First off....really thoughtful answer. I gotta give you credit for saying things that I imagine sre difficult for a white male to say just out of the responses you can expect in return.
Interesting question. From my own personal experience the emotions and emotional reactions of feeling shame or guilt are quite different. Feeling shame makes me want to conceal and hide while feeling guilt compels me to be open and talk about it.
I have suspected for awhile that I might be stunted in my emotional development in some way. I can remember feeling guilt when I was much younger but I haven't in a long time. I don't even really feel embarrassed anymore when I do or say something foolish in front other people and get laughed at for it. Most close to these is a sense of personal disgust I feel when I deliberately misrepresent myself, even as a little white lie, for the benefit of avoiding conflict or protecting the feelings of others. I still do it because I think in some situations my discomfort is not worth protecting as much as someone's feelings....but the discomfort is there. If I don't too often....it becomes a resentment for that person and if it grows too strong ..I end up changing my demeanor but I try to be as non-confrontational about it.
My in laws came to visit once...for the first time since I had married and my wife was understandably nervous about it. I was making dinner and tried to be on my best behavior.
Her father had missed the highway exit he needed, tried to call her and began arguing with her even though she had given him the correct directions and gave him the correct directions to fix his error. When he arrived his tone was slightly angry and he was trying to blame her for his mistake.
I love my wife and even though I knew she wanted me to stay quiet...I couldn't. I knew if I did I would hate myself later for it. I took a pretty harsh tone with him, told him it was all his fault and he was wrong to blame my wife, and it was petty and disgraceful for him to do so. I told him if he was going to continue, it would be better for him to leave right then instead of staying for dinner.
To his credit, he did shut up even if he didn't apologize. It was a rather quiet and tense visit after that. I don't think he or my mother in law said another word to me even though they were happy to see their daughter. My wife was happy that I stood up for her later, but I know that in all honesty it was more about how I would feel about myself than whatever was going to make her happy. She would have been happy if I had let it slide so we could have had a less tense visit.
People with white guilt probably find it very easy to talk about what their ancestors of their race did to another. It's therapeutic for them.
I guess that makes sense.
Shame was not a very prevalent emotion when I suffered from white guilt. Why one emotion may more easily become a generational thing and not the other is an interesting question. Evolutionary psychology may someday provide some answers. Guilt compels you to act and shame to hide it away, so perhaps it had some benefit in improving hunter gatherer tribes? It could help spurn social improvement. A fresh set of eyes that are more vulnerable to enact change. Just a wild guess.
I think shame may promote social conformity and I can certainly see why that helps the group from an evolutionary perspective. As an atheist from a very young age I lost a lot of respect for the group and in a way, began to admire those willing to risk the disdain of the group for not conforming. As I've grown older though, I've learned to see more value in conformity and group respect.
Same. From my exprience many people of color seem to be a few decades behind many white people in racial relations. Like they are stuck in the 1950s or something.
I don't think this is entirely their fault either. If no one challenges bad ideas, racist or otherwise, people can rarely see any need to challenge them all on their own. Few people, of any race including black people, seem willing to challenge or confront racism in the black community. Racists always seem to think their racist beliefs are justified .
There's a comedian named Patrice O'Neal who I once heard talking about why he felt he and other black people hated white people (generally speaking of course, he immediately pointed out it's not as if he hated all white people). He attributed it to the way they see the injustice of slavery and the lack of a villian to blame. He felt envious of the Jewish people for having a Hitler and the goofy moustache he had. It's a villain and the blame can die with him. Slavery has no villian....so he thought that was why all the early founding fathers get viewed as similar to the plantation masters. They have no goofy moustache to associate it with, just white skin.
It's a comedian's explanation of course....but he was trying to be open and sincere about it. He knew he was racist, he wasn't ashamed of it, and I can honestly respect that more than a person saying racist things yet denying their racism behind a series of justifications.
I've seen really innocent looking Asian women say horribly racist things about black people out in the open. Usually when they do I cannot help but laugh uncontrollably. They often look at me with a confused look on their face and say something like.. "Hey... what are you laughing about? I am being serious." Lol.
Me too lol...I think when someone knows people see them as harmless they can get away with things we would find abhorrent in others
I think many black people would cool down if they realized race is not a very big deal or even an important identity to the average white person. While I can be sympathetic and it's probably not realistic to expect a black person to not care about race as much as a white person, I think many could have race be less of an identity if they tried.
I've noticed that the less one is attached to their racial identity, less racist they are towards others. I think that the condition of the black community in general, not all of them obviously, has been a struggle for a sense of identity because of being stripped of a culture so long ago. I noticed when I was young that many black people I knew...friend or not...had an idea of "white America" and "black America" as if we both lived in two very different countries. It didn't matter that we had very similar experiences....in their eyes we were not in the same boat, so to speak.
One thing that I loathe about this current culture is that it is forcing many white people to more and more see their own race as an identity. Call it privilege or not but I really like just seeing myself as a "human" instead of as a "white guy". While I can be sympathetic in not expecting a black person to have the same luxury I think many of them could shed some of this black identity if they tried. While not a conservative I am supportive and very understanding for black people who do. I do not think it is healthy for a race to so heavily lean one way or the other. Like the "Walking away from the democratic plantation".. while I can understand some thinking the premise is stupid.. part of me cannot help but see such movements as good things. Individualism should be encouraged for all and I think is an important step in making race less important in society.
I read a lot of sociological studies in college as part of my course work. I remember one that looked at outcomes of black children adopted by white parents and compared them to the outcomes in education to those of black students with black parents in the same schools and roughly the same income levels. I won't mention the results because I think the sample sizes, though they were in the low hundreds, were too small to extrapolate from.
I mention it because there was a few years when white parents weren't allowed to adopt black children....I think in the late 70s. It was because of black advocacy groups angrily complaining that the practice would lead to "cultural genocide" which is a phrase that today we only would associate with white supremacists.
I think it speaks to an idea that some black people have of that "white america" and "black america". I think that some only associate "white America" or in modern parlance "whiteness" as a moral evil, a destructive force, an inherent threat to their wellbeing.
This is, in my opinion, a result of associating the positive aspects of a black identity primarily with the notion of heroic struggle or righteous struggle against oppression. There's no lack of examples of heroic struggle in the history of black people in the US.
I think then that without any visible oppression....which is to say, no laws or policies that create a second class citizen of black people....retaining the positive aspect of that identity (for those who see it that way) requires an enemy to struggle against. It's why the racism must be buried deep in the system somewhere, or in te unconscious mind or biases of white people. It's hidden in this conspiratorial idea of a white privilege that benefits all white people all the time no matter what their circumstances are.
I don't think I can reasonably or morally suggest that the positive sense of identity of black people is something i6could influence or even have a right to influence as a white person. Heroic struggle and righteous struggle are things easy to believe in. Individual achievement and individual responsibility are not as satisfying emotionally I think. They are a harder road to walk in my opinion...and as such, hard to encourage.
Nice. While being empathetic can give you amazing highs and make life very enjoyable it also has many downsides. I suffer from severe social anxiety at times and general panic attacks.
I've always felt bad for those who suffer social anxiety.
I have had experience of black people one day making fun of me for following the law and making comments about how things go down differently in black neighborhoods violence wise and the very next day complain about how unfair it is the black people are viewed as less law abiding and violent than white people. Of course there might be some exaggeration and humor when they talk about the former but from the vibe I get they're often being honest. From what I've seen from the crime stats it seems to be the case.
Values and perceptions are influenced by environment.
Sicilians in history had long given up on respect for governmental authority because of how often Sicily had been invaded and conquered. It's not a surprise how this led to a mistrust of government and eventually a lack of respect for those who acquiesced to its authority.
Again, I'm not saying that this is the same thing as what you're describing and I certainly wouldn't suggest that it is a racial issue....it's a cultural one. Anyone outside a culture looking in will inevitably be wrong about many things. I do think the examination of culture and cultural attitudes, beliefs, prejudices, and the like is beneficial...even if it's ugly for awhile. I don't pretend to have any expertise on black culture, it's subcultures, or the results of such things.
I don't see how anyone does....it's extremely difficult to have such conversations in our nation. We would rather stay quiet out of the idea of politeness or something.
Again, in hopes to avoid the many reports from other posters....I don't attribute any of my opinions to race. I've speculated about some aspects of culture. I don't think it's a monolithic culture either. It's as varied and diverse as any other culture.
No offense was intended if any offense was taken.
