This is Why Homosexuality is Wrong. . .

[GwynApNudd]

Hmm. As a 52-year-old woman who never looks at pornography, I wonder what this makes me. I am a lesbian, and I have been a lesbian my entire life. But I have never had encounters with pornography.

That is a lie. Common sense says so.

One has to wonder exactly what it is that your "common sense" is calling a lie.

Is it that Ohioprof seems too nice and too normal? So she can't be a lesbian? After all "common sense" says that all lesbians are butch dykes.

Or is it that "common sense" says that lesbians are women who want to be men, and of course all men are "into" porn (even if it is only a brief period in their teens)?

Or is it that all homosexuals are "natural liars," an accusation which was also often levelled at blacks during the Jim Crow era?

Grow up!

 

[Phred]

Yup, you're right. That quote adds up to the way I am being unfairly treated here, unfairly treated just for telling the truth, that is.

But you're not telling the truth.

 

[RealityCheck]

Maybe, maybe not. But I am pretty sure He'd be annoyed at how quick many are to throw out the hate card. Believing that homosexuality is wrong , and saying so, is not now, nor will it ever be the same as hating the person.

Believing that Christianity is wrong, and saying so, is not now, nor will it ever be, the same as hating the Christian.

Agree?

 

[chaz345]

Believing that Christianity is wrong, and saying so, is not now, nor will it ever be, the same as hating the Christian.

Agree?

Yes I do.

Now exactly HOW it is said can possibly convey hate, just as it can with homosexuality.

 

[selfinflikted]

Yes I do.

Now exactly HOW it is said can possibly convey hate, just as it can with homosexuality.

Well, faint and fall out.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Same thing can be said about one who instantly jumps to accusations of homophobia or hate.

Well, that's a different thing, but a similar problem.

However, I expressed strong dislike for people who use religion to justify hatred. I never said that anyone in here was doing so. What you implied was that I was accusing everyone who happens to dislike that some people are attracted to other people of the same gender because of religious reasons of hating all homosexuals. But that isn't what I said, and it isn't what I meant.

One could say much the same thing (that they cannot back up or respond to another's post) of people who start accusing other people of calling them homophobics, to be fair. *grin*

 

[RealityCheck]

Yes I do.

Now exactly HOW it is said can possibly convey hate, just as it can with homosexuality.

Which is entirely a matter of subjective interpretation. HOW you say something may mean one thing to you, and something else to another person. You may not think you're expressing hatred, but someone else will see it that way.

 

[Phred]

Which is entirely a matter of subjective interpretation. HOW you say something may mean one thing to you, and something else to another person. You may not think you're expressing hatred, but someone else will see it that way.

Let's say I constantly refer to Christianity as a sinful and deviant lifestyle.

 

[naotmaa]

Maybe, maybe not. But I am pretty sure He'd be annoyed at how quick many are to throw out the hate card. Believing that homosexuality is wrong , and saying so, is not now, nor will it ever be the same as hating the person.

I agree that some people are sometimes too quick to throw out the hate card but in this case I can understand the frustration. However, he is not just saying homosexuality is wrong, he is saying that they are full of lust and that their relationships basically mean nothing. Despite people, including gay people tell him otherwise, he still chooses to believe it. You can understand how this could be considered insulting to some people right?

 

[Ramona]

This is just as unbelievable as ever. I am constantly told "we don't hate the people, but we do hate their sin!" But ultimately, these same people accuse their gay brothers and sisters of being "incapable" of having loving relationships, calling them liars and god-haters, and throwing around words like "pervert" and "sodomite" - things which seem to me to be the antithesis of all that is loving and kind. They are free to claim to "love" the sinner - but I see nothing loving about their words or actions.

Allow me to quote something I'd written in another thread:

A very dear friend of mine, who is Jewish and refers to Jesus as "just another false Moschiach," once told me, "we don't hate the attraction, we just dislike the action." This one sentence sent us spiraling into a thelogical argument up epic proportions. I asked my friend questions. And to him, I'm not just some random debate opponent on a message board with no name and no face. We're accountability partners, we're friends, we love and care for each-other. And so he wasn't afraid to be honest with me.

By the time I got too tired to continue talking and went to bed, he'd told me that he knew it was an irrational belief to hold. Because I was a nontheist at the time, he had started out telling me that I'm not under the same "spiritual slavery" as he is, and I'm not one of "G-d's chosen," therefore he doesn't expect me to support all of "G-d's rules." But the conversation progressed. Eventually he told me that he feels these are, in his words, "idiotic decrees" from "some dude in the sky," and that it troubles him to hold such views when he sees how much pain it causes.

Do you understand that when one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine of our religious persuasions, we see each-other in a totally different light? We stop seeing each-other as nothing more than pixels on a web forum, and we finally begin to see one another as human beings. We are sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, parents, lovers, and friends - and in that regard, we are all the same. And whether one wants to see it or not, we all mean something to someone...regardless of religious or political beliefs.

I firmly believe that we are all capable of loving and being loved. Unfortunately, we all seem to forget this sometimes - I myself am just as guilty of doing so as anyone and everyone else. Still, I cannot help but wonder if we would all continue to be so hostile to one-another if we all just stepped back and listened to one another. And by "listen," I do not mean "wait for the others to stop talking so that I can interject my own opinions." By "listen," I mean "try to understand."

That said, I've never really understood what some people hope to accomplish by condemning, and even denying civil rights to, the LGBT community. Condemnation doesn't win anyone to Christ in the long-term. Reparative therapy fails - eventually - approximately 99.98% of the time. When others are hurt, everybody loses in the end.

 

[selfinflikted]

This is just as unbelievable as ever. I am constantly told "we don't hate the people, but we do hate their sin!" But ultimately, these same people accuse their gay brothers and sisters of being "incapable" of having loving relationships, calling them liars and god-haters, and throwing around words like "pervert" and "sodomite" - things which seem to me to be the antithesis of all that is loving and kind. They are free to claim to "love" the sinner - but I see nothing loving about their words or actions.

Allow me to quote something I'd written in another thread:
Do you understand that when one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine of our religious persuasions, we see each-other in a totally different light? We stop seeing each-other as nothing more than pixels on a web forum, and we finally begin to see one another as human beings. We are sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, parents, lovers, and friends - and in that regard, we are all the same. And whether one wants to see it or not, we all mean something to someone...regardless of religious or political beliefs.

I firmly believe that we are all capable of loving and being loved. Unfortunately, we all seem to forget this sometimes - I myself am just as guilty of doing so as anyone and everyone else. Still, I cannot help but wonder if we would all continue to be so hostile to one-another if we all just stepped back and listened to one another. And by "listen," I do not mean "wait for the others to stop talking so that I can interject my own opinions." By "listen," I mean "try to understand."

That said, I've never really understood what some people hope to accomplish by condemning, and even denying civil rights to, the LGBT community. Condemnation doesn't win anyone to Christ in the long-term. Reparative therapy fails - eventually - approximately 99.98% of the time. When others are hurt, everybody loses in the end.

I <3 U!

 

[RealityCheck]

Let's say I constantly refer to Christianity as a sinful and deviant lifestyle.

Don't forget to toss in that Christianity is based on a lust for blood and has nothing to do with love.

 

[chaz345]

Let's say I constantly refer to Christianity as a sinful and deviant lifestyle.

Well for starters you'd have a hard time with the framework. If you were saying that, then presumably you'd be doing it from a non-Christian postition, right? That being the case the term sinful has no meaningful definition.

But speaking to your actual point, I will,as I'm sure a thousand other people have done, simply point out that there is a difference between the person and their actions and it is entirely possible to completely and totally hate the actions and have an entirely different opinion of the person.

Having said that, I do believe that going around constantly pointing out how wrong the lifestyle is is not how Christ would have done it. He related and served and ministered first, and then pointed out the sin afterward. But even though doing that way(the fist way) is wrong, it still does not necessarily equate to hate of the person.

 

[chaz345]

However, I expressed strong dislike for people who use religion to justify hatred. I never said that anyone in here was doing so. What you implied was that I was accusing everyone who happens to dislike that some people are attracted to other people of the same gender because of religious reasons of hating all homosexuals. But that isn't what I said, and it isn't what I meant.

I see what you mean and appolgize for the misinterpretation. Given the context of the conversation, and the regularity with which the hate card is tossed out, you can understand my mistake?

 

[Phred]

But speaking to your actual point, I will,as I'm sure a thousand other people have done, simply point out that there is a difference between the person and their actions and it is entirely possible to completely and totally hate the actions and have an entirely different opinion of the person.

Having said that, I do believe that going around constantly pointing out how wrong the lifestyle is is not how Christ would have done it. He related and served and ministered first, and then pointed out the sin afterward. But even though doing that way(the fist way) is wrong, it still does not necessarily equate to hate of the person.

No, it does not necessarily equate to hatred of the person. But when, time after time after time the only focus is upon how deviant gays are, how sinful gays are, how marriage must be defended against the attacks by gays, well... I'm sorry but the love for the person and the hatred of the acts blurs. I can't see that a person can be separated from who they are in this case.

I am married. I walk with my wife at the mall. I talk about what I did with my wife on the weekend. To ask a gay person to not do these things so that a Christian can avoid seeing the "acts" of being gay... I'm sorry. That's too much to ask. To suggest this is hatred. It's saying that the gay person's life isn't worth as much as a straight person's life. You may not see this... but I clearly do.

So to claim that the sin can be separated from the person is a nice exercise but that's all it is.

 

[Ramona]

I <3 U!

COMMERE...

I am married. I walk with my wife at the mall. I talk about what I did with my wife on the weekend. To ask a gay person to not do these things so that a Christian can avoid seeing the "acts" of being gay... I'm sorry. That's too much to ask. To suggest this is hatred. It's saying that the gay person's life isn't worth as much as a straight person's life. You may not see this... but I clearly do.

Agreed. You've nailed it right here.

 

[chaz345]

No, it does not necessarily equate to hatred of the person. But when, time after time after time the only focus is upon how deviant gays are, how sinful gays are, how marriage must be defended against the attacks by gays, well... I'm sorry but the love for the person and the hatred of the acts blurs. I can't see that a person can be separated from who they are in this case.

I am married. I walk with my wife at the mall. I talk about what I did with my wife on the weekend. To ask a gay person to not do these things so that a Christian can avoid seeing the "acts" of being gay... I'm sorry. That's too much to ask. To suggest this is hatred. It's saying that the gay person's life isn't worth as much as a straight person's life. You may not see this... but I clearly do.

So to claim that the sin can be separated from the person is a nice exercise but that's all it is.

Ok then using the exact same reasoning, then it is fine to start accusing you and most of the other atheists here of hating Christians based on the daily barrage of insulting and demeaning comments, right? And in that case the remarks are directed at the person themself probably more often than the belief or actions. Or is it really possible for you to separate your disdain for the belief system from the person?

 

[RealityCheck]

Ok then using the exact same reasoning, then it is fine to start accusing you and most of the other atheists here of hating Christians based on the daily barrage of insulting and demeaning comments, right?

Whether ir's okay or not, it happens all the time.

And in that case the remarks are directed at the person themself probably more often than the belief or actions. Or is it really possible for you to separate your disdain for the belief system from the person?

You're the one that says Christians can do this with gays - are you now suggesting it isn't possible?

 

[Phred]

Ok then using the exact same reasoning, then it is fine to start accusing you and most of the other atheists here of hating Christians based on the daily barrage of insulting and demeaning comments, right? And in that case the remarks are directed at the person themself probably more often than the belief or actions. Or is it really possible for you to separate your disdain for the belief system from the person?

If I do it you may accuse me all you wish. But please notice a difference between specific people and all Christians. There's also a huge difference between what one nutflake believes and what all people of a specific label believe.

Here's the overriding issue. You get three or four nutflakes who start in on this madness. "Gays are evil" they shout. Now, most Christians don't know any gays, don't care about gays and wouldn't know a gay person if one hit them on the head. So they associate with what they do know. "Is that guy a Christian?" "Ok, fine, gays are evil. Can we get back to bingo now?" What they don't realize is that it's in their best interest to ensure that all people, regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation are treated fairly. It's in all our best interest. Or what happens when it's our quirk that becomes accepted to discriminate against?

 

[chaz345]

Whether ir's okay or not, it happens all the time.

Really?

Please post examples, preferablely from the E&M section since that's about the only place I go, of accusations that atheists hate Christians.

You're the one that says Christians can do this with gays - are you now suggesting it isn't possible?

You miss my point. Phred said it isn't possible other than in an exercise sense and I was simply saying that it is isn't possible for Christians that it isn't possible for him and other atheists either.