This generation

[Hammster]

LOL. All you've done is shown how many Jews were called and few chosen, but that doesn't address the fact that it talks about Gentiles being called in the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 as well. Why are you seemingly just ignoring the fact that it talks about the Gentiles also being called and then interpreting Matthew 22:14 accordingly?

I addressed your objection. You’ve refused to actually address my argument. So be it.

 

[Hammster]

You explained why you think it is symbolic. I keep reading that many just do not want it to be literal. You all don't have to explain that. It seems pretty loud and clear.

What you need to do is to understand how loud and clear it would be to an audience steeped in the OT. The whole letter is steeped in the OT. They would have to throw that all out to think that this one number was literal.

 

[claninja]

I have no idea of what your point is here. Can you elaborate? The parable differentiated between God the Father and the Son. The vineyard owner represents God the Father and it says the vineyard owner would destroy the tenants, not the vineyard owner's son.

Are you non trinitarian? When the vineyard owners son “died”, he rose again and was given all authority in heaven and on earth. Christ and the father are one. Christ is the vineyard owner. God coming in wrath to destroy the wicked tenants = Christ coming on the clouds in judgement upon Israel.

why was Jesus accused of blasphemy when he said they would see him coming in the clouds?

 

[claninja]

Yeah, I get it. Your understanding of "this generation" is the basis for your understanding of everything. Even when that results in contradicting what other scripture says about the coming of the Son of man, the gathering of the elect and the end of the age.

It’s only contradicting of your presupposition.

“Genea”, outside of Matthew 24, in the NT and LXX is always used to refer to contemporaries.

Did the disciples generation experience persecution, wars, famine, earthquakes, lawlessness, those falling away from the church, false messiahs, the gospel going to the known world, the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, Jesus coming on the clouds, the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast? The answer is easily yes.

Is your reference for “throughout all time” from scoffield?

Uh huh. Okay. I'm never going to fall for your supposed Greek expert act.

sure, if I’m completely wrong about the perfect indicative active tense not equaling “continual”, then just prove me wrong. It should be very easy for you then to post evidence that the perfect indicative active means a “continual” action.

(but since you haven’t been able to do that, I’m guessing the only defense you have is a weak personal jab instead of addressing my point)

How exactly did angels gather the elect in 70 AD then?

see parable of wedding feast in Matthew 22, where the servants were sent out to gather the good and bad into the wedding feast following Israel’s destruction.

Paul was talking about something that would occur just before Christ's return and our being gathered to Him, which is an event that he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as well. And 1 Thess 4:14-17 has not yet occurred.

this doesn’t address James 5:8-9 alluding to matthew 24:33.

LOL. No, I haven't. You can keep claiming that all you want, but you are not the ultimate authority on Greek like you think you are.

This is a personal jab, not a counter to my argument.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Did He not imply that heaven and earth would pass away when this generation passed away? Or do you prefer to not allow the surrounding verses to help you in interpreting any given verse?

Bingo.

 

[claninja]

I challenge you to show me even one Bible commentator or one ECF who interprets (or interpreted) Matthew 22:14 the way you do.

interesting. I thought you didn’t care about commentaries.

 

[Guojing]

It seems to me that to conclude that Matthew 22:14 is only in reference to Jews being called requires you to ignore or disregard the fact that Jesus had just talked about Gentiles being called as well. The context of the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 is in regards to both Jews and Gentiles being called, so why would that not be the case for Matthew 22:14 as well?

To be fair, there is actually nothing in Matthew 22:1-13 that indicated gentiles are being called as well, you are inserting that group into the passage.

 

[rwb]

There is no contradiction. It is indeed "a long time past Satan's 'short time'". Satan's "short time" of being released came after the thousand years was over and done. According to John, that millennium ENDED with the "First resurrection", which was of "Christ the FIRST-fruits" and those Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised that same day in AD 33. THAT RESURRECTION DAY in AD 33 was when the millennium ENDED. It had been a literal thousand years of a physical, stationary temple system authorized by God's design, when Satan's deception of the nations was bound. But it gave way for the superior, SPIRITUAL temple not made with hands, which was built on the foundation stone of "Christ the chief cornerstone" - with us believers as "living stones" built on top of that sure foundation.

Again, you are not carefully reading the text. Where in Rev 12 does it say Satan is "being released"? It tells us Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth. How is that being released from a pit?

John is NOT saying the first resurrection ENDS the thousand years. He is in FACT saying the first resurrection is within the thousand years, when Satan is bound. The first resurrection, as it has been stated many times, is the resurrection of Christ, Who is the first resurrection, or first begotten of the dead. It is only by partaking of the first resurrection of Christ that any one is assured the second death will have no power over them.

There is no difference between Satan's "short time" and Satan's "little season". Various translations use both terms alternately in these texts.

I notice you cite no biblical proof for what you allege here. It really matters little how various translations use the short time, and little season. What matters is what can be proven through the Scripture.

God defined just how much time a "LONG season" lasted back in Joshua 24:7: "...and ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG season" (of 40 years wilderness wanderings for Israel). If a "LONG season" is considered in scripture to consist of 40 years, then a "LITTLE season" of Satan being loosed would comparatively last less than 40 years, wouldn't it? That is the "short time" or "little season" which John in Revelation 12:12 said had already commenced while he was writing Revelation. So it would be less than 40 years after John wrote Revelation when Satan would be destroyed. This agrees with Romans 16:20, (written around AD 60) which promised the Roman believers that God would crush Satan under their feet "shortly".

A long season is not a short time or a little season. Guessing what a little season might be serves no useful purpose in proving biblical truth. How is Satan bruised under the feet of believers? Paul is not speaking of the final victory when Christ comes again, he is speaking believers, through the power of the Spirit being able to defeat the Devil in life.

Mark 16:15-18 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Luke 10:18-19 (KJV) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Romans 16:20 (KJV) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The proof for Satan's first-century destruction is present in scripture, but most people would rather keep the idea of Satan still in existence, to act as a scapegoat for which they can blame the evil taking place in this world. Any evil in this world since AD 70 is solely the responsibility of sinful mankind alone, since that year was the time when God slew that dragon - that crooked serpent - and got rid of the members of the entire Satanic realm.

Satan will not be destroyed until he is cast into the LOF. Satan is bound as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth through the power of the Spirit. Satan's binding only prevents him from keeping the nations of the world in bondage to death and sin. His binding does not prevent Satan from persecuting the church as she proclaims the Gospel. His binding is only to prevent Satan from holding the Gentile nations in fear of sin and death, and preventing them from understanding the Word as it is proclaimed.

 

[rwb]

double posted, deleted

 

[sovereigngrace]

I addressed your objection. You’ve refused to actually address my argument. So be it.

No you did not. You have sidestepped several scriptural counter-arguments on this thread. Scripture is all that matters.

 

[Hammster]

No you did not. You have been sidestepped several scriptural counter-arguments on this thread. Scripture is all that matters.

They have been addressed. Unless you respond to my post, I’m finished with this part of the discussion.

 

[keras]

To be fair, there is actually nothing in Matthew 22:1-13 that indicated gentiles are being called as well, you are inserting that group into the passage.

Matthew 15:23 I was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel....
The descendants of the 10 Northern tribes, scattered among the nations, people the Jews called 'Gentiles', are the ones called and are the ones who have accepted the Salvation Jesus offered.
We Christians are the peoples who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 15:23 I was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel....
The descendants of the 10 Northern tribes, scattered among the nations, people the Jews called 'Gentiles', are the ones called and are the ones who have accepted the Salvation Jesus offered.
We Christians are the peoples who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Are you addressing my point?

 

[claninja]

This verse indicates that one's redemption draweth nigh when these things begin to come to pass, and that it has to be meaning the day of redemption as is recorded in the verse below. How can you have something drawing nigh, that it is beginning to do that 2000 years ago, but that the day of redemption is still in the future, that that day has not even arrived yet? This means per your interpretation that one's redemption that draweth nigh, that this nigh is meaning at least 2000 years in length. I thought Preterists argued, for example, if something is drawing nigh, it means it is soon to come to pass, like real soon. Something that is drawing nigh 2000 years ago and then it finally coming to pass some 2000 years later, hardly sounds like it is describing something soon to come to pass, like real soon.

Ellicot’s commentary on Luke 21:28
“In its primary meaning here it points to the complete deliverance of the disciples from Jewish persecutions in Palestine that followed on the destruction of Jerusalem. The Church of Christ was then delivered from what had been its most formidable danger.”

Barnes notes on the Bible (luke 21:28)
“It shall be fully established when the Jewish policy shall come to an end; when the temple shall be destroyed, and the Jews scattered abroad. Then the power of the Jews shall be at an end; they shall no longer be able to persecute you, and you shall be completely delivered from all these trials and calamities in Judea.”

Gills exposition (luke 21:28).
“for your redemption draweth nigh; not the redemption of their souls from sin, Satan, the law, the world, death, and hell; for that was to be obtained, and was obtained, before any of these signs took place; nor the redemption of their bodies at the last day, in the resurrection, called the day of redemption; for this respects something that was to be, in the present age and generation; see Luke 21:32 but the deliverance of the apostles and other Christians, from the persecutions of the Jews, which were very violent, and held till these times, and then they were freed from them: or by redemption is meant, the Redeemer, the son of man, who shall now come in power and glory, to destroy the Jews, and deliver his people; and so the Ethiopic version renders it, "for he draws nigh who shall save you".”

 

[claninja]

BTW, I know how things basically work, which may or may not apply to you in this case since I don't recall whether you were initially a futurist or not. Since some Preterists were initially futurists then eventually switched to Preterism, therefore, there is no turning back once one has done that. But if there is such a thing as having been right to begin with though, then I don't see why anyone would need to think there is no turning back once one has switched from one view to another.

part 1:

1.) Did false prophets/messiahs arise during the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? Yes
Matthew 24:5, 11 many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

Acts 13:16 they traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,

“A false prophet782 was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.” -Josephus

325AD Eusebius (Regarding Simon, See Acts 8) "After the Lord was taken up into heaven the demons put forth a number of men who claimed to be gods. These not only escape being persecuted by you, but were actually the objects of worship - for example Simon, a Samaritan from the village called Gittho, who in Claudius Caesar's time, thanks to the art of the demons who possessed him, worked wonders of magic, and in your imperial city of Rome was regarded as a god, and like a god was honoured by you with a statue in the River Tiber between the two bridges. It bears this inscription in Latin, SIMONI DEO SANCTO. Almost all Samaritans, and a few from other nations too, ackowledge him as their principle god, and worship him." (p. 86)

325AD Eusebius (Regarding Theudas see Acts 5:36) "When Fadus was procurator of Judea, an imposter called Theudas persuaded a vast crowd to take their belongings and follow him to the River Jordan; for he claimed to be a prophet, and promised to divide the river by his command and provide them with an easy crossing. A great many people were deceived by this talk. Fadus however did not allow them to enjoy their folly, but sent a troop of calvary against them. These attacked them without warning, killed many, and took many alive, capturing Theudas himself, whose head they cut off and conveyed to Jerusalem." (pp.84-85)

325AD Eusebius (Regarding the Egyptian of Acts 21:38) "A greater blow than this was inflicted on the Jews by the Egyptian false prophet. Arriving in the country this man, a fraud who posed as a seer, collected about 30,000 dupes, led them round by the wild country to the Mount of Olives, and from there was ready to force an entry into Jerusalem, overwhelm the Roman garrison, and seize supreme power, with his fellow-raiders as bodyguards. But Felix anticipated his attempt by meeting him with the Roman heavy infantry, the whole population rallying to the defense, so that when the clash occurred the Egyptian fled with a handful of men and most of his followers were killed or captured." (pp. 96-97) ... "These works, that were done by the robbers, filled the city with all sorts of impiety. And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them. Moreover, there came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them. (Book XX, Chapter VIII, Section 6)

2.) did wars and rumors of wars occur during the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES

Matthew 24:6-7a You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

-Roman conquest of britain
-Roman-Parthian war
-Boudica’s uprising
-Roman civil war

3.) did famines and earth quakes occur in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES

Matthew 24:7a-8 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Acts 11:27-28 Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius).

Historians record 5 earthquakes: Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, Campania 62AD

4.) were the disciples persecuted in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES, just read through the book of Acts.

matthew 24:9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

5.) did people fall away from the church in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES, that is how they knew it was the last hour

matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another.

1 john 2:18-19 18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

6.) was lawlessness at work in the first century? YES

Matthew 24:12 Because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of most will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:7a 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

7.) was the gospel preached over all the world? YES

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

romans 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

it is clear that all these events occurred during the disciples generation, in the first century.

 

[rwb]

We are redeemed by the blood of Christ. So redemption for the elect of God at that time was drawing near. But redemption is not only of our bodily redemption that Christ is speaking of in Lk. 21:28. We have been redeemed, we are being redeemed, and we will be redeemed when we live and believe in Christ. Having been redeemed by the blood of Christ, when we believe we are sealed with His Spirit, assuring the redemption of our body also when our Lord returns.

Luke 1:68-75 (KJV) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Galatians 3:13-14 (KJV) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So as Christ was about to finish the works the Father ordained of Him in the flesh, by giving His life on the cross, and resurrecting from the dead, we can boldly declare our redemption, as Christ spoke these words, was indeed drawing near, and since the cross by the power of His Spirit in us we are assured our body too will be redeemed at His coming again on the last day.

 

[claninja]

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound(phone) of a trumpet(salpigx), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This is what these 2 accounts record. Matthew 24 records that it involves a great sound of a trumpet. Are there any passages outside of the gospel accounts that involve both a coming and a trumpet? There is the following below that does, but you likely chalk that up as a coincidence, thus no connection.

Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice(phone) of the archangel, and with the trump(salpigx) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 per the context involving the coming of the Son of man, it records this---then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh, rather than what Matthew 24:31 records, yet it is obviously involving what Matthew 24:31 is involving.

This verse indicates that one's redemption draweth nigh when these things begin to come to pass, and that it has to be meaning the day of redemption as is recorded in the verse below. How can you have something drawing nigh, that it is beginning to do that 2000 years ago, but that the day of redemption is still in the future, that that day has not even arrived yet? This means per your interpretation that one's redemption that draweth nigh, that this nigh is meaning at least 2000 years in length. I thought Preterists argued, for example, if something is drawing nigh, it means it is soon to come to pass, like real soon. Something that is drawing nigh 2000 years ago and then it finally coming to pass some 2000 years later, hardly sounds like it is describing something soon to come to pass, like real soon.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



BTW, I know how things basically work, which may or may not apply to you in this case since I don't recall whether you were initially a futurist or not. Since some Preterists were initially futurists then eventually switched to Preterism, therefore, there is no turning back once one has done that. But if there is such a thing as having been right to begin with though, then I don't see why anyone would need to think there is no turning back once one has switched from one view to another.

part 2:

1.) did the “AOD” occur during the first century?

Depends on the presupposition, and what is meant by the “AOD”? In keeping with the actual definition and use of “this generation” , I believe it does refer to Jesus’ contemporaries. Additionally, the parallel passage from Luke tells what the AOD is: armies surrounding Jerusalem.

2.) did the sun and moon stop giving light, and did the stars fall from heaven in the first century? Did the heavens and earth pass away in the first century?

depends on the presupposition. Is this to be understood as literal? If yes, then this did not occur in the first century. However, if this is to be understood metaphorically, then the argument can be made that this did occur in the first century, and that “genea” can continue to mean it’s actual definition and remain consistent with with its biblical use. Such language as being metaphorical is consistent with The OT. See below commentaries for evidence:

Matthew henry (isaiah 13:10)
“The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments.”

Barnes (isaiah 13:10)
“For the stars of heaven - This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon BabylonThe meaning of the figure evidently is, that those calamities would be such as would be appropriately denoted by the sudden extinguishment of the stars, the sun, and the moon. As nothing would tend more to anarchy, distress, and ruin, than thus to have all the lights of heaven suddenly and forever quenched, this was an apt and forcible representation of the awful calamities that were coming upon the people. Darkness and night, in the Scriptures, are often the emblem of calamity and distress (see the note at Matthew 24:29). The revolutions and destructions of kingdoms and nations are often represented in the Scriptures under this image.”

Jamie fausset brown (isaiah 13:10)
“10. stars, &c.—figuratively for anarchy, distress, and revolutions of kingdoms (Isa 34:4; Joe 2:10; Eze 32:7, 8; Am 8:9; Re 6:12-14). There may be a literal fulfilment finally, shadowed forth under this imagery (Re 21:1).”

gills (isaiah 13:10)
“For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:”

benson commentary (Isaiah 13:10)
“Or, rather, the prophet foretels the utter subversion of their republic, and the entire overthrow of their religion and polity, under the emblem of the extinction or passing away of the sun, moon, and stars, and all the heavenly bodies. For, as Bishop Lowth observes, the Hebrew writers, “to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature; from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars, which they describe as shining with increased splendour, and never setting; the moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun’s light is augmented seven-fold: see Isaiah 30:26. New heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences. On the contrary, the overthrow and destruction of kingdoms are represented by opposite images; the stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more; the earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos.”

3.) did the son of man come on the clouds in the first century?

depends on the presupposition. Is this to be understood as Christ literally, bodily, and physically descending from heaven for all eyes to literally see? If so, then this did not happen in the first century.


However, if we are to remain consistent with the NT/LXX use of genea, then maybe the above presupposition is wrong. So did Christ come on the clouds in the first century? I would argue yes, as the Bible declares, outside of olivet discourse, that Christ was coming on the clouds:

Matthew 24:64 64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming (present tense verb) with the clouds,

Additionally, OT language often represented God descending from heaven on the clouds with respect to judging nations and enemies (2 Samuel 22, Isaiah 19, Micah 1, etc…). This further adds evidence to the idea of Christ coming on the clouds to judge Israel, and not that the OD is discussing the future “2nd advent”.

If the latter is to be understood as correct, then we can say, yes, this did occur during the first century, in the disciples generation.

4.) did the angels gather the elect from the four winds of heaven on the first century?

depends on the presupposition. Is this to be understood as literal physical bodies flying into the air? If yes, then i agree, this did not occur in the first century.


However, if it is to be understood in light of the parable of the wedding feast, where the servants of the king go out gather the good and bad into wedding feast following Israel’s destruction, then we can say, yes, this did in fact occur within the first century, during the disciples generation.

None of these beliefs are exclusive to full preterism, as evidenced by the following:

Gills exposition on Matthew 24:34
“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”

 

[Hammster]

1.) did the “AOD” occur during the first century?

Depends on the presupposition, and what is meant by the “AOD”? In keeping with the actual definition and use of “this generation” , I believe it does refer to Jesus’ contemporaries. Additionally, the parallel passage from Luke tells what the AOD is: armies surrounding Jerusalem

There are four groups that this could be referring to. Any of these groups had access to the temple and most likely did what would be considered abominable things.

The zealots, the Idumeans, the Romans, and the Jews themselves.

 

[rwb]

part 1:

1.) Did false prophets/messiahs arise during the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? Yes
Matthew 24:5, 11 many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

Acts 13:16 they traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,

“A false prophet782 was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.” -Josephus

325AD Eusebius (Regarding Simon, See Acts 8) "After the Lord was taken up into heaven the demons put forth a number of men who claimed to be gods. These not only escape being persecuted by you, but were actually the objects of worship - for example Simon, a Samaritan from the village called Gittho, who in Claudius Caesar's time, thanks to the art of the demons who possessed him, worked wonders of magic, and in your imperial city of Rome was regarded as a god, and like a god was honoured by you with a statue in the River Tiber between the two bridges. It bears this inscription in Latin, SIMONI DEO SANCTO. Almost all Samaritans, and a few from other nations too, ackowledge him as their principle god, and worship him." (p. 86)

325AD Eusebius (Regarding Theudas see Acts 5:36) "When Fadus was procurator of Judea, an imposter called Theudas persuaded a vast crowd to take their belongings and follow him to the River Jordan; for he claimed to be a prophet, and promised to divide the river by his command and provide them with an easy crossing. A great many people were deceived by this talk. Fadus however did not allow them to enjoy their folly, but sent a troop of calvary against them. These attacked them without warning, killed many, and took many alive, capturing Theudas himself, whose head they cut off and conveyed to Jerusalem." (pp.84-85)

325AD Eusebius (Regarding the Egyptian of Acts 21:38) "A greater blow than this was inflicted on the Jews by the Egyptian false prophet. Arriving in the country this man, a fraud who posed as a seer, collected about 30,000 dupes, led them round by the wild country to the Mount of Olives, and from there was ready to force an entry into Jerusalem, overwhelm the Roman garrison, and seize supreme power, with his fellow-raiders as bodyguards. But Felix anticipated his attempt by meeting him with the Roman heavy infantry, the whole population rallying to the defense, so that when the clash occurred the Egyptian fled with a handful of men and most of his followers were killed or captured." (pp. 96-97) ... "These works, that were done by the robbers, filled the city with all sorts of impiety. And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them. Moreover, there came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them. (Book XX, Chapter VIII, Section 6)

2.) did wars and rumors of wars occur during the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES

Matthew 24:6-7a You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

-Roman conquest of britain
-Roman-Parthian war
-Boudica’s uprising
-Roman civil war

3.) did famines and earth quakes occur in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES

Matthew 24:7a-8 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Acts 11:27-28 Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius).

Historians record 5 earthquakes: Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, Campania 62AD

4.) were the disciples persecuted in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES, just read through the book of Acts.

matthew 24:9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

5.) did people fall away from the church in the first century leading up to the temple’s destruction? YES, that is how they knew it was the last hour

matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another.

1 john 2:18-19 18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

6.) was lawlessness at work in the first century? YES

Matthew 24:12 Because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of most will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:7a 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

7.) was the gospel preached over all the world? YES

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

romans 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

it is clear that all these events occurred during the disciples generation, in the first century.

Points 1-6 I agree happened to first century Jewish Christians, as well as to ethnic Jews when their city and temple were utterly destroyed, and many lost their lives. The problem for your doctrine is that NOTHING in the warnings have stopped for Christians as the church goes unto all the earth proclaiming the Gospel.

That brings to your number 7. The question is has the gospel been preached unto all the earth, also as a testimony to ALL nations. If the gospel has been preached as a testimony to all the nations of the earth, why is it necessary that the gospel of Christ continue to be preached? After saying the gospel had been heard and preached to every creature under heaven, Paul says he must still make known the gospel unto the Gentiles.

Revelation 14:6 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Colossians 1:23-29 (KJV) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[claninja]

There are four groups that this could be referring to. Any of these groups had access to the temple and most likely did what would be considered abominable things.

The zealots, the Idumeans, the Romans, and the Jews themselves.

absolutely agree. Josephus paints all the above parties as responsible.