This generation

[Hammster]

Why would you say something like this to me as if I'm a futurist who thinks every major news event is the fulfillment of prophecy?

Because you said

There are currently no nations that are mostly Christian and there's nothing to indicate that will ever happen, so I find your view to be very farfetched.

That is not at all what any of those scriptures teach. Not even close. Instead, they teach that there would eventually be a lot of believers and they would be found in every nation in the world. And that has come to pass and there will be more who believe as time goes on. But in no way, shape or form are those passages suggesting that most of the people in the world would one day become Christians.

Filling the whole world. Leavening all the flour. That’s not descriptive of just some here and there.

Only when Christ comes one day to destroy all of His many enemies in the world will the entire world be made up of only Christians while everyone else will be cast into the lake of fire. Your doctrine does not line up with the scriptures which teach that a vast number of Christ's enemies will all be destroyed at once (2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9) instead of their numbers decreasing gradually over time as you believe.

My scripture lines up fine with the proper understanding of those verses.

 

[DavidPT]

It was written in past tense before it happened. And I never said it all has happened. My point is that it will happen as written.

I edited that post just a few seconds ago, in order to make the point I was trying to make, clearer. In light of that, you still think this is meaning before He bodily returns and not after instead, correct?

 

[Hammster]

I edited that post just a few seconds ago, in order to make the point I was trying to make, clearer. In light of that, you still think this is meaning before He bodily returns and not after instead, correct?

Yes, according to 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because you said

What I said isn't based on news reports, it's based on reality. Do you think a majority of people are Christians in the world today?

Filling the whole world. Leavening all the flour. That’s not descriptive of just some here and there.

It's a description of some everywhere, not most or all everywhere as you believe. It means Christians can be found throughout the world, not that everyone or most people in the world will be Christians.

My scripture lines up fine with the proper understanding of those verses.

No, it really doesn't. And it doesn't line up with a lot of other scripture, either. Especially the scriptures which teach that there will be many unsaved people on the earth when Christ returns and they will all be destroyed at that time.

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”.

This passage indicates that it is expected that there will not be many true believers on the earth when Jesus comes. That lines up with what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 about a mass falling away from the faith occurring just prior to the return of Christ. Your doctrine contradicts passages like these and many others.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes, according to 1 Corinthians 15.

Currently it is 2022. In your opinion which is more true today? There are more Christians in the world, thus less wickedness. Or, there is more wickedness in the world since there are not yet enough Christians in the world.

No one knows when He will bodily return, right? Couldn't that mean He could return within the next 2 years, as an example? Assuming He could return within the next 2 years, does that allow enough time for there to be more Christians in the world, thus less wickedness? That, assuming you don't think that is already the case, that there are already enough Christians in the world, thus less wickedness in the world.

Of all of the views, Premil, Amil, and Postmil, it is Postmil that is the least likely to be the correct view. Postmil makes zero sense to me, for numerous reasons.

 

[Hammster]

What I said isn't based on news reports, it's based on reality. Do you think a majority of people are Christians in the world today?

Do you have done sort of gnostic ability to determine this?

And no, I don’t think we have a majority. But our percentages keep going up.

It's a description of some everywhere, not most or all everywhere as you believe. It means Christians can be found throughout the world, not that everyone or most people in the world will be Christians.

That would be fine except the word pictures painted don’t show that.

No, it really doesn't. And it doesn't line up with a lot of other scripture, either. Especially the scriptures which teach that there will be many unsaved people on the earth when Christ returns and they will all be destroyed at that time.

Scripture doesn’t teach that.

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”.

70 AD

This passage indicates that it is expected that there will not be many true believers on the earth when Jesus comes. That lines up with what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 about a mass falling away from the faith occurring just prior to the return of Christ. Your doctrine contradicts passages like these and many others.

70 AD.

 

[Hammster]

Currently it is 2022. In your opinion which is more true today? There are more Christians in the world, thus less wickedness. Or, there is more wickedness in the world since there are not yet enough Christians in the world.

No one knows when He will bodily return, right? Couldn't that mean He could return within the next 2 years, as an example? Assuming He could return within the next 2 years, does that allow enough time for there to be more Christians in the world, thus less wickedness? That, assuming you don't think that is already the case, that there are already enough Christians in the world, thus less wickedness in the world.

Of all of the views, Premil, Amil, and Postmil, it is Postmil that is the least likely to be the correct view. Postmil makes zero sense to me, for numerous reasons.

It it possible that we will have worldwide revival in the next two years, and all of Christ’s enemies will be defeated? I suppose so. But I’m not counting on it to happen. I’m still praying for my great grandchildren.

 

[rwb]

I know that. I didn't say otherwise. What I'm saying is that our natural, corruptible, mortal body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible, immortal body at the last trumpet. Otherwise, what is the change that will take place at that time? A natural body is naturally mortal, so it has to be changed into a type of body that is immortal and that type of body is a spiritual body.

Our natural mortal, corruptible will be made immortal and without corruption when it is resurrected and changed. But our natural body is not our spirit. Our body houses our spirit. The breath of life that God breathes into mankind is our spirit life.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath - נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw' - a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Life - חַי chay, khah'-ee - alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

So the breath of life God breathes into humankind is that which creates our spirit. It is to be alive with intellect, mind, will, emotion, appetite and divine inspirataion, in other words life our natural body does not have, because it is formed from the dust of the ground. The body with the breath of life; i.e. the spirit of man together make us whole. As God says, "a living soul."

Soul - נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh - properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

You have agreed that the fall brought sin and death through sin into creation. So that the breath of life that God breathed into mankind enabling them to possess divine inspiration, or with the ability to know God for eternal life was lost. Now the spirit in man would no longer be able to seek the Lord, because in a fallen state man has a new spirit nature, one that has no desire for God. In unbelief man now has lost the ability to approach the tree of life to live forever because God blocked man's way. Now the only way man can turn to God for life everlasting in through Christ.

This is why Scripture tells us man is born "dead in trespasses and sins" until he turns to Christ by grace through faith when he hears the Gospel in the power of the Spirit. Once a man believes Christ for salvation, his spirit is now indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives back to our spirit the ability to know God through Christ, and He never leaves us, not even in death. The life we receive from the Spirit of God through Christ never dies. The Spirit remains in us until our natural body too is resurrected and changed.

Do you not think that we are made up of body, spirit and soul? It is our spirits and souls that go to heaven when we die. I don't know where you get the idea that "we go to heaven as spirit body when our natural body dies" because that isn't stated anywhere in scripture.

Paul states it in 1Cor 15. I've already shown the passage. It is Paul, not I, that tells us there is a natural body and a spiritual body and that the two are not the same. The one is of the earth, earthy, natural physical man, the other Christ from heaven, a quickening SPIRIT. Paul shows us our body is sown in the earth, but our spirit quickened by Christ then bears the image of the heavenly.

So our natural body is sown in dishonor and corruption and raised a spiritual body, because there is a natural body and a spiritual body. Then Paul shows us how and when our natural body too will be raised and changed when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Where does he say that this happens immediately upon death? I see him as saying this will happen when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

He states it plainly in 1Co 15, and says in other places that when he is absent from his body, he will be present with the Lord. Paul knows that Christ is in heaven, and he also knows that his body returns to dust after death. So what do you believe Paul thought would be with the Lord in heaven when he dies if not his spirit/soul.

Do you think our spirit can't exist outside of a body or something? And that's why you think it is upon death that we have a spiritual body that goes to heaven?

Where do you think the spirit after death goes if not to heaven?

Natural body united with a spiritual body? It does not say that anywhere. Instead, Paul taught that our natural, mortal bodies will be changed into spiritual, immortal bodies.

It is only by having both body and spirit that man becomes a living soul.

If they had spiritual bodies wouldn't he have said he saw their bodies? I believe so. Anyway, this isn't a topic we need to discuss any further. The timing of when we will have spiritual bodies isn't really that important, I suppose. The important thing is that we will one day have spiritual bodies that can never die and we agree on that.

Our natural body never goes to heaven. I believe we will one day have immortal bodies, endowed with eternal spirit and be complete living soul.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Our natural mortal, corruptible will be made immortal and without corruption when it is resurrected and changed. But our natural body is not our spirit. Our body houses our spirit. The breath of life that God breathes into mankind is our spirit life.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise. We are made up of body, soul and spirit. I never even remotely suggested that our natural body is our spirit.

Paul states it in 1Cor 15. I've already shown the passage. It is Paul, not I, that tells us there is a natural body and a spiritual body and that the two are not the same.

When did I say they are the same? I didn't. I'm saying that our natural, corruptible, mortal, dishonorable, weak body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible, immortal, honorable and powerful body at the last trumpet. I feel like I'm being clear in what I'm saying, but you're clearly not getting it for whatever reason. We agree on a lot of things, so I can be okay with us disagreeing on this one thing.

Where do you think the spirit after death goes if not to heaven?

It goes to heaven. When did I say otherwise? This again shows that you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Our natural body never goes to heaven.

Of course not. Did you think I believed it will? That is not what I'm saying at all.

I believe we will one day have immortal bodies, endowed with eternal spirit and be complete living soul.

I'm realizing now where the disconnect is coming from. At least I think so. You see us only as only having a spirit and a body and that together makes us a living soul. But, scripture teaches that we are made up of not only a spirit and a body, but also a soul. That's why John said he saw the souls of dead Christian martyrs. He saw a part of them which is called the soul.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Can you see here how we not only have a spirit and body, but also a soul? So, when Revelation talks about John seeing the souls of the dead in Christ it's not saying he is seeing people/souls with body and spirit, it's saying he saw their souls.

 

[rwb]

Of course. I didn't say otherwise. We are made up of body, soul and spirit. I never even remotely suggested that our natural body is our spirit. So, I'm going to end this particular discussion now because it's clear to me that you're not seeing my point and I don't feel like spending any more time trying to explain it to you.

When did I say they are the same? I didn't. I'm saying that our natural, corruptible, mortal, dishonorable, weak body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible, immortal, honorable and powerful body at the last trumpet. I feel like I'm being clear in what I'm saying, but you're clearly not getting it, so there's no point in continuing this particular discussion. We agree on a lot of things, so I can be okay with us disagreeing on this one thing.

I'm obviously not making my point clear, because you are not understanding me. Our natural body that will be made immortal and incorruptible never becomes spiritual. Our bodies resurrected and changed will never die and never grow old, sick or weak. It will always be the body that houses our spirit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you have done sort of gnostic ability to determine this?

I believe I have spiritual discernment and eyes to see what's going on in the world.

And no, I don’t think we have a majority. But our percentages keep going up.

And what is this based on? What percentage of the world currently would you guess are Christians?

That would be fine except the word pictures painted don’t show that.

Maybe you are taking the word pictures a bit too literally? Yes, I think so.

Scripture doesn’t teach that.

Sure, it does. What do you think Revelation 20:9 is about? It's clearly something that occurs on the last day of this earth as we know it and it involves many unsaved people being killed. Just like 2nd Peter 3:10-12.

70 AD

Jesus was talking about finding faith on the earth. So, He was talking about a global event. What does that have to do with 70 AD?

70 AD

No, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 is certainly not about 70 AD. It's about His coming and our being gathered to Him. Which means it's about the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 which has clearly not yet happened.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm obviously not making my point clear, because you are not understanding me.

That is how I feel as well since you're not understanding me, so let's just agree to disagree on this and move on.

Our natural body that will be made immortal and incorruptible never becomes spiritual.

In my view it has to become spiritual in order to be immortal. A natural body is mortal and can't be made immortal while still being a natural body. The whole reason it's called a natural body is because it's natural for the bodies we have now to be mortal and corruptible.

Our bodies resurrected and changed will never die and never grow old, sick or weak. It will always be the body that houses our spirit.

I didn't say otherwise. We need to just end this particular discussion now because it's getting a bit frustrating that we're not understanding each other's points.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”.

This passage indicates that it is expected that there will not be many true believers on the earth when Jesus comes. That lines up with what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 about a mass falling away from the faith occurring just prior to the return of Christ.

The question Christ posed was concerning "the earth", as I underlined it above - meaning (tes ges) the land of Israel in particular. Most want to interpret this as the Son of Man not finding faith in the entire world (which would have used another term like "oikoumenes" instead).

Israel at the (AD 70) return of Christ was going to have only a "remnant" which would be children of faith. This was what the prophet Isaiah had predicted. Although the number of the children of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, yet only a "remnant" would be saved (Isaiah 10:22-23). Paul picked up on this reference to a reserved, Israelite believing remnant in Romans 9:27-29, and applied it to his own generation of Jews in Romans 11:5. "Even so then at the present time there remaineth a remnant according to the election of grace."

This "remnant" situation for Israel was for a specific time period only, and for that specific nation in particular, and was not predictive of the entire world at the close of fallen humanity's existence on this planet. God promised and then designed His kingdom to grow slowly among all the nations, and to keep increasing in numbers all the way until the final judgment and resurrection.

 

[Hammster]

I believe I have spiritual discernment and eyes to see what's going on in the world.

Okay. I’ll stick with scripture.

And what is this based on? What percentage of the world currently would you guess are Christians?

Scripture. And I don’t know the percentage.

Maybe you are taking the word pictures a bit too literally? Yes, I think so.

lol. No, literally would be thinking that it’s an actual stone that will grow into a mountain. But saying a mountain that fills the whole earth is understanding that if a stone can defeat four kingdoms, something much larger can conquer the whole world.

Sure, it does. What do you think Revelation 20:9 is about? It's clearly something that occurs on the last day of this earth as we know it and it involves many unsaved people being killed. Just like 2nd Peter 3:10-12.

Maybe you are taking that too literally.

That’s still first century.

Jesus was talking about finding faith on the earth. So, He was talking about a global event. What does that have to do with 70 AD?

Actually, it’s finding faith in the land. So it fits with the destruction of Jerusalem.

No, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 is certainly not about 70 AD. It's about His coming and our being gathered to Him. Which means it's about the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 which has clearly not yet happened.

It’s actually about Christ’s judgement in the first century, and it has happened.

 

[rwb]

That is how I feel as well since you're not understanding me, so let's just agree to disagree on this and move on.

In my view it has to become spiritual in order to be immortal. A natural body is mortal and can't be made immortal while still being a natural body. The whole reason it's called a natural body is because it's natural for the bodies we have now to be mortal and corruptible

I didn't say otherwise. We need to just end this particular discussion now because it's getting a bit frustrating that we're not understanding each other's points.

Hope you won't mind one more question. When you say our natural body becomes immortal, incorruptible, and spiritual, do you mean our natural body will then have supernatural power?

One other additional thought. Human beings consist of body and spirit, and those two things together become a living soul. When Paul prays our whole spirit soul and body be preserved blameless, he is praying for our physical body, our mind, heart, will etc. (inner spirit), our entire being (soul) be preserved blameless unto the coming of Christ. In other words that we remain strong and faithful to the end.

 

[Timtofly]

There is not a single verse in all of Scripture that tells us Christ reigns ON this earth, because He reigns, not on, but OVER the earth, and has been reigning over the earth since He ascended to heaven and received the Kingdom.

This is not true. There is not a verse that combines 1,000 and on earth. Revelation 20 states 1,000. 1 Corinthians 15:24 states on the earth after His coming. The end cometh 1,000 years after the Second Coming. The Second Coming has been 1992 years after Christ the firstfruits. Paul did not give us a time frame. He gave us the order. The Cross, the Second Coming, and then the end. The Second Coming is not the end. The GWT is the end.

You just deny the period between the Coming and the end. You place it between the Cross and the Second Coming. Paul did not say the end cometh and the kingdom is handed back and then His Second Coming. Nor did he state any reigning. The point is the reigning has been non-stop, the gathering is 3 separate points.

When Jesus comes the second time, the point is to remain on earth until the end. John confirms this with Revelation 20.

"they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

No where is it stated over the earth either. There is no Scriptural monopoly on the reign of Christ. One has to make up stuff about the use of 1,000 to remove John's point, and eradicate it from Scripture.

When you stop believing there will be one thousand literal years after Christ has come again, then there is no difficulty understanding this passage. It is after the thousand years, symbolizing TIME on this earth that Satan is loosed, gathers his minions, likened to Gog and Magog and hopes to finally do away with the full body of Christ (Church) still alive on the earth, when fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them all. It is during this age of TIME that people must willingly partake of the first resurrection (the resurrection of Christ), or be counted among Gog and Magog.

Gog is a symbolic name for antichrist, and Magog symbolizing an antichristian party/group/many people. The fire coming down from heaven is universal, and will burn up not only the earth, but also all who are still alive on it.

This is way more convoluted than simply stating, "They ruled and reigned for 1,000 years."

I don't "believe" there will be 1,000 years, so how could I stop believing. Crazy how some recommend to stop believing God's Word, though. If I stop believing that Jesus died on the Cross, would that change all the verses that state that point? Certainly I won't, but a lot of people do not believe that. Did you mean to say, "Revelation 20 would make more sense if we removed the words "1,000 years" and just concentrated on the ruling and reigning part"? Because you making it say whatever you think it should say instead of what it actually says makes sense how?

You do realize that I am not forcing those words in Revelation 20, "for 1,000 years" to say or mean anything else than the actual words?

If we must partake of Christ in life, and that time for salvation is now, after Christ comes again, and there is no one else that can be saved, what it the purpose for another literal thousand years? Even if you believe, as some do, that it is for the Jews to come to Christ, why, since it is too late to partake of the first resurrection and be saved?

The purpose of the 1,000 years is to have 1,000 years without Adam's sin and death on the earth.

What is the purpose of the last 6,000 years of sin and death?

Adam had his time of sin. Now you question why Christ should reign on earth for 1,000 years without a sin nature and rebellion and death? It is not even that it needs to happen. It is simply stated that it will happen.

You did notice that this 1,000 years starts out with a resurrection? The point about no one left is the point. There will be none of Adam's flesh and blood living on the earth. That was the point of the last 6,000 years. Why not be surprised God did not say 6,000 years or 7,000 years? Why even deny 1,000 years? Certainly God has been longsuffering and patient. Or are you one that sees God as cruel and unjust for Adam's flesh and blood to even suffer this amount of time?

 

[rwb]

This is not true. There is not a verse that combines 1,000 and on earth. Revelation 20 states 1,000. 1 Corinthians 15:24 states on the earth after His coming. The end cometh 1,000 years after the Second Coming. The Second Coming has been 1992 years after Christ the firstfruits. Paul did not give us a time frame. He gave us the order. The Cross, the Second Coming, and then the end. The Second Coming is not the end. The GWT is the end.

Where does Scripture say there will be another thousand literal years after Christ returns to earth the second and final time?

You just deny the period between the Coming and the end. You place it between the Cross and the Second Coming. Paul did not say the end cometh and the kingdom is handed back and then His Second Coming. Nor did he state any reigning. The point is the reigning has been non-stop, the gathering is 3 separate points.

What I affirm is that Christ has come to earth once, and He will return once more on the last day, when the final trumpet sounds and time will be no more. A thousand years equates to time that ends with the seventh and final trumpet.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When Jesus comes the second time, the point is to remain on earth until the end. John confirms this with Revelation 20.

"they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

No where is it stated over the earth either. There is no Scriptural monopoly on the reign of Christ. One has to make up stuff about the use of 1,000 to remove John's point, and eradicate it from Scripture.

Christ received the Kingdom when He ascended to the Ancient of Days after His resurrection. He has been reigning from heaven over His Kingdom since that time.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The purpose of the 1,000 years is to have 1,000 years without Adam's sin and death on the earth.

What would be the purpose for a thousand years? That doesn't make any sense??? Once sin and death are no more, we will live with Christ throughout eternity on the new earth. So you need to explain why there would still be this TIME of a thousand years once Christ has come the second and final time????

What is the purpose of the last 6,000 years of sin and death?

It's purpose is to redeem whosoever believes! It's called redemptive history. Christ came to seek and to save His lost. He does that throughout TIME, which is what a thousand years symbolizes. But the thousand years equates to TIME between Christ first coming and His coming again.

You did notice that this 1,000 years starts out with a resurrection? The point about no one left is the point. There will be none of Adam's flesh and blood living on the earth. That was the point of the last 6,000 years. Why not be surprised God did not say 6,000 years or 7,000 years? Why even deny 1,000 years? Certainly God has been longsuffering and patient. Or are you one that sees God as cruel and unjust for Adam's flesh and blood to even suffer this amount of time?

John shows us the thousand years has already begun when he sees the martyred souls of saints alive and reigning with Christ in heaven. The second death has no power over them because in life they had part in the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of Christ. John writes that only those who partake of Christ's resurrection in life, (the first resurrection) will reign with Christ after death, and they will never die again.

 

[rwb]

In Rev 20 John sees life in heaven for those who died in faith on earth. That is what seeing souls equals. John does not see complete humans, but only souls that are still alive when they should be dead, because they were beheaded. In the vision John is given to understand that life (souls) still exist even after physical death for those of faith.

To be a living soul without a body indicates having the breath of life (spirit) from God still present after physical death. The soul alive indicates the breath of life from God. These martyred souls still possess that breath of life, which is spirit (intellect; mind) through the Spirit of God in them. Without the life giving Spirit, man simply physically dies having no life at all until the last day when they will hear Christ calling them from the grave to stand before God in Judgment.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Okay. I’ll stick with scripture.

But, apparently, not all scripture.

Scripture. And I don’t know the percentage.

How long do you think it will be until most of the world is saved? At the rate it's going it seems like it would take quite a long time.

lol. No, literally would be thinking that it’s an actual stone that will grow into a mountain. But saying a mountain that fills the whole earth is understanding that if a stone can defeat four kingdoms, something much larger can conquer the whole world.
Maybe you are taking that too literally.

Congratulations on missing the point. Well done. Of course I didn't mean you were taking it literally in the way you're talking about. I was saying you're taking it literally in terms of seeing a description of a mountain filling the whole earth and thinking that means everyone on earth will become saved rather than recognizing that it's talking about some people being saved in all parts of the earth.

Actually, it’s finding faith in the land. So it fits with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why would Jesus have been questioning if He would find faith in Jerusalem in 70 AD? He talked about the need for those who had faith to flee into the mountains at that time, so He clearly believed that there would be some who had faith at that time. So, I don't buy this argument whatsoever.

It’s actually about Christ’s judgement in the first century, and it has happened.

What judgment? Against the Jews in Jerusalem? 2nd Thess 2 clearly has nothing to do with that. It has to do with His coming and our being gathered to Him. You seem to be ignoring that. What gathering to Christ occurred in 70 AD? It's clearly a reference to the same event that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Do you think 1 Thess 4:14-17 is already fulfilled?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The question Christ posed was concerning "the earth", as I underlined it above - meaning (tes ges) the land of Israel in particular. Most want to interpret this as the Son of Man not finding faith in the entire world (which would have used another term like "oikoumenes" instead).

Israel at the (AD 70) return of Christ was going to have only a "remnant" which would be children of faith. This was what the prophet Isaiah had predicted. Although the number of the children of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, yet only a "remnant" would be saved (Isaiah 10:22-23). Paul picked up on this reference to a reserved, Israelite believing remnant in Romans 9:27-29, and applied it to his own generation of Jews in Romans 11:5. "Even so then at the present time there remaineth a remnant according to the election of grace."

So, why would Jesus question if He would find faith in Israel when He surely would have known that a remnant would have faith? That makes no sense. I'm not buying this argument whatsoever.

The reason that Jesus would question whether He will find faith on the earth when He returns is because He surely knew about the mass falling away that would occur just before His return, as Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2. I see that time period as being the same as Satan's little season that occurs just before Christ's return during which a number of people "as the sand of the sea" throughout the world actively oppose the church with the goal of destroying it.