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Man is born dead to God, first thing that needs to happen is for man to be raised from being dead, from having no life in him. Until thaat happens their can be no obedience to God.First I will summarize the view of salvation:
I will summarize the view of God’s plan for man:
- Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature
- God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him
- Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance
- If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness
- God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin
- God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin
- God who works all things together for good, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.
- Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.
Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature
It is true that man is at least influenced by evil. As Paul mentioned, man can desire to do good, but his flesh wars against that desire.
Rom 7:19-23 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him
God sent His son into the world to give light to man, He gives this light to all men.
John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
We can become sons if we walk in the light He gives.
John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."
Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38
This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.
Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance
Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.
John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness
Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin
James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin
Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
God who works all things together for God, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.
God sets boundaries on our lives, restrictions, so we can find Him.
Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
God does not have perfect knowledge of our every choice, but plans around our choices.
Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
The following is a case study to show this. In the Psalms King David wrote:
Psalms 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.
So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:
Jerimiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.
So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.
King David, as an example, sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.
2 Samuel 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."
So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.
So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.
Jerimiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.
Jerimiah 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.
The Early Church also preached free will of man, showing that man was not set to a fixed destiny.
Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
So you don't believe that the early church believed the Gospel of God's Grace?The early church was not Calvinist. That's all I'm going to say.
The early church did not believe in predestination and it DID believe in free will.So you don't believe that the early church believed the Gospel of God's Grace?
How is man raised from being dead?Man is born dead to God, first thing that needs to happen is for man to be raised from being dead, from having no life in him. Until thaat happens their can be no obedience to God.
So therefore you confirm the early church didnt believe the Gospel of Gods grace. So then its nothing I can show you if God hasn't shown you.The early church did not believe in predestination and it DID believe in free will.
Could you show the opposite since it is You that is stating the positive...
How is man raised from being dead?
By Gods power. You didnt know that ?How is man raised from being dead?
Predestination =/= God's grace.So therefore you confirm the early church didnt believe the Gospel of Gods grace. So then its nothing I can show you if God hasn't shown you.
I'm through speaking to the other poster.Predestination =/= God's grace.
Yeah lately I've just been realizing how doctrinally incorrect Calvinism really is.I'm through speaking to the other poster.
He's rather silly in his replies and I prefer serious conversation.
Also, he seems UNABLE to give any biblical support for his statements.
This is a bad sign and perhaps he really doesn't understand calvinism.
Which is the early church you refer to —the church during Paul's time, or after the canon was complete? I doubt very much that the church after the canon was written did not believe in predestination, but I KNOW Paul did. I would have to assume, since the early church during Paul's time was taught by Paul (and others that believed in predestination), that it did believe in predestination.The early church did not believe in predestination and it DID believe in free will.
Could you show the opposite since it is You that is stating the positive...
If you look back through my post you will see many quotes from the early church that back free will. They are from the earliest Church Fathers. I quote two such passages below:Which is the early church you refer to —the church during Paul's time, or after the canon was complete? I doubt very much that the church after the canon was written did not believe in predestination, but I KNOW Paul did. I would have to assume, since the early church during Paul's time was taught by Paul (and others that believed in predestination), that it did believe in predestination.
But since you made the positive statement that the early church believed in freewill, it is incumbent on your to back it up, first by defining what you mean by 'early church', then by defining what you mean by 'free will', then by showing that the early church you defined believed in free will as you defined. I'm guessing all you will be able to show is choice, just as Arminians have done when telling us the Bible teaches free will.
Justin Martyr (110-165AD) - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.
3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
They don't have Romans 9.Yeah lately I've just been realizing how doctrinally incorrect Calvinism really is.
They sure do have Romans 9 though, I'll give them that!
Read post 32.Which is the early church you refer to —the church during Paul's time, or after the canon was complete? I doubt very much that the church after the canon was written did not believe in predestination, but I KNOW Paul did. I would have to assume, since the early church during Paul's time was taught by Paul (and others that believed in predestination), that it did believe in predestination.
But since you made the positive statement that the early church believed in freewill, it is incumbent on your to back it up, first by defining what you mean by 'early church', then by defining what you mean by 'free will', then by showing that the early church you defined believed in free will as you defined. I'm guessing all you will be able to show is choice, just as Arminians have done when telling us the Bible teaches free will.
What —do you operate by two handles? I wrote to answer @GodsGrace101If you look back through my post you will see many quotes from the early church that back free will. They are from the earliest Church Fathers. I quote two such passages below:
And in the Bible too, man freely chooses to accept or reject, to submit or to rebel. Where have I said otherwise? And where does this deny the doctrine of Predestination?If you look back through my post you will see many quotes from the early church that back free will. They are from the earliest Church Fathers. I quote two such passages below:
Irenaeus in his Against Heresies (120-202AD) - Book 4 Ch 35-38shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers. It is said of his book "The work of Irenaeus Against Heresies is one of the most precious remains of early Christian antiquity. It is devoted, on the one hand, to an account and refutation of those multiform Gnostic heresies which prevailed in the latter half of the second century; and, on the other hand, to an exposition and defence of the Catholic faith."
Anyhow, is this the early church that @GodsGrace101 was referring to? If it is, is it definitive of the 'early church'? I ask you, since you have undertaken to answer for him. Are you saying that if this is definitive of the early church, that the 'early church' had not already strayed from Paul's teachings? Do you have some evidence for that, other than to show that they agree with you?If you look back through my post you will see many quotes from the early church that back free will. They are from the earliest Church Fathers. I quote two such passages below:
Irenaeus in his Against Heresies (120-202AD) - Book 4 Ch 35-38shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers. It is said of his book "The work of Irenaeus Against Heresies is one of the most precious remains of early Christian antiquity. It is devoted, on the one hand, to an account and refutation of those multiform Gnostic heresies which prevailed in the latter half of the second century; and, on the other hand, to an exposition and defence of the Catholic faith."
If you read carefully you will see they believed in the free will of man to "choose salvation", or "reject it". The quote from Justin Martyr goes a step more and actually attacks predestination note:And in the Bible too, man freely chooses to accept or reject, to submit or to rebel. Where have I said otherwise? And where does this deny the doctrine of Predestination?
Justin Martyr (110-165AD) - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain.
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be.
He states if man were created for a destructive end, man would not be worthy of damnation, for he was only doing what God made him do.But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
Yes, I know he does. Not sure why you are telling me this.If you read carefully you will see they believed in the free will of man to "choose salvation", or "reject it". The quote from Justin Martyr goes a step more and actually attacks predestination note:
Divine choice is not fate. Just thought I'd mention that.He states that suppose someone tells you the church believes that what happens in life happens by divine choice/fate is called into being by necessity, because it was foretold as known beforehand, this he explains.
And predestination isn't fatalism either.He furthermore states that if fatalism/predestination were true man could not be judged, so he states free will is alive and well.
I don't think I said that Justin et al did not 'fight predestination'. My question is whether these represent "The Early Church", or are they just some who thought what they thought. Paul certainly didn't deny predestination.He states if man were created for a destructive end, man would not be worthy of damnation, for he was only doing what God made him do.
Do you see how this is all fighting predestination?
It really depends on what Paul meant by being predestined. Other scripture shows us that Jesus so loved the world that he calls all men to be saved. Foreknowledge, and predestination, need not mean God marked out, an elect group before creation. But rather God predestined, marked out those he foreknew would act within the parameters he had predestined. In a sense these are "elect", "selected", but according to God's nature, not God's pre-choosing.I don't think I said that Justin et al did not 'fight predestination'. My question is whether these represent "The Early Church", or are they just some who thought what they thought. Paul certainly didn't deny predestination.
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