This generation

[sovereigngrace]

The Spirit prior to Pentecost was with them, but not in them. The Old Covenant faithful, like Abraham were saved by grace through faith the same way we are. The difference is that they looked forward for the Messiah to come, and save them. And He did through the power of the Spirit. I agree the Old Covenant saints went to the place of the dead for the righteous; Abraham's bosom.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The reason the Old Covenant faithful saints could not go immediately to heaven after they died is because none could go there until Christ came to defeat death by His cross and resurrection. After the cross they were not left in the place of the righteous dead, or Abraham's bosom, because Christ came by His Spirit and set those captives in death free, and took them with Him when He ascended to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 12:40 (KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



I agree! However if our spirit, through His Spirit in us does not go to heaven after the body dies, where is it? Death cannot, since His resurrection, keep us from being where Christ is. That's why Paul longed to be absent from his body, knowing then he would be present with the Lord in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



We don't have to be spiritually resurrected after death, because we are in life already spiritually alive through His Spirit. No, we don't wait for spiritual life, but we must still wait for our natural body to be resurrected and changed when Christ comes again. We, that is our spiritual body is what returns with Christ when He comes. What of these who have died in Jesus come with Him from heaven if not our spirit?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



I understand what you're saying, and to a point I agree. However agreeing to disagree in my opinion means you may not agree with my argument, but you have failed to prove why??? I too am seeking friendly disposition. We can only give what we believe is truth, but only His Word through the Spirit can convince.

Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith. Sam A. Smith succinctly says, “There is only one means of eternal salvation in history: salvation by grace, through faith in Christ” (Regeneration and Indwelling in the Old Testament).

Romans 4:3 tells us: “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:6 reiterates: “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” James 2:23 agrees, saying, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.

 

[rwb]

Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith. Sam A. Smith succinctly says, “There is only one means of eternal salvation in history: salvation by grace, through faith in Christ” (Regeneration and Indwelling in the Old Testament).

Romans 4:3 tells us: “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:6 reiterates: “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” James 2:23 agrees, saying, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.

I fully agree! However there was a difference in the ministry of the Spirit then, and now, since Pentecost. The Holy Spirit was not sent to permanently indwell believers of old. That's why we sometime read how the Spirit came upon people repeatedly in the Old Testament. It's not uncommon to read the Spirit of God coming upon and even departing from men of old, because Christ had not yet sent Him to remain within believers forever.

Nu 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Nu 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Jg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
Jg 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abi-ezer was gathered after him.
Jg 11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
Jg 14:6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
Jg 14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.
Jg 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
1Sa 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 11:6 (KJV) And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

It was because David had experienced the Spirit being cast out or departing from men of old that David prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him.

Psalm 51:11 (KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

1 Samuel 16:13 (KJV) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I fully agree! However there was a difference in the ministry of the Spirit then, and now, since Pentecost. The Holy Spirit was not sent to permanently indwell believers of old. That's why we sometime read how the Spirit came upon people repeatedly in the Old Testament. It's not uncommon to read the Spirit of God coming upon and even departing from men of old, because Christ had not yet sent Him to remain within believers forever.

Nu 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Nu 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Jg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
Jg 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abi-ezer was gathered after him.
Jg 11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
Jg 14:6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
Jg 14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.
Jg 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
1Sa 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 11:6 (KJV) And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

It was because David had experienced the Spirit being cast out or departing from men of old that David prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him.

Psalm 51:11 (KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

1 Samuel 16:13 (KJV) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I think even today there is a difference between the indwelling presence of the Spirit and the anointing that comes on men for service or ministry.

 

[rwb]

I think even today there is a difference between the indwelling presence of the Spirit and the anointing that comes on men for service or ministry.

I guess I would say that when we have the Spirit and are open to Him, then we will follow His promptings when He is guiding us toward particular service. The power to both will and do comes from God through His Spirit in believers.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[rwb]

There will never be a time on this earth where death is no more. Death will continue to be part of life until both death and the grave are cast into the LOF.

So what is death, but a total cessation of all life. Believers NEVER experience a total cessation of all life. That is what Christ means when He tells us that if we live and believe in Him we shall NEVER die. Death of the body is the means God uses to take the believer from this world into the realm of heaven spiritually alive. Bodily death for believers simply means a change of address. This is why believers need not fear death. Just because the outward shell, likened to our tent, our house, our tabernacle, and our dwelling place may be destroyed in death, does not mean our life in Christ, through His Spirit in us has ceased. This is why we can strongly affirm that believers NEVER die, just as Christ said we would not!

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Hammster]

There will never be a time on this earth where death is no more. Death will continue to be part of life until both death and the grave are cast into the LOF.

So what is death, but a total cessation of all life. Believers NEVER experience a total cessation of all life. That is what Christ means when He tells us that if we live and believe in Him we shall NEVER die. Death of the body is the means God uses to take the believer from this world into the realm of heaven spiritually alive. Bodily death for believers simply means a change of address. This is why believers need not fear death. Just because the outward shell, likened to our tent, our house, our tabernacle, and our dwelling place may be destroyed in death, does not mean our life in Christ, through His Spirit in us has ceased. This is why we can strongly affirm that believers NEVER die, just as Christ said we would not!

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
— Revelation 2:10-11

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
— 1 Corinthians 15:25-26

 

[rwb]

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
— Revelation 2:10-11

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
— 1 Corinthians 15:25-26

This is the Word of God, truer words have never been spoken. As I have said, our outward shell is not what identifies believers. If we have everlasting life through His Spirit in us, death is a means of better life, not cessation of life as it is for unbelievers. If we still have life everlasting after our outward shell perishes then we continue to live with Christ forever. Isn't is wonderful looking forward to the day of Great White Throne Judgment when unbelievers with death and the grave that hold them will finally be altogether abolished in the LOF! Amen!

 

[claninja]

You pretend that the fact that Christians in the first century faced the above things means that Christians in the last century before Christ won't experience similar things, nor did any other Christians of any generation, just so that you can pretend that what is written can apply only to the first century.

Future generations are irrelevant to my question. Im simply asking if you agree that the first century disciples’ generation did experience persecution, famine, earthquakes, war, false prophets, those falling away from the church, and the gospel going to the known world? It’s a simple yes or no.

What New Testament verse proves that the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is referring to the Old Testament temple? I've provided proof that it's referencing the New Testament temple, which you ignore and brush aside rather arrogantly.

you haven’t provided “proof”. If it was proof, you would have serious scholarship or historical support. But you don’t.

you’ve provided what you believe is evidence that supports your position through stringing together debatable interpretations on revelation, and cutting out Matthew 27:53 by labeling it as a spurious passage.

I disagree with you that the temple in the OD is metaphorical for the body of Christ. I disagree that the man of sin is the AOD. If you believe I have ignored this or brushed it aside, then it demonstrates you have NOT been reading my posts.

The very fact that most of the church supports Christ coming at the end of the Age (the Age being this current Age that we are living in) in bodily form, is already abundant evidence.

straw man argument. I’m not discussing the bodily coming of Christ at the end of this age (2nd advent)

Im discussing the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel at the end of the mosaic or old covenant age, to which I provided scholarly support that agrees, demonstrating this is not my own personal interpretation of scripture.

 

[Hammster]

This is the Word of God, truer words have never been spoken. As I have said, our outward shell is not what identifies believers. If we have everlasting life through His Spirit in us, death is a means of better life, not cessation of life as it is for unbelievers. If we still have life everlasting after our outward shell perishes then we continue to live with Christ forever. Isn't is wonderful looking forward to the day of Great White Throne Judgment when unbelievers with death and the grave that hold them will finally be altogether abolished in the LOF! Amen!

And my point from the beginning is that Christ reigns until all His enemies are defeated. Death is the final enemy. It sounds like you are promoting annihilationism, which is heretical.

 

[rwb]

And my point from the beginning is that Christ reigns until all His enemies are defeated. Death is the final enemy. It sounds like you are promoting annihilationism, which is heretical.

No one denies that Christ reigns NOW or that death is the final enemy to be destroyed. What I have been arguing is that bodily death for believers means everlasting spiritual life with Christ in heaven, not cessation of life, which is what death is for unbelievers.

As for annihilationism my only reply is that whosoever is not found in the Lamb's book of life at the Judgment Throne will be cast into eternal flames. What exactly that involves I am not sure of. Because there are verses that seem to indicate eternal suffering and others indicating eternal death.... I attempt to only promote biblical truth as I have come to understand it through searching the Scripture.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 14:1-4 (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I guess I would say that when we have the Spirit and are open to Him, then we will follow His promptings when He is guiding us toward particular service. The power to both will and do comes from God through His Spirit in believers.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I agree. But there is an empowerment that comes on the believer as in Pentecost for service.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

inconsistent interpretation.

Your argument is the same as when dispensationals claim Luke’s armies surrounding Jerusalem is not the same as Matthew and marks AOD.

Mathew, Mark, and Luke are parallel passages. the disciples’ question should be understood as the same.

Question 1
Matthew- when will these things happen,
Mark-Tell us, when will these things happen?
Luke-when will these things happen?

Question 2
Matthew-and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Mark-And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”
Luke-And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Therefore, what will be the SIGN they are about to be fulfilled? = what will be the SIGN of your coming and the end of the age?

Matthew doesn’t give any more information about the 2nd question than he does about the AOD.

That's how you see it, but in my view you have no reasonable explanation for how the end of the age occurred in 70 AD. Especially in relation to how Jesus viewed the end of the age in terms of it being the end of this temporal age during which people get married and die (Luke 20:34-36). And, in my view, you also have no viable explanation for how your understanding of the end of the age fits with what Jesus said in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50.

So, until you provide a much stronger explanation for how the end of the age could have possibly occurred in 70 AD, the type of argument you're making here holds no water as far as I'm concerned. It's clear to me that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus spoke of separate local and global events that would occur at different times in history. That can most clearly be seen in Luke 21. Luke 21:20-24 describes a local event in and around Jerusalem which occurred around 70 AD and Luke 21:25-36 describes a future global event (Christ's second coming which will result in heaven and earth passing away - just like Peter prophesied in 2nd Peter 3) that would occur when the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those are speaking of different ages. There are multiple ages throughout scripture. Context helps determine the difference.

What basis is there for thinking that the end of the age referenced in Matthew 13:47-50 is different than the end of the age referenced in Matthew 24:3? I don't think there is any. I believe that only doctrinal bias could lead someone to that conclusion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The earth we live on now is a completely different rock than pre flood?

No. What prompted you to ask that question? When I talked about the entire earth being destroyed, I was talking about the entire earth surface and not saying the earth itself was completely annihilated. Which I would think should be obvious, but I guess you need something like that spelled out to you?

 

[Timtofly]

Prove through Scripture what you allege here. Show who is given a choice after the thousand years, and in what manner this choice is given to them???

Those consumed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven are all unbelievers. They are physically burned up, bodily raised at the judgment throne of God, only to be cast into the second death, that is the LOF.



Those consumed by fire that comes down from God can never be part of the family of God. Because we read in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Either you believe what Christ says John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? or you don't. If you don't believe this promise from Christ then you deny what is plainly written.

You are viewing Revelation 20 as unbelievers vs. believers. You can assume that all day long. Does not prove anything. There is no "belief" when Christ is physically ruling on earth with an iron rod. There is either living or death. There is no living in sin, halfway between life and death.

Many do not even acknowledge that this current flesh is death. This physical existence is not life. It is living in constant sin.

Of course those people who listen to Satan after the 1,000 years have a choice. What Satan does is deceive them. But they still have a choice. The deception is that they think they have a valid reason to make that choice, not that a choice is removed because of their deception.

When Satan deceived Eve, that did not mean Eve no longer had a choice, and was forced to eat. She still had to choose to eat.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The miracle you try to work with the words the holy place is fake. You're saying Jesus never mentioned this about such an important sign: "I'm calling it the holy place now but it won't be the holy place anymore when My words are fulfilled."

It's not a miracle at all. I gave an analogy to show how my view is valid, but I wouldn't be surprised if you just ignored that.

You have the belief that Jesus's answer to the question of when the temple buildings would be destroyed is not recorded anywhere in Matthew 24 or Mark 13. I find that to be a completely unreasonable and unsupportable belief. I believe it makes no sense whatsoever. Give me one good reason why neither Matthew nor Mark would think it was worthwhile to record His answer to that question?

 

[rwb]

You are viewing Revelation 20 as unbelievers vs. believers. You can assume that all day long. Does not prove anything. There is no "belief" when Christ is physically ruling on earth with an iron rod. There is either living or death. There is no living in sin, halfway between life and death.

Many do not even acknowledge that this current flesh is death. This physical existence is not life. It is living in constant sin.

Of course those people who listen to Satan after the 1,000 years have a choice. What Satan does is deceive them. But they still have a choice. The deception is that they think they have a valid reason to make that choice, not that a choice is removed because of their deception.

When Satan deceived Eve, that did not mean Eve no longer had a choice, and was forced to eat. She still had to choose to eat.

I don't see the biblical proof I ask you to supply for the opinion that man will be able to make a choice after the thousand years have ended.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I disagree. Scripture shows us that Christ returns as victorious King, He enemies having been defeated.

How do you think it will come about that all of His enemies will be defeated?

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:23-27
The order of events show that all His enemies are defeated, except death, upon His return. His return marks the final victory, which is the victory over death.

Other scriptures, such as 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2nd Peter 3:10-12, Matthew 24:37-39 and Revelation 19:11-21 make it clear that He will defeat all of His enemies upon His return rather than all His enemies (except death) having already been defeated before His return.

The passage you quoted does not say that all His enemies except death will have already been defeated before His return. Can you explain where you are seeing that in that passage?

 

[Hammster]

What basis is there for thinking that the end of the age referenced in Matthew 13:47-50 is different than the end of the age referenced in Matthew 24:3? I don't think there is any. I believe that only doctrinal bias could lead someone to that conclusion.

Sounds like you have doctrinal bias.

 

[Hammster]

How do you think it will come about that all of His enemies will be defeated?

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20