This generation

[Spiritual Jew]

And further study leads to postmillennialism.

Further study leads to a stronger belief in amillennialism.

 

[Timtofly]

The question Christ posed was concerning "the earth", as I underlined it above - meaning (tes ges) the land of Israel in particular. Most want to interpret this as the Son of Man not finding faith in the entire world (which would have used another term like "oikoumenes" instead).

Israel at the (AD 70) return of Christ was going to have only a "remnant" which would be children of faith. This was what the prophet Isaiah had predicted. Although the number of the children of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, yet only a "remnant" would be saved (Isaiah 10:22-23). Paul picked up on this reference to a reserved, Israelite believing remnant in Romans 9:27-29, and applied it to his own generation of Jews in Romans 11:5. "Even so then at the present time there remaineth a remnant according to the election of grace."

This "remnant" situation for Israel was for a specific time period only, and for that specific nation in particular, and was not predictive of the entire world at the close of fallen humanity's existence on this planet. God promised and then designed His kingdom to grow slowly among all the nations, and to keep increasing in numbers all the way until the final judgment and resurrection.

Do you think the earth literally changed at 70AD?

Why would nothing in Scripture be available after 70AD? You only assume Jesus came in 70AD, because you throw every prophecy at that date in time.

No, you cannot postpone any judgment thousands of years later. The coming is the pronunciation of all judgment concerning those living. You are literally in the same boat as Amil who declares finality, but then hedges, anything could still happen as a futurist. These would be partial futurist, which is as impossible as partial preterist. No such thing as a partial return. It does not matter if that alledged return was 70AD or 1000AD or any point in time.

70AD was not even the end of the OT economy. That was the Cross. Caiaphas the high priest responsible for the death of Jesus died in 36AD. God came in judgment 34 years before 70AD.

The Second Coming happens 1,000 years prior to the GWT just as sure as there have been 1992 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. Just as sure as 483 years happened between a decree from the King who let the Hebrews return to Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah the Prince.

Each step of the prophetic time happened and will happen as God declared in His Word. The only thing not disclosed was the actual day and hour of the Second Coming. No one can declare a date, not even a past date. Because at the Second Coming all will know it happened. There will be 100% consensus.

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Everyone in heaven and on earth will know. This does not describe 70AD one iota. Nor does it describe an immediate judgment and finality of life.

 

[Hammster]

You're always so dismissive. I didn't just say "no, it's not". I explained why Matthew 22:14 cannot possibly be only referring to Jews because of the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 relating to the gospel going out to both Jews and Gentiles. So, the many who are called and the few who are chosen refer to both Jews and Gentiles and not just Jews. So, if you disagree with that interpretation then show me why Matthew 22:14 should only apply to Jews instead of just trying to dismiss what I'm saying.

That’s on me. I misread your point.

That parable is not just for the Jews.

 

[Hammster]

Further study leads to a stronger belief in amillennialism.

Study more, then.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That’s on me. I misread your point.

That parable is not just for the Jews.

Okay, so what do you think it means when Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen" then?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Study more, then.

I could study 24/7 for the next 20 years and I'm certain that I would still not believe in postmillennialism. It's a weak doctrine, at best, in my opinion.

 

[rwb]

But, in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4 John said he saw the souls of those who had died. He didn't say that he saw souls, he said he saw THE souls of believers who had died. Like other scripture, that indicates that the soul is one of the three parts of a human being along with the spirit and the body.

Yes, John sees the souls of the martyred saints. Soul = breath of life; i.e. spirit life as heart, life, mind. A living human soul without a living body is spirit.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. ψυχή psyche (psychḗ)

ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'
from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Can't you see there that the soul is being differentiated from the body? That's different than the spirit and body making up a soul (person). That verse you referenced here is another example of a verse that talks about the soul as being a part of us like the spirit and the body. Yes, we can refer to human beings as souls, but that's not the context of verses like these.

A living soul is a human body endowed with the breath of life (spirit). This describes the complete or whole living human as God created them.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, so what do you think it means when Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen" then?

Many Jews are called, few are chosen. But if you notice, the wedding feast was made up of mostly non-Jews.

 

[Hammster]

I could study 24/7 for the next 20 years and I'm certain that I would still not believe in postmillennialism. It's a weak doctrine, at best, in my opinion.

Then you are just studying wrongly. I used to be Amil.

 

[Timtofly]

Hope you won't mind one more question. When you say our natural body becomes immortal, incorruptible, and spiritual, do you mean our natural body will then have supernatural power?

One other additional thought. Human beings consist of body and spirit, and those two things together become a living soul. When Paul prays our whole spirit soul and body be preserved blameless, he is praying for our physical body, our mind, heart, will etc. (inner spirit), our entire being (soul) be preserved blameless unto the coming of Christ. In other words that we remain strong and faithful to the end.

The spirit is not an inward phenomenon.

Putting on the spirit is over the physical body. It is putting on the spirit as one would put on a garment. John used the symbolism of a robe of white, and only when the 5th Seal is opened. Paul describes it as putting on immortality.

Putting on immortality, is not a change in the physical body. It is the robe of white symbolism. It is not literal immortality, and not a literal robe of white. Literally it is a light. Jesus demonstrated the spirit on the mount of Transfiguration.

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

Daniel 12:3

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Two verses describing what it is to put on immortality. The body is never described as becoming immortal in Scripture. The physical body changes from corruptible to incorruptible. Or as Paul puts it because this body literally returns to dust; the soul changes the body like an outer garment as well. This corruptible will put on incorruption. This is another of Paul's descriptions:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Many point out that this flesh cannot enter Paradise. But the flesh is changed like a set of clothes, not literally the dust of the ground reformed. This spiritual body is still physical. It is no longer from the dust. But a permanent incorruptible physical body. Paul was not being redundant for the Second Coming change. Paul was stating the soul will put on a new physical body, and put on the spirit at the same time. The spirit is not the breath inside of us. The spirit is God being a light put on over the physical body. Two separate phenomenon. The soul distinct from the spirit, the spirit distinct from the body, and the body distinct from the soul.

The word used for spirit in the Greek is the same word meaning air or breadth, but that is not the connotation that should be attributed to the spirit in either human creation verses: Genesis 1 or Genesis 2. Even if one declares God is physical and not spiritual because of having literal physical breath, that does not make the spirit merely "air within us". God is light. The spirit as a "garment" of light around the body is the proper image of God. The soul without physical properties, is the image of the Holy Spirit. The physical flesh is the image of the Son. When Adam sinned, he lost the spirit, God image of light. He lost the incorruptible permanent physical body, and was given a temporal corruptible body of sin. The only part that remained was the soul.

The Cross restored the physical body. Because Jesus was physically redeeming the physical. Those in Abraham's bosom as souls were afforded a new permanent physical body. The putting on of the spirit will happen for all in Christ; those in Paradise and those brought from the earth, whose souls shed their physical bodies in mid-air. The reason why John addresses them as souls is because we are the soul, not the body. Saying he saw bodies under the alter, would indicate bodies without souls, just as easily as indicate souls without bodies. But not if John was pointing out the individual, as the individual is the soul, not one's body. After the putting on of the robe of white, the whole point of the 5th Seal, later John sees all the glorified redeemed before the throne in heaven. All the souls currently in Paradise are under the alter/covered by the Atonement. Not just those martyred. We alive on earth are still souls under the alter, covered by the Atonement.

We will join them in the 6th Seal. Being glorified is being restored to the whole image of God as sons of God. But John could also be seeing the souls alive on earth as well, as he would not see the living corruptible bodies on earth, but the soul as being covered by the Atonement. The 5th and 6th Seal are openings that happen instantly together.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Matthew’s focus is on the Jews in the audience, because his writing is focused on the Jews. So the statement is true concerning them at that time. Look at the parallel in Luke:


“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
— Luke 13:24-30

This also lines up with what Matthew records later in chapter 8.


I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
— Matthew 8:11-12

So when I look at the passage describing the kingdom as filling the world, I’m looking at them correctly.

That is not true. These are general truths that are still unfolding. Only Extreme Preterists would state such. Their theology depends upon it. That is because they are fixated with the coming of Titus and AD70. Like Dispies, they are obsessed with natural Israel and limit the Gospel relevance and application of Christ's teaching to them. The rest of us see the broad timeless truths where Christ preached about the Gospel expanse throughout the world and the period between His first Advent and His Second Advent. Anything that cuts across that is carefully and conveniently restricted to a narrow window in time. Thankfully, in real life, it is very rare to come across people who teach this. As a pastor, I only come across pastors or believers who believe this once in 15 years, and I move in broad circles.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, you are not looking at them correctly. What Jesus said applies to everyone, not just Jews.

Would you try to say the same thing about what Jesus said here:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

He did not say this just in relation to first century Jews because He had just told a parable about the gospel first going out to the Jews and then going to the Gentiles throughout the world. So, He was saying that many in the world are called, but few are chosen. You can't get around this by trying to claim that He was only talking about Jews because that is clearly not the case.

Exactly! Another good text. Postmils read this: "many are called, but many are chosen."

 

[sovereigngrace]

It was the case. I showed it was the case by showing the parallel passage. And combine that with the passages that I’ve presented showing the scope of the kingdom, you’ll have to come up with some more than “no, it’s not”.

This is total avoidance. All these texts forbid Postmil.

 

[Hammster]

That is not true. These are general truths that are still unfolding. Only Extreme Preterists would state such. Their theology depends upon it. That is because they are fixated with the coming of Titus and AD70. Like Dispies, they are obsessed with natural Israel and limit the Gospel relevance and application of Christ's teaching to them. The rest of us see the broad timeless truths where Christ preached about the Gospel expanse throughout the world and the period between His first Advent and His Second Advent. Anything that cuts across that is carefully and conveniently restricted to a narrow window in time. Thankfully, in real life, it is very rare to come across people who teach this. As a pastor, I only come across pastors or believers who believe this once in 15 years, and I move in broad circles.

Not much of a rebuttal.

 

[Hammster]

This is total avoidance. All these texts forbid Postmil.

Not much of rebuttal.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not much of a rebuttal.

Facts are stubborn things!!!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not much of rebuttal.

I refer you back to the several sidestepped posts that forbid your theory.

 

[Hammster]

I refer you back to the several sidestepped posts that forbid your theory.

I’ll, then, refer you to my solid arguments throughout.

Dang, that’s a lot easier than presenting an argument.

 

[Hammster]

Facts are stubborn things!!!

You didn’t present any. That’s why I said it wasn’t much of a rebuttal.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You didn’t present any. That’s why I said it wasn’t much of a rebuttal.

These evasive sound bites that you constantly present are no substitute to the solid unwavering Scripture that you avoid. Your fight is with the sacred text again.