This generation

[Zao is life]

Several of my examples were written by scholars, so you are not correct.

John Gill (scholar)

Johann Bengel (scholar)

expositors Greek testament was written by scholars.

Your deflecting my earlier question. Again, I cannot find any serious scholarship that agrees with your position of understanding. Are you able to provide any?

You have not answered the question: Do those commenters you quoted state that Christ has already returned, or do they state that Christ will return at the end of this Age? @claninja The onus is on you to produce the answer, because I never brought up specific extra-biblical scholars and what they said - you did. So demanding that I produce any sources outside of the Bible is not something I will or need to comply with. But you should comply with the answer to this question because you quoted these sources, not me. So the onus is on you.

Anyway the biblical facts in post #1480 are proof for those who want it that the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is not referring to the temple in Jerusalem (but not for those whose faith is in their eschatology).

 

[Zao is life]

If death has been defeated, then you must believe that all of Christ’s other enemies are under His feet. And, the kingdom has been given to the Father.

You will have to give an explanation of the second part of Hebrews 2:8 (because your statement above implies that you believe that it means something other than what it says).

Hebrews 2
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So what do we see now?

 

[Hammster]

You will have to give an explanation of the second part of Hebrews 2:8 (because your statement above implies that you believe that it means something other than what it says).

Hebrews 2
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So what do we see now?

That verse aligns with my view. Not all of His enemies are under His feet. And since that’s true, death still needs to be ultimately defeated.

 

[Zao is life]

When we have been quickened in life through the life giving Spirit, when we are absent from our mortal body, we will be present with the Lord a spiritual body in heaven.

Quickened in life, to die no more: Quicken - 2227. ζωοποιέω zoopoieo (zōopoiéō)
to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):—make alive, give life, quicken.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Well we'll have to agree to disagree in the above and your previous post. Christ is in us and we are in Him. Before the death and resurrection of Christ it was impossible for anyone to be quickened by His Spirit, so we see the souls of those who had fallen asleep (and who had no doubt believed God like Abraham did), in the bosom of Abraham, in the Lord's parable.

But we are already in Christ, and we are already seated with Him where He is, and we do not have to die physically first in order to have that position, because baptism into Christ = baptism into His death and being raised with Him (with His death and with His resurrection).

We do not need to wait for physical death to be resurrected in a spiritual body in order for the above to be the case. But there is not one verse that I listed in my post (all the verses in the New Testament) speaking about the resurrection that is not talking about the resurrection of the body in the day the body is raised a spiritual body. When we die we will be with Christ because we are already in Him and He in us.

But obviously we don't agree because I have not been convinced by the reasons or reasoning you gave, so we obviously won't agree.

I won't debate it with @sovereigngrace because we already did, never agreed, and it's also obvious to me that Amillennialists must interpret Revelation 20's reference to the resurrection that way. I don't agree with @sovereigngrace's reasoning for what he says about that either.

I don't mind leaving it at agreeing to disagree. I'd prefer it that way because if I'm not convinced by your reasoning at step 1, I won't be at step 2 either. That's said with a friendly disposition not with an unfriendly one

 

[Zao is life]

That verse aligns with my view. Not all of His enemies are under His feet. And since that’s true, death still needs to be ultimately defeated.

So what happened to death when Jesus rose again from the dead?

 

[claninja]

Yes it does. because it proves that they entered the church of Christ, New Jerusalem.

And anyway, verse 52: "the graves were opened" is considered spurious by almost every Bible translator and should be ignored.

Attempting to cut a verse out of the Bible and label it as “spurious” just because it doesn’t agree with your position isn’t an argument.


Appealing to revelation, a highly symbolic, metaphorical, and apocalyptic book, doesn’t address Matthew 27:53.

 

[claninja]

You have not answered the question: Do those commenters you quoted state that Christ has already returned, or do they state that Christ will return at the end of this Age?

answered in post 1477.

you still have provided no evidence that your view is supported by any serious scholarship

 

[claninja]

As you know, whether or not you agree with something doesn't make it true. So IMO your "statements" about this are meaningless. Just statements, without support. You haven't provided the necessary support.

Here are the Biblical facts that torpedo your faith in your assertions with regard to the holy place in Matthew 24:15:

THE HOLY CITY AND THE HOLY PLACE

1. The holy city

The word holy in the biblical sense means “set apart unto God” or “consecrated unto God”.

There is no city mentioned in the Revelation other than:-

(i) New Jerusalem; and

(ii) Babylon the Great, or the city"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

There is no verse in the Revelation where Babylon the Great is called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city three times:- Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

* Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city.

* The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

Here are all the verses in the New Testament referring to the holy city:-

(i) Before the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 4:5 Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city and set Him upon a pinnacle of the Temple.

(ii) After the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 27:53 After His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

(iii) The four remaining references to the holy city are in the Revelation (already mentioned above).

This means that the New Testament is identifying only New Jerusalem as the holy city following the death and resurrection of Christ. It does the same with the Greek word employed to denote the place of the holy presence (naós):

The Greek word hierón is used in reference to the physical temple complex in Jerusalem. But the word naós is used:-

-- for the holy place in the Jerusalem temple complex --:

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5; John 2:20; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

-- for the body of Christ --:

(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29)

-- in the verses telling of the tearing of the veil -- *:

Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

* The last time the word naós is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses which talk about the tearing of the veil (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). After this, the first time the word is used again is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

Compare the above two verses with:

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

From then on the word naós is only used for:

-- the bodies of individual believers, the church, & the temple in heaven --

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

Therefore since the temple in Jerusalem is not considered the place of the holy presence of God (the holy place) following the tearing of the veil, the reader is given everything he needs in order to understand what the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is referring to (especially since it's linked to Matthew 24:9-14 and everything that follows through Matthew 24:31).

not really interested in debating something, such as your position on the temple in Matthew 24:15 being metaphorical for the church, that has no scholarly support. Unless you are willing to provide?


Now, back to “this generation”


Do you deny the apostles’ generation experienced persecution, famine, earthquake, wars, false prophets, those falling away from the church, and the gospel going to the known world?

 

[Zao is life]

not really interested in debating something, such as your position on the temple in Matthew 24:15 being metaphorical for the church, that has no scholarly support. Unless you are willing to provide?


Now, back to “this generation”


Do you deny the apostles’ generation experienced persecution, famine, earthquake, wars, false prophets, those falling away from the church, and the gospel going to the known world?

You pretend that the fact that Christians in the first century faced the above things means that Christians in the last century before Christ won't experience similar things, nor did any other Christians of any generation, just so that you can pretend that what is written can apply only to the first century.

What New Testament verse proves that the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is referring to the Old Testament temple? I've provided proof that it's referencing the New Testament temple, which you ignore and brush aside rather arrogantly.

Please stop deflecting in order to avoid all things that negate your position.

Also, your posts contain a rather arrogant tone nowadays. Please don't use @Hammster as your armor and arrogance as your arrows. Not nice.

 

[Zao is life]

answered in post 1477.

you still have provided no evidence that your view is supported by any serious scholarship

The very fact that most of the church supports Christ coming at the end of the Age (the Age being this current Age that we are living in) in bodily form, is already abundant evidence.

Anyway I've already told you I'm not interested in the writing of extra-biblical authors. You still have provided no proof from the New Testament of anything you assert, and conveniently you ignore all the New Testament evidence I have provided that the holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15 refers to the New Testament temple.

 

[Hammster]

So what happened to death when Jesus rose again from the dead?

Nothing happened to physical death. People still die.

 

[Zao is life]

Nothing happened to physical death. People still die.

OK so Jesus did not rise from physical death?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree in the above and your previous post. Christ is in us and we are in Him. Before the death and resurrection of Christ it was impossible for anyone to be quickened by His Spirit, so we see the souls of those who had fallen asleep (and who had no doubt believed God like Abraham did), in the bosom of Abraham, in the Lord's parable.

But we are already in Christ, and we are already seated with Him where He is, and we do not have to die physically first in order to have that position, because baptism into Christ = baptism into His death and being raised with Him (with His death and with His resurrection).

We do not need to wait for physical death to be resurrected in a spiritual body in order for the above to be the case. But there is not one verse that I listed in my post (all the verses in the New Testament) speaking about the resurrection that is not talking about the resurrection of the body in the day the body is raised a spiritual body. When we die we will be with Christ because we are already in Him and He in us.

But obviously we don't agree because I have not been convinced by the reasons or reasoning you gave, so we obviously won't agree.

I won't debate it with @sovereigngrace because we already did, never agreed, and it's also obvious to me that Amillennialists must interpret Revelation 20's reference to the resurrection that way. I don't agree with @sovereigngrace's reasoning for what he says about that either.

I don't mind leaving it at agreeing to disagree. I'd prefer it that way because if I'm not convinced by your reasoning at step 1, I won't be at step 2 either. That's said with a friendly disposition not with an unfriendly one

Saying you disagree doesn't cut it. You avoided all the different passages I presented that forbid your argument. They rebut the idea that 100% of the New Testament resurrection passages teach the resurrection is physical. I refer you back to them.

 

[Hammster]

OK so Jesus did not rise from physical death?

Yes, and people still die.


Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
— Revelation 2:10-11

 

[Zao is life]

Saying you disagree doesn't cut it. You avoided all the different passages I presented that forbid your argument. They rebut the idea that 100% of the New Testament resurrection passages teach the resurrection is physical. I refer you back to them.

Yes but you've also in the past avoided all the different passages I presented that forbid your argument. They rebut the idea that 100% of the New Testament resurrection passages do not teach the resurrection is physical.

KEY VERSES

John 2
19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise [ἐγείρω egeírō] it up.
20 Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up [ἐγείρω egeírō] in three days?
21 But He spoke of the temple of His body [σῶμα sōma].

Colossians 3
1 If then you were raised with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has risen [ἐγείρω egeírō] from the dead [νεκρός nekrós], and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection [ἀνάστασις anástasis] of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the last Adam) all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton].
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Spiritual regeneration through spiritual birth from above by the Spirit is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body:

Just as new birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above relates to Spirit (πνεῦμα pneûma), without exception every passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection relates to the dead body [σῶμα sōma]:

"That which is gennáō (born) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is gennáō (born) of pneûma (the Spirit) is pneûma.” (John 3:6).

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life."

1 Peter 1:3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has begotten us again to a living hope (Greek: záō elpís) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

A. The word translated into "begotten us again" in the above verse is anagennáō. It's a combination of the words gennáō (beget) and aná (again):

B. Living hope (záō elpís): The word záō means to live, and the word elpís means to anticipate:

Just as Adam became a living soul when God breathed life into Him, so those who are born of the Spirit from above are now spiritually alive, and live in the hope (anticipation) of their bodily resurrection from the dead, which comes by Christ's resurrection from the dead.

This is confirmed again by Paul in Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit".

The word "regeneration" in the above verse is a translation of the Greek word palingenesía [StrongsGreek G03824]. It's a combination of the words pálin (anew) and génesis (i.e generation).

Thayer's dictionary:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration.

The word is also found in Matthew 19:28:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Those who have been born of the Spirit from above are in Christ, who died in the flesh and was raised again from the dead, therefore those who are baptized by the Spirit of God into Christ (through new birth) have therefore also died with Christ and are raised with Christ (because they are now in Christ, and He in them):

"If you then be risen with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1).

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5).

It's totally obvious that Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection:

First (Greek) πρῶτον prōton:-

Acts 26:23
"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first (πρῶτον prōton) that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (πρῶτον prōton) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Just as it's 100% clear in the New Testament that spiritual regeneration is through the spiritual birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above by the Spirit and is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body with (synegeírō) Christ’s resurrection, so it's also 100% clear that without exception every passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection is unambiguously talking about the resurrection of the body [σῶμα sōma] from the dead.

The term "spiritual resurrection" does not apply to any verse in the New Testament talking about the resurrection:-

Matthew 22:23; Matthew 22:30; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18; Mark 12:23; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:27; Luke 20:33; Luke 20:35-36; Matthew 22:28; Matthew 27:52-53; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; Luke 7:14; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 9:25; Luke 8:54; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 16:21; Luke 9:22; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 26:32; Mark 14:28; Matthew 27:63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; Mark 16:14; Mark 6:14, Mark 6:16; Luke 9:7; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, John 12:9; John 12:17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24; Acts 2:31-32; Acts 3:15; Acts 3:26; Acts 4:1-2; Acts 4:10; Acts 4:33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30; Acts 13:33-37; Acts 17:18, Acts 17:31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15; Acts 24:21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:4-6.

Jesus' own doctrine on the resurrection:

John 6:39, 40 & 44 ἀνίστημι anístēmi: "And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] again at the last day."

John 11:23-25 ἀνίστημι anístēmi, ἀνάστασις anástasis:
“Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again. Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.”

Paul's doctrine regarding the Resurrection from the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:4; 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57.

Christ is the first resurrection, and He IS the resurrection and the Life:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years."

If Revelation 20:4-6 is not referring to a 'spiritual' resurrection, but to the resurrection of the body (which is what all other New Testament verses talking about the resurrection are unambiguously referring to), then unless this resurrection took place after the death of Nero on June 9th, A.D 68 (or at some other point in history), it's still coming, because worshiping the beast and his image and receiving his mark on the forehead or in the hand is only written about in two passages: Revelation 13:12-18 and Revelation 20:4.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes but you've also in the past avoided all the different passages I presented that forbid your argument. They rebut the idea that 100% of the New Testament resurrection passages do not teach the resurrection is physical.

KEY VERSES

John 2
19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise [ἐγείρω egeírō] it up.
20 Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up [ἐγείρω egeírō] in three days?
21 But He spoke of the temple of His body [σῶμα sōma].

Colossians 3
1 If then you were raised with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has risen [ἐγείρω egeírō] from the dead [νεκρός nekrós], and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection [ἀνάστασις anástasis] of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the last Adam) all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton].
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Spiritual regeneration through spiritual birth from above by the Spirit is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body:

Just as new birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above relates to Spirit (πνεῦμα pneûma), without exception every passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection relates to the dead body [σῶμα sōma]:

"That which is gennáō (born) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is gennáō (born) of pneûma (the Spirit) is pneûma.” (John 3:6).

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life."

1 Peter 1:3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has begotten us again to a living hope (Greek: záō elpís) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

A. The word translated into "begotten us again" in the above verse is anagennáō. It's a combination of the words gennáō (beget) and aná (again):

B. Living hope (záō elpís): The word záō means to live, and the word elpís means to anticipate:

Just as Adam became a living soul when God breathed life into Him, so those who are born of the Spirit from above are now spiritually alive, and live in the hope (anticipation) of their bodily resurrection from the dead, which comes by Christ's resurrection from the dead.

This is confirmed again by Paul in Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit".

The word "regeneration" in the above verse is a translation of the Greek word palingenesía [StrongsGreek G03824]. It's a combination of the words pálin (anew) and génesis (i.e generation).

Thayer's dictionary:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration.

The word is also found in Matthew 19:28:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Those who have been born of the Spirit from above are in Christ, who died in the flesh and was raised again from the dead, therefore those who are baptized by the Spirit of God into Christ (through new birth) have therefore also died with Christ and are raised with Christ (because they are now in Christ, and He in them):

"If you then be risen with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1).

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5).

It's totally obvious that Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection:

First (Greek) πρῶτον prōton:-

Acts 26:23
"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first (πρῶτον prōton) that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (πρῶτον prōton) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Just as it's 100% clear in the New Testament that spiritual regeneration is through the spiritual birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above by the Spirit and is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body with (synegeírō) Christ’s resurrection, so it's also 100% clear that without exception every passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection is unambiguously talking about the resurrection of the body [σῶμα sōma] from the dead.

The term "spiritual resurrection" does not apply to any verse in the New Testament talking about the resurrection:-

Matthew 22:23; Matthew 22:30; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18; Mark 12:23; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:27; Luke 20:33; Luke 20:35-36; Matthew 22:28; Matthew 27:52-53; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; Luke 7:14; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 9:25; Luke 8:54; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 16:21; Luke 9:22; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 26:32; Mark 14:28; Matthew 27:63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; Mark 16:14; Mark 6:14, Mark 6:16; Luke 9:7; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, John 12:9; John 12:17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24; Acts 2:31-32; Acts 3:15; Acts 3:26; Acts 4:1-2; Acts 4:10; Acts 4:33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30; Acts 13:33-37; Acts 17:18, Acts 17:31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15; Acts 24:21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:4-6.

Jesus' own doctrine on the resurrection:

John 6:39, 40 & 44 ἀνίστημι anístēmi: "And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] again at the last day."

John 11:23-25 ἀνίστημι anístēmi, ἀνάστασις anástasis:
“Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again. Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.”

Paul's doctrine regarding the Resurrection from the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:4; 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57.

Christ is the first resurrection, and He IS the resurrection and the Life:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years."

If Revelation 20:4-6 is not referring to a 'spiritual' resurrection, but to the resurrection of the body (which is what all other New Testament verses talking about the resurrection are unambiguously referring to), then unless this resurrection took place after the death of Nero on June 9th, A.D 68 (or at some other point in history), it's still coming, because worshiping the beast and his image and receiving his mark on the forehead or in the hand is only written about in two passages: Revelation 13:12-18 and Revelation 20:4.

Firstly, none of this rebuts anything Amils believe. Amils believe in spiritual regeneration through spiritual birth. But regeneration involves a spiritual resurrection which causes a spiritual new birth. That is undeniable from studying Scripture. But an unregenerate man is spiritually dead. For someone to move from death unto life requires resurrection (whether natural or spiritual). The human being’s spirit is dead toward the things of God. before conversion. Man from the fall has been imprisoned in darkness and the grave. He needs God’s help to release him. That part of him that fell in the fall and which was in perfect communion with God was turned around in the opposite direction to be at total enmity with Him. Without a resurrection the spiritual man within us remains at total variance to God. That spirit needs quickened and brought back into union and communion with God. This only occurs through spiritual resurrection. In the new birth a person's spirit is made alive (by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit) which involves a spiritual resurrection from death to life. You duck around this in your posts and divert unto irrelevancies. Please address this. The Scriptures I give support this and rebut your claims.

Secondly, Jesus physical resurrection is the first resurrection.

Finally, Amils believe in a future physical resurrection and the one and only future resurrection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If Revelation 20:4-6 is not referring to a 'spiritual' resurrection, but to the resurrection of the body (which is what all other New Testament verses talking about the resurrection are unambiguously referring to), then unless this resurrection took place after the death of Nero on June 9th, A.D 68 (or at some other point in history), it's still coming, because worshiping the beast and his image and receiving his mark on the forehead or in the hand is only written about in two passages: Revelation 13:12-18 and Revelation 20:4.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[Zao is life]

Firstly, none of this rebuts anything Amils believe. Amils believe in spiritual regeneration through spiritual birth. But regeneration involves a spiritual resurrection which causes a spiritual new birth. That is undeniable from studying Scripture. But an unregenerate man is spiritually dead. For someone to move from death unto life requires resurrection (whether natural or spiritual). The human being’s spirit is dead toward the things of God. before conversion. Man from the fall has been imprisoned in darkness and the grave. He needs God’s help to release him. That part of him that fell in the fall and which was in perfect communion with God was turned around in the opposite direction to be at total enmity with Him. Without a resurrection the spiritual man within us remains at total variance to God. That spirit needs quickened and brought back into union and communion with God. This only occurs through spiritual resurrection. In the new birth a person's spirit is made alive (by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit) which involves a spiritual resurrection from death to life. You duck around this in your posts and divert unto irrelevancies. Please address this. The Scriptures I give support this and rebut your claims.

Secondly, Jesus physical resurrection is the first resurrection.

Finally, Amils believe in a future physical resurrection and the one and only future resurrection.

The spirit of a man that is born from above of the Spirit of God was not a dead spirit that got resurrected through being quickened by the spirit. Each human born into the world is body and soul. No spirit until birth from above by the Spirit of God. Adam's spiritual death did not beget spiritually dead spirits.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The spirit of a man that is born from above of the Spirit of God was not a dead spirit that got resurrected through being quickened by the spirit. Each human born into the world is body and soul. No spirit until birth from above by the Spirit of God. Adam's spiritual death did not beget spiritually dead spirits.

Man is tripart - body, soul and spirit. He is made in the image of God. Whilst the ungodly have a spirit, prior to salvation, it is separated from God and dead toward the things of God. Pro 20:27 confirms: "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

The new birth is essentially the result of the restoring of the relationship between our spirits and God’s through God’s quickening and resurrection power. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us upon salvation and enables us to enter into fellowship with God, which was broken through the fall. When Scripture says we were “dead in sin” it means we were spiritually dead or dead in a spiritual sense. No one would surely argue that the concepts of being born and of being resurrected whilst being different spiritual metaphors both relate to conversion and both speak of the bringing forth of life.

The new birth (or second birth) represents the creation of new life in the individual, which wasn’t hitherto there. The element within us that prevented that life from being realized was a spirit that was at enmity to God through the fall. Before the new birth can be experienced, a spiritual resurrection must sovereignly be activated by the Lord. Man needs divine intervention to raise him from his awful spiritual condition and eternal death (the second death). The means by which God perfects this is by the first resurrection, which brings life. It is the resurrection of the spirit that causes the new birth. We are raised out of our spiritual death. Regeneration involves a spiritual resurrection which causes a spiritual new birth. That is undeniable from studying Scripture.

 

[rwb]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree in the above and your previous post. Christ is in us and we are in Him. Before the death and resurrection of Christ it was impossible for anyone to be quickened by His Spirit, so we see the souls of those who had fallen asleep (and who had no doubt believed God like Abraham did), in the bosom of Abraham, in the Lord's parable.

The Spirit prior to Pentecost was with them, but not in them. The Old Covenant faithful, like Abraham were saved by grace through faith the same way we are. The difference is that they looked forward for the Messiah to come, and save them. And He did through the power of the Spirit. I agree the Old Covenant saints went to the place of the dead for the righteous; Abraham's bosom.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The reason the Old Covenant faithful saints could not go immediately to heaven after they died is because none could go there until Christ came to defeat death by His cross and resurrection. After the cross they were not left in the place of the righteous dead, or Abraham's bosom, because Christ came by His Spirit and set those captives in death free, and took them with Him when He ascended to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 12:40 (KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

But we are already in Christ, and we are already seated with Him where He is, and we do not have to die physically first in order to have that position, because baptism into Christ = baptism into His death and being raised with Him (with His death and with His resurrection).

I agree! However if our spirit, through His Spirit in us does not go to heaven after the body dies, where is it? Death cannot, since His resurrection, keep us from being where Christ is. That's why Paul longed to be absent from his body, knowing then he would be present with the Lord in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We do not need to wait for physical death to be resurrected in a spiritual body in order for the above to be the case. But there is not one verse that I listed in my post (all the verses in the New Testament) speaking about the resurrection that is not talking about the resurrection of the body in the day the body is raised a spiritual body. When we die we will be with Christ because we are already in Him and He in us.

We don't have to be spiritually resurrected after death, because we are in life already spiritually alive through His Spirit. No, we don't wait for spiritual life, but we must still wait for our natural body to be resurrected and changed when Christ comes again. We, that is our spiritual body is what returns with Christ when He comes. What of these who have died in Jesus come with Him from heaven if not our spirit?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I don't mind leaving it at agreeing to disagree. I'd prefer it that way because if I'm not convinced by your reasoning at step 1, I won't be at step 2 either. That's said with a friendly disposition not with an unfriendly one

I understand what you're saying, and to a point I agree. However agreeing to disagree in my opinion means you may not agree with my argument, but you have failed to prove why??? I too am seeking friendly disposition. We can only give what we believe is truth, but only His Word through the Spirit can convince.