This generation

[rwb]

absolutely agree. Josephus paints all the above parties as responsible.

This is what I see as the real problem for Preterists. Their doctrine is dependent upon commentary from men, and Josephus, the unbelieving Jewish historian. Our doctrine MUST be informed by the Word of God, or it simply remains the opinions of man. Then the Preterists seeks to find support from Scripture by pulling passages and verses from their context.

 

[rwb]

Like the other numbered points, the Preterist assumes the AOD is found only in the first century AD. But when we seek truth from the whole of Scripture we wonder if the Preterist even knows what the AOD is. And if they do know, how can they limit the abomination spoken of by Daniel to the first century? Remember the AOD marks the beginning of "great tribulation" the church will experience upon this earth as she seeks to build the kingdom of God through the Gospel preached in the power of the Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

This is what I see as the real problem for Preterists. Their doctrine is dependent upon commentary from men, and Josephus, the unbelieving Jewish historian. Our doctrine MUST be informed by the Word of God, or it simply remains the opinions of man. Then the Preterists seeks to find support from Scripture by pulling passages and verses from their context.

So how will you know when future prophecy is fulfilled? Will God reopen the canon?

 

[Hammster]

Like the other numbered points, the Preterist assumes the AOD is found only in the first century AD. But when we seek truth from the whole of Scripture we wonder if the Preterist even knows what the AOD is. And if they do know, how can they limit the abomination spoken of by Daniel to the first century? Remember the AOD marks the beginning of "great tribulation" the church will experience upon this earth as she seeks to build the kingdom of God through the Gospel preached in the power of the Spirit.

That’s not true. It happened in the first century. We can trust that is true since Jesus said it would happen with 40 years of that OD.

 

[rwb]

So how will you know when future prophecy is fulfilled? Will God reopen the canon?

Prophesy concerning Christ has been fulfilled when Christ said from the cross, "it is finished". All that He was ordained to accomplish in the flesh is finished. Since the cross and resurrection all that is prophesied shall come to pass during this Messianic age/era will be finished when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ, and "time shall be no more."

 

[rwb]

That’s not true. It happened in the first century. We can trust that is true since Jesus said it would happen with 40 years of that OD.

However, it did not end in the first century!

 

[Hammster]

Prophesy concerning Christ has been fulfilled when Christ said from the cross, "it is finished". All that He was ordained to accomplish in the flesh is finished. Since the cross and resurrection all that is prophesied shall come to pass during this Messianic age/era will be finished when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ, and "time shall be no more."

That doesn’t answer the question. How will you know that it’s happening? Will the canon be reopened?

 

[Hammster]

However, it did not end in the first century!

What is “it”?

 

[rwb]

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is an example of how the Preterists uses Scripture from the Old Testament to make the New Testament prophesy fit their doctrine. They use verses like:

Isaiah 13:9-10 (KJV) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

They say, "see, even the prophets of Old used this language to describe the day of the Lord coming, so clearly the Lord came in the first century 70 AD." But that is an example of using unclear passages from the Old to try to understand the clear passages from the New to understand. When we use the new to bring to clarity the old, we quickly understand that both the OT prophets and Christ are speaking of the same day of the Lord coming. The Old Testament prophets writing of the Day of the Lord being the age/era when the Messiah would come to fulfill all that is prophesied, and Christ speaking of the same time period but with the Day of the Lord coming on the last day of this age/era.

 

[rwb]

What is “it”?

The Day of the Lord that was prophesied would come. We have been in the Day of the Lord since the advent of Christ' first coming. And that day/age/era will not end until the last day of the Lord, when the last trumpet sounds and time will be no more.

The Olivet Discourse shows the disciples of Christ what they can expect during this Day of the Lord, and how it will not end until the Lord returns in glory very visibly.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is an example of how the Preterists uses Scripture from the Old Testament to make the New Testament prophesy fit their doctrine. They use verses like:

Isaiah 13:9-10 (KJV) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

They say, "see, even the prophets of Old used this language to describe the day of the Lord coming, so clearly the Lord came in the first century AD." But that is an example of using unclear passages from the Old to try to understand the clear passages from the New to understand. When we use the new to bring to clarity the old, we quickly understand that both the OT prophets and Christ are speaking of the same day of the Lord coming. The Old Testament prophets writing of the Day of the Lord being the age/era when the Messiah would come to fulfill all that is prophesied, and Christ speaking of the same time period but with the Day of the Lord coming on the last day of this age/era.

Those aren’t unclear passages. But what is really clear is that Jesus said those things v would happen within that generation. And we know that they did.

 

[Hammster]

The Day of the Lord that was prophesied would come. We have been in the Day of the Lord since the advent of Christ' first coming. And that day/age/era will not end until the last day of the Lord, when the last trumpet sounds and time will be no more.

The Olivet Discourse shows the disciples of Christ what they can expect during this Day of the Lord, and how it will not end until the Lord returns in glory very visibly.

No, He showed what would happen within 40 years.

 

[rwb]

Those aren’t unclear passages. But what is really clear is that Jesus said those things v would happen within that generation. And we know that they did.

They are unclear in light of the new. How can you read the passages from the new that speak of the DAY when Christ will come again, and then say the Old Testament passages describing this day of the Lord's coming are clear??? Your doctrine clearly causes the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament prophesy to contradict each other. How do you reconcile your doctrine telling us the Lord returned in 70 AD with the following prophesy from the letter to Peter?

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I have no problem reconciling the Old and the New when I realize the OT prophets foretell an age/era, calling it the Day of the Lord.

 

[rwb]

No, He showed what would happen within 40 years.

No, sorry, that is your doctrine attempting to force an opinion upon the Scripture that cannot be biblically proven.

 

[DavidPT]

[Staff Edit]

Logic says that both positions can't be correct. At least one of those positions has to be incorrect. Either the position that insists this generation has already passed, or the position that insists it is yet to pass away.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus makes it unmistakably clear here, therefore, not one single person has an excuse that Jesus wasn't being crystal clear here, therefore, it is not debatable as to what He meant here. What did He say here? He said---till all be fulfilled---therefore, in the meantime this generation will not pass away. That means everything recorded in these accounts, prior to Him having said that, that all of it has to be fulfilled before this generation passes away.

Since it is Preterists insisting this generation has passed away, it is therefore them that need to prove what they allege.

Keep in mind, to be fulfilled means once it has been fulfilled it doesn't continue to be fulfilled nor is it fulfilled in future generations as well, it means it has been fulfilled, period. An example. Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed in 70 AD. That has been fulfilled, period. Thus nothing that continues to be fulfilled nor something that is fulfilled in future generations.

Let's label these A) B) in regards to fulfilled.

A) An example. Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed in 70 AD.. That has been fulfilled, period. Thus can't fit an example like B) below.

B) An example. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations. It continues to be fulfilled. Therefore, it continues to be fulfilled in future generations. Therefore, it can't at the same time be both fulfilled before this generation passes away then continue to be fulfilled after it passes away, and then insist it has been fulfilled before this generation passes away. It has to be one or the other since fulfilled means it is no longer being fulfilled once it has been fulfilled. And Jesus plainly said all must be fulfilled before this generation passes away.

In order for one's interpretation to agree with what Jesus said in Luke 21:32, everything Jesus said prior to saying that, it must fit the definition of A) not B). Otherwise, this means Jesus lied to us if this generation passed away before everything He said fits with an example like A) rather than an example like B).

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


In regards to this generation passing away, does this fit the definition of an example like A) or the definition of an example like B), meaning once this generation has passed away? IOW, is anything in Luke 21:8 still true after this generation passes away? Or is it only true before this generation passes away? The former fits an example like B). The latter fits an example like A).

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

In regards to this generation passing away, does this fit the definition of an example like A) or the definition of an example like B), meaning once this generation has passed away? IOW, is 21:17 still true after this generation passes away? Or is it only true before this generation passes away? The former fits an example like B). The latter fits an example like A).

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In regards to this---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled---does this fit the definition of an example like A) or the definition of an example like B), meaning once this generation has passed away? IOW, is that part still being fulfilled after this generation passes away? Or is it only true before this generation passes away, meaning the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled before this generation passes away? The former fits an example like B). The latter fits an example like A).

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

In regards to this generation passing away, does this fit the definition of an example like A) or the definition of an example like B), meaning once this generation has passed away? IOW, is Matthew 24:7 still true after this generation passes away? Or is it only true before this generation passes away? The former fits an example like B). The latter fits an example like A).

This should be enough to make the point. In order for Preterists to be correct about Luke 21:32, none of these verses above can fit an example like B), they all must fit an example like A).

 

[Hammster]

They are unclear in light of the new. How can you read the passages from the new that speak of the DAY when Christ will come again, and then say the Old Testament passages describing this day of the Lord's coming are clear??? Your doctrine clearly causes the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament prophesy to contradict each other. How do you reconcile your doctrine telling us the Lord returned in 70 AD with the following prophesy from the letter to Peter?

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I have no problem reconciling the Old and the New when I realize the OT prophets foretell an age/era, calling it the Day of the Lord.

They don’t contradict because they talk about different things in a lot of cases. There’s been more than one day of the Lord.

 

[Hammster]

No, sorry, that is your doctrine attempting to force an opinion upon the Scripture that cannot be biblically proven.

It’s not forcing anything. It’s right there in unambiguous language. Those things would happen in that generation. That’s how you need to understand the passage.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It’s not forcing anything. It’s right there in unambiguous language. Those things would happen in that generation. That’s how you need to understand the passage.

Many fail to see the two questions the disciples asked and the two events Jesus described - one past, the other future in Matthew 24. I have noticed, Preterists can only go toe-to-toe with Premils, they cannot do it with fellow Amils. Their reasoning quickly falls apart. The reasoning being: other Amils believe in supporting Scripture with Scripture. This is what forbids Preterism.

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “Master, but when shall these things be?”
2. “and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the Second Coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It’s not forcing anything. It’s right there in unambiguous language. Those things would happen in that generation. That’s how you need to understand the passage.

Context proves that the phrase “this generation” relates to those alive before Christ’s one final future climactic coming. It has nothing to do with first century events or AD70. Jesus was talking about events preceding His climactic future coming at the end of this age.

 

[DavidPT]

It’s not forcing anything. It’s right there in unambiguous language. Those things would happen in that generation. That’s how you need to understand the passage.

Why would you want to interpret this in such a manner that it has Jesus contradicting Himself? Your argument is, since He said 'this generation' that undeniably proves He could only be meaning the generation they were currently living in at the time since that is what He meant in regard to 'this generation' in other parts of the gospel accounts outside of the OD.

Except this is not taking into account, that in the OD, Jesus placed conditions on this, that being, that all must be fulfilled before this generation passes away. What part of 'all' are some of you not comprehending? Granted, in some contexts 'all' doesn't always literally mean 'all'. But in some contexts it apparently does, such as this one involving this generation not passing away, till all be fulfilled. Why would He say 'all' if He wasn't actually meaning that?

Was He meaning the following instead? Verily I say unto you, This generation shall pass away before all is fulfilled. That's basically what Pretersists have Jesus saying here, except that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said this generation shall pass away when all is fulfilled.

This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled---equals this---This generation shall pass away when all is fulfilled---not this instead---This generation shall pass away before all is fulfilled.