This generation

[Spiritual Jew]

Hope you won't mind one more question. When you say our natural body becomes immortal, incorruptible, and spiritual, do you mean our natural body will then have supernatural power?

No. I'm saying our natural, corruptible and mortal body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible and immortal body. That's what I believe Paul was talking about when he said we will all be changed at the last trumpet.

One other additional thought. Human beings consist of body and spirit, and those two things together become a living soul. When Paul prays our whole spirit soul and body be preserved blameless, he is praying for our physical body, our mind, heart, will etc. (inner spirit), our entire being (soul) be preserved blameless unto the coming of Christ. In other words that we remain strong and faithful to the end.

I disagree. That's not the impression that 1 Thess 5:23 gives at all. He refers to the body, spirit and soul as three different entities of who we are.

Here is another verse which shows that the soul and spirit are two separate entities that are part of our being.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul and spirit are separate parts of us, yet this verse indicates that they are almost inseparable. Only the word of God can divide them.

 

[Hammster]

But, apparently, not all scripture.

Yes, all scripture. OT and NT. And maps.

How long do you think it will be until most of the world is saved? At the rate it's going it seems like it would take quite a long time.

It could be thousands of years. For all we know, this could still be the early church.

Congratulations on missing the point. Well done. Of course I didn't mean you were taking it literally in the way you're talking about. I was saying you're taking it literally in terms of seeing a description of a mountain filling the whole earth and thinking that means everyone on earth will become saved rather than recognizing that it's talking about some people being saved in all parts of the earth.

Couple that and the leaven leavening three pecks of flour, and the mustard seed, and the field that was sown, and they all paint a picture of mass conversion.

Why would Jesus have been questioning if He would find faith in Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Well, He just finished the OD where He described what would happen within that generation. Then He gave a parable about perseverance in prayer. So it fits

What judgment? Against the Jews in Jerusalem? 2nd Thess 2 clearly has nothing to do with that. It has to do with His coming and our being gathered to Him. You seem to be ignoring that. What gathering to Christ occurred in 70 AD? It's clearly a reference to the same event that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Do you think 1 Thess 4:14-17 is already fulfilled?

The way it’s written indicates a close parallel to the OD. So the judgment is on Israel. I see no reason to link this with 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[claninja]

I disagree. The coming of the Son of man involves the gathering of His own to Him "in the air", which is what the gathering of the elect refers to (Matt 24:30-31),

if your presupposition is true (the angles/messengers gathering the elect from all over the earth = literal bodies flying into the air), then I would agree that didn’t happen.

However, Christ said it would occur within “this generation”, therefore, I disagree with your presupposition on that passage. The servants were to gather the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of Israel (matthew 22:7-10). Therefore, I believe Christ sending his angels/messengers to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven (Hebrew idiom) following the destruction of Israel is the same event as Matthew 22:7, because that did in fact happen during Jesus’ generation.

I believe you're not understanding that they were talking in terms of the certainty and continual approach of His coming rather than saying it was going to literally happen soon. No one knew when His second coming was going to happen and no one will know until it actually happens (Matthew 24:42-44). You don't seem to be taking that into account.

The perfect tense is never used to mean “continual” so I have no idea what you are talking about. So i believe you are not understanding how language works. No one knew the day nor hour, but they did know it would occur within their generation, just like a pregnancy.

How would I know what they believed about that?

By reading the Bible:

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

what do you believe this passage means? What were they to know when they saw “all those things”?

were they to know nothing, as you are inferring?

And it was the last days at that time, but we're still in the last days now. The last days refer to the time period during which people would call on the Lord and be saved (Acts 2:16-21). Is that not still happening today? Sure, it is. And, the last days would go right up until Christ returns and takes vengeance on all His enemies in the world (2 Peter 3:3-13), which has not happened yet.

you keep giving me your presuppositions, and then changing the definition of words to fit your presupposition. I’m not talking about the “2nd advent”. I’m talking about Christ coming in judgement upon Israel, which was literally soon to happen and did occur within the first century generation.

the author of Hebrews literally stated the coming of the Lord would occur “in a little while” and “without delay”. James wrote the coming of the Lord “had drawn near”.

 

[Timtofly]

Obviously, the portion you have in bold letters is not applicable until the portion you don't have in bold letters is true first. What you don't have in bold letters has not even happened yet. The text says---and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found---which is clearly not the case yet. What you have in bold letters concerning this part---became a great mountain and filled the whole earth---speaks of a time after Christ has bodily returned, not a time prior to His bodily return. Even if there is no thousand years after His bodily return, my position, it is still meaning after His bodily return, not prior to it instead.

I think by the time of the Reformation all traces of the statue were gone. Some think that the 10 kingdom beast of Revelation 13 is the exact same beast. But it cannot be. After the Second Coming the geographical earth will be changed. Even now China, India, and the America's will be part of the new 10 kingdom structure. Certainly these were not part of the last Roman 10 toed kingdom of Europe.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

if your presupposition is true (the angles/messengers gathering the elect from all over the earth = literal bodies flying into the air), then I would agree that didn’t happen.

However, Christ said it would occur within “this generation”, therefore, I disagree with your presupposition on that passage. The servants were to gather the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of Israel (matthew 22:7-10). Therefore, I believe Christ sending his angels/messengers to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven (Hebrew idiom) following the destruction of Israel is the same event as Matthew 22:7, because that did in fact happen during Jesus’ generation.

You're acting as if Matthew 24:31 says the angels would only begin to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven at that time, but it doesn't. It's clear to me that it's talking about the gathering of all of the elect at one time just like is the case in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17. Matthew 25:31-46, which is referring to the same coming of the Son of man as Matthew 24:27-31, has all of the elect gathered before Christ at the judgment. So, this is further evidence that it's talking about all of the elect being gathered at one time rather than over a long period of time as you believe.

The perfect tense is never used to mean “continual” so I have no idea what you are talking about. So i believe you are not understanding how language works. No one knew the day nor hour, but they did know it would occur within their generation, just like a pregnancy.

At this point, I could not care less if you know what I'm talking about or not. What's clear to me is that you are not the Greek expert that you seem to think you are.

Do you consider the translators of English Bible translations like the NIV, KJV and NASB to be trustworthy Greek experts? If so, then why do they interpret the Greek word "angelos" as angels in Matthew 24:31 while you don't? I don't know of even one English translation which translates the word "angelos" as "messengers" or "human messengers" in Matthew 24:31. But, you apparently think you know Greek better than all of them.

By reading the Bible:

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

what do you believe this passage means? What were they to know when they saw “all those things”?

were they to know nothing, as you are inferring?

When did I say or infer that? I didn't. Obviously, not everything He talked about previously indicated that His coming was near. He indicated that the wars, earthquakes, famines and such would only be the beginning of birth pains so those things do not indicate that His coming "is near, right at the door". So, what things in particular indicate that His coming is near, right at the door then? In my view it's things like what Jesus said here:

Matthew 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And here:

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

To me, these verses line up with what Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians 2 about their being a mass falling away from the faith before our being gathered to Him at His coming. Scripture talks about a time period just before His return when wickedness will be increased and a mass falling away will occur. I believe this time period is the same as Satan's little season described in Revelation 20.

you keep giving me your presuppositions, and then changing the definition of words to fit your presupposition.

Wrong. I'm not changing anything. You know you are desperate when you have to resort to making false accusations like this.

I’m not talking about the “2nd advent”. I’m talking about Christ coming in judgement upon Israel, which was literally soon to happen and did occur within the first century generation.

the author of Hebrews literally stated the coming of the Lord would occur “in a little while” and “without delay”. James wrote the coming of the Lord “had drawn near”.

Yep, you go ahead and continue misinterpreting what they meant if you want, which leads to you contradicting a lot of scripture. That's your choice.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Because you said


Filling the whole world. Leavening all the flour. That’s not descriptive of just some here and there.



My scripture lines up fine with the proper understanding of those verses.

You are totally misinterpreting the meaning of these Scriptures.

Your theology may teach you otherwise, but, the narrow road is NOT the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction. That’s what Jesus says in this Book.

The mammoth success of the great commission does not negate the fact that straight is the gate and narrow is the way. The most solemn words in Scripture are found in Matt 7:13-14. I am going to be honest, I wish they weren’t in there. Jesus said: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The saddest reality in this Book is that the majority of people go to hell, the minority go to heaven. The Bible says that there would only be a small minority or a “few” that would truly get it.

Preachers today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” On the authority of this Word, I can tell you that that is a lie forged on the anvil of hell. Christ blows-apart such folly in this important passage.

The narrow road is not the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction.

In Luke 13:23-28, we see Christ responding to an important question from the disciples, who asked, “Lord, are there few that be saved?”

Whereupon the Lord replies, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Most will end up locked outside the gates of heaven. The “many” are on the wrong road. The “few” are on God’s road.

This reality is repeated in Luke 17. There Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) ‘apokaluptetai’ ” (v 30).

The overwhelming bulk of the world’s population were destroyed in Noah’s day, apart from Noah and his family (8 people in total). The whole of Sodom was destroyed apart from three people (lot and his 2 daughters). It will be the same at the end. The destruction that accompanies the coming of Christ is sudden destruction. It is similar to that which befell the wicked in Noah and Lot's day, and notably, none of them escaped.

Hebrews 11:7 says, “By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”

Before the judgment in Noah’s day, the world overwhelmingly rejected the truth of God. Few survived! Scripture again above confirm that only eight souls were saved in Noah’s day, all of which were of his own house!!!

1 Peter 3:20 says, “once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

The boat represented Christ; all that entered experienced salvation. Expressly, only “eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day, the rest were destroyed. Noah's family were redeemed. Scripture makes that clear.

Genesis 19:15-16, 26, records of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, “And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city…But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Scripture expressly discloses that only three souls were eventually saved in Lot’s day all of which were again of his own house!!! The end will be the same.

 

[DavidPT]

if your presupposition is true (the angles/messengers gathering the elect from all over the earth = literal bodies flying into the air), then I would agree that didn’t happen.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound(phone) of a trumpet(salpigx), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This is what these 2 accounts record. Matthew 24 records that it involves a great sound of a trumpet. Are there any passages outside of the gospel accounts that involve both a coming and a trumpet? There is the following below that does, but you likely chalk that up as a coincidence, thus no connection.

Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice(phone) of the archangel, and with the trump(salpigx) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 per the context involving the coming of the Son of man, it records this---then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh, rather than what Matthew 24:31 records, yet it is obviously involving what Matthew 24:31 is involving.

This verse indicates that one's redemption draweth nigh when these things begin to come to pass, and that it has to be meaning the day of redemption as is recorded in the verse below. How can you have something drawing nigh, that it is beginning to do that 2000 years ago, but that the day of redemption is still in the future, that that day has not even arrived yet? This means per your interpretation that one's redemption that draweth nigh, that this nigh is meaning at least 2000 years in length. I thought Preterists argued, for example, if something is drawing nigh, it means it is soon to come to pass, like real soon. Something that is drawing nigh 2000 years ago and then it finally coming to pass some 2000 years later, hardly sounds like it is describing something soon to come to pass, like real soon.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



BTW, I know how things basically work, which may or may not apply to you in this case since I don't recall whether you were initially a futurist or not. Since some Preterists were initially futurists then eventually switched to Preterism, therefore, there is no turning back once one has done that. But if there is such a thing as having been right to begin with though, then I don't see why anyone would need to think there is no turning back once one has switched from one view to another.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It could be thousands of years. For all we know, this could still be the early church.

That's highly doubtful if the increase in immorality in the world continues. These days sexual perversion that God hates is seen as normal in most of the world. As time goes on, it's only getting worse. You get treated like a bigot if you speak out against it in any way. Also, things like the legalization of abortion (resulting in the mass murder of unborn babies) in many countries just in the last 60 to 70 years is a telltale sign to me that the return of Christ and the end of the world as we know is not likely too far away. There have been 65 countries which have legalized abortion just in the last 67 years (15 countries legalized it in 1955 - most or maybe all were part of the Soviet Union). How long will God be willing to put up with things like this? Thousands of years? I highly doubt it.

Couple that and the leaven leavening three pecks of flour, and the mustard seed, and the field that was sown, and they all paint a picture of mass conversion.

It paints a picture of a large number of people being saved, which is exactly what has happened over the years, but that does not mean it's talking about a high percentage of the world population becoming saved at any point. You're reading that into it.

Well, He just finished the OD where He described what would happen within that generation. Then He gave a parable about perseverance in prayer. So it fits

So, you think Jesus was somehow unaware at that time of what Paul later wrote about in Romans 11:1-5 regarding there being a remnant that would be saved in that time period?

The way it’s written indicates a close parallel to the OD. So the judgment is on Israel. I see no reason to link this with 1 Thessalonians 4.

They both talk about His second coming and the elect being gathered, but you see no reason to link it with 1 Thessalonians 4. Okay, sure.

 

[Hammster]

You are totally misinterpreting the meaning of these Scriptures.

Your theology may teach you otherwise, but, the narrow road is NOT the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction. That’s what Jesus says in this Book.

The mammoth success of the great commission does not negate the fact that straight is the gate and narrow is the way. The most solemn words in Scripture are found in Matt 7:13-14. I am going to be honest, I wish they weren’t in there. Jesus said: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The saddest reality in this Book is that the majority of people go to hell, the minority go to heaven. The Bible says that there would only be a small minority or a “few” that would truly get it.

Preachers today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” On the authority of this Word, I can tell you that that is a lie forged on the anvil of hell. Christ blows-apart such folly in this important passage.

The narrow road is not the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction.

In Luke 13:23-28, we see Christ responding to an important question from the disciples, who asked, “Lord, are there few that be saved?”

Whereupon the Lord replies, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Most will end up locked outside the gates of heaven. The “many” are on the wrong road. The “few” are on God’s road.

This reality is repeated in Luke 17. There Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) ‘apokaluptetai’ ” (v 30).

The overwhelming bulk of the world’s population were destroyed in Noah’s day, apart from Noah and his family (8 people in total). The whole of Sodom was destroyed apart from three people (lot and his 2 daughters). It will be the same at the end. The destruction that accompanies the coming of Christ is sudden destruction. It is similar to that which befell the wicked in Noah and Lot's day, and notably, none of them escaped.

Hebrews 11:7 says, “By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”

Before the judgment in Noah’s day, the world overwhelmingly rejected the truth of God. Few survived! Scripture again above confirm that only eight souls were saved in Noah’s day, all of which were of his own house!!!

1 Peter 3:20 says, “once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

The boat represented Christ; all that entered experienced salvation. Expressly, only “eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day, the rest were destroyed. Noah's family were redeemed. Scripture makes that clear.

Genesis 19:15-16, 26, records of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, “And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city…But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Scripture expressly discloses that only three souls were eventually saved in Lot’s day all of which were again of his own house!!!

The end will be the same.

Matthew’s focus is on the Jews in the audience, because his writing is focused on the Jews. So the statement is true concerning them at that time. Look at the parallel in Luke:


“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
— Luke 13:24-30

This also lines up with what Matthew records later in chapter 8.


I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
— Matthew 8:11-12

So when I look at the passage describing the kingdom as filling the world, I’m looking at them correctly.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are totally misinterpreting the meaning of these Scriptures.

Your theology may teach you otherwise, but, the narrow road is NOT the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction. That’s what Jesus says in this Book.

The mammoth success of the great commission does not negate the fact that straight is the gate and narrow is the way. The most solemn words in Scripture are found in Matt 7:13-14. I am going to be honest, I wish they weren’t in there. Jesus said: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The saddest reality in this Book is that the majority of people go to hell, the minority go to heaven. The Bible says that there would only be a small minority or a “few” that would truly get it.

That passage alone destroys postmillennialism. Jesus also said that many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16 and Matt 22:14). Postmillennialists think that what Jesus said was only a temporary condition and that at some point many will be called and all or most will be chosen. But, scripture never teaches such a thing. Jesus certainly never did. What He said in the passage you quoted was not just a temporary condition that would no longer be the case at some point in the future, which is what postmillennialists believe. They must believe that His statement that many are called, but few are chosen was just a temporary condition as well, but there is no indication of such a thing.

Preachers today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” On the authority of this Word, I can tell you that that is a lie forged on the anvil of hell. Christ blows-apart such folly in this important passage.

Absolutely agree. It's a terrible development.

The narrow road is not the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction.

In Luke 13:23-28, we see Christ responding to an important question from the disciples, who asked, “Lord, are there few that be saved?”

Whereupon the Lord replies, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Most will end up locked outside the gates of heaven. The “many” are on the wrong road. The “few” are on God’s road.

This reality is repeated in Luke 17. There Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) ‘apokaluptetai’ ” (v 30).

The overwhelming bulk of the world’s population were destroyed in Noah’s day, apart from Noah and his family (8 people in total). The whole of Sodom was destroyed apart from three people (lot and his 2 daughters). It will be the same at the end. The destruction that accompanies the coming of Christ is sudden destruction. It is similar to that which befell the wicked in Noah and Lot's day, and notably, none of them escaped.

Hebrews 11:7 says, “By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”

Before the judgment in Noah’s day, the world overwhelmingly rejected the truth of God. Few survived! Scripture again above confirm that only eight souls were saved in Noah’s day, all of which were of his own house!!!

1 Peter 3:20 says, “once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

The boat represented Christ; all that entered experienced salvation. Expressly, only “eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day, the rest were destroyed. Noah's family were redeemed. Scripture makes that clear.

Genesis 19:15-16, 26, records of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, “And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city…But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Scripture expressly discloses that only three souls were eventually saved in Lot’s day all of which were again of his own house!!! The end will be the same.

Again, I agree. How can postmillennialists possibly get around all these scriptures? I'm sure they try, but it's impossible.

 

[Hammster]

How can postmillennialists possibly get around all these scriptures? I'm sure they try, but it's impossible.

By understanding context, and using proper hermeneutics.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew’s focus is on the Jews in the audience, because his writing is focused on the Jews. So the statement is true concerning them at that time. Look at the parallel in Luke:


“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
— Luke 13:24-30

This also lines up with what Matthew records later in chapter 8.


I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
— Matthew 8:11-12

So when I look at the passage describing the kingdom as filling the world, I’m looking at them correctly.

No, you are not looking at them correctly. What Jesus said applies to everyone, not just Jews.

Would you try to say the same thing about what Jesus said here:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

He did not say this just in relation to first century Jews because He had just told a parable about the gospel first going out to the Jews and then going to the Gentiles throughout the world. So, He was saying that many in the world are called, but few are chosen. You can't get around this by trying to claim that He was only talking about Jews because that is clearly not the case.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

By understanding context, and using proper hermeneutics.

That leads to a belief in amillennialism, not postmillennialism.

 

[Timtofly]

Filling the whole world. Leavening all the flour. That’s not descriptive of just some here and there.

Actually that is exactly what it means. The flour does not become the leaven. The leaven does not become the flour. The leaven is spread evenly throughout the flour. The leaven fills in the void, and makes the flour more palatable. In the reality of the flour, the leaven is bitter and distasteful, but it sure makes the flour a whole lot better, and full of life.

No, I don't accept that only some will be saved and the rest are not. The fact is that many will reject Christ, because God does not force redeem souls until after the Second Coming. The analogy of the flour only works between the Cross and the Second Coming. Interestingly leaven was not allowed in the OT economy. Crazy juxtaposition between the law and grace.

Yet even Paul pointed out that the law was the bondage of sin. Under grace that which was forbidden under the law, is now the freedom in Christ.

If your point is that the whole world has to accept God, you would be wrong:

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

 

[Hammster]

No, you are not looking at them correctly. What Jesus said applies to everyone, not just Jews.

Would you try to say the same thing about what Jesus said here:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

He did not say this just in relation to first century Jews because He had just told a parable about the gospel first going out to the Jews and then going to the Gentiles throughout the world. So, He was saying that many in the world are called, but few are chosen. You can't get around this by trying to claim that He was only talking about Jews because that is clearly not the case.

It was the case. I showed it was the case by showing the parallel passage. And combine that with the passages that I’ve presented showing the scope of the kingdom, you’ll have to come up with some more than “no, it’s not”.

 

[Hammster]

That leads to a belief in amillennialism, not postmillennialism.

And further study leads to postmillennialism.

 

[Hammster]

If your point is that the whole world has to accept God, you would be wrong:

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

*land

And I dealt with this earlier.

 

[rwb]

No. I'm saying our natural, corruptible and mortal body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible and immortal body. That's what I believe Paul was talking about when he said we will all be changed at the last trumpet.

I might be able to technically agree, if you understand the body cannot become the spirit and the spirit does not become the body. The body is always the outward man of flesh, blood, bone, tendons, ligaments etc. The spirit is always the inner man, that part of man that enables us to think, have emotions, instructs our senses, and bodily functions, etc. The body cannot function without the enabling that comes from the spirit. The body does not make the spirit live, the spirit gives life to the body. That the body becomes immortal and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds, without the breath of life from the spirit that would not be possible. Hench why I said I could technically agree with you.

Our spirit is what returns with Christ when He comes again. It has eternal life after death through Christ's Spirit. Our eternal spirit must be re-united with our new immortal and incorruptible body in order for us to be a complete living soul.

I disagree. That's not the impression that 1 Thess 5:23 gives at all. He refers to the body, spirit and soul as three different entities of who we are.

Here is another verse which shows that the soul and spirit are two separate entities that are part of our being.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul and spirit are separate parts of us, yet this verse indicates that they are almost inseparable. Only the word of God can divide them.

The soul is the living man. The Word (Christ) is able to divide the living man from his spirit (breath of life) and his body (joints & marrow). That's why Christ tells believers we need not fear the one who can kill the body, but rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell Mt. 10:28.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It was the case. I showed it was the case by showing the parallel passage. And combine that with the passages that I’ve presented showing the scope of the kingdom, you’ll have to come up with some more than “no, it’s not”.

You're always so dismissive. I didn't just say "no, it's not". I explained why Matthew 22:14 cannot possibly be only referring to Jews because of the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 relating to the gospel going out to both Jews and Gentiles. So, the many who are called and the few who are chosen refer to both Jews and Gentiles and not just Jews. So, if you disagree with that interpretation then show me why Matthew 22:14 should only apply to Jews instead of just trying to dismiss what I'm saying.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I might be able to technically agree, if you understand the body cannot become the spirit and the spirit does not become the body.

I never said that. I'm wondering if you are anywhere near close to understanding what I've been trying to say. It seems not.

Our spirit is what returns with Christ when He comes again.

But, in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4 John said he saw the souls of those who had died. He didn't say that he saw souls, he said he saw THE souls of believers who had died. Like other scripture, that indicates that the soul is one of the three parts of a human being along with the spirit and the body.

The soul is the living man. The Word (Christ) is able to divide the living man from his spirit (breath of life) and his body (joints & marrow). That's why Christ tells believers we need not fear the one who can kill the body, but rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell Mt. 10:28.

Can't you see there that the soul is being differentiated from the body? That's different than the spirit and body making up a soul (person). That verse you referenced here is another example of a verse that talks about the soul as being a part of us like the spirit and the body. Yes, we can refer to human beings as souls, but that's not the context of verses like these.