clear warnings in Scripture.
Let's face it, the churches today are filled with believers who love their sin!
Don't you know we're in the Laodicean church age?

 

[nobdysfool]

All I have done is quote Scripture.
Butski, it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears.
So, I refrain from posting more.
Perhaps, you desire for me to post the foist ones again?

I know you used to post as "extraordinary", based on your hipster language, which you apparently think is light-hearted (it's not). You've posted some Scripture, and a whole lot of commentary on it, along with insults, accusations, and denigration. You think more highly of yourself and your view than you have any warrant to, and you refuse to be corrected on even the smallest thing.

Why don't you comment on my signature?
Last time I looked, it is Scripture.

What I post is for those who are NOT spiritually blind and deaf.
I really don't want to argue with those who are!

Unbelievable! So, because we don't accept your interpretation, we are all blind and deaf? How arrogant...