This generation

[claninja]

I've already told you. But you don't believe me. So if I have to tell you again what (over 50% part) of the passage you're ignoring you still won't believe, because you keep arguing that the over 50% of the passage that belongs at the end of this Age does not belong there. So you've been doing a good job all along and all by yourself of demonstrating which part of the passage you're ignoring.

well I believe 100% of the olivet discourse belongs to the end of the age, so I still don’t understand your argument.

 

[rwb]

How is it that you think this is a counterpoint to my post? Maybe I missed something, but my point is that Paul said the last enemy is death, and that is the completion of the reversal of the fall.

My reply was in response to "With the new kingdom growth, the curse is being reversed and the final event will be the end of death." especially what I've high-lighted.

I'm not certain how you view resurrected life in Christ, but I've often confronted Christians who fail to understand the curse of death for whosoever believes is not being reversed, it is already reversed. That is one of the reasons there is so much confusion about the 'first resurrection' as being the resurrection of Christ that believers must have part in to have no fear of the second death.

Obviously we've gotten off topic of the OP! However I don't believe these topics have no relationship to one another.

 

[claninja]

What is Matthew 24:9 referring to? The tribulation of the saints? Or the destruction of Jerusalem's temple?

Matthew 24:4-13 are the signs that would occur leading up to the destruction of the temple and city in 70ad.

Did the disciples’ generation experience tribulation and persecution, famine, earthquakes, false prophets, wars, those falling away from the church, the gospel going out to all the known world?

yes, they clearly did. So i still can’t figure out what your argument is. Do you believe they didn’t experience these things?

The grammar in Matthew 24 makes it pretty obvious that everything that follows Matthew 24:9 is talking about Matthew 24:9 and not about the temple at Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 A.D. This is what you're ignoring.

I’m not sure what you mean by “grammar” makes it pretty obvious that all of the discourse following vs 9, is about vs 9. Can you clarify this?

Vs 4-13 are about the events that the disciples’ generation would experience prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. We know this because the disciples’ generation literally experienced these events prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

 

[claninja]

The vineyard owner will not DESTROY until the last day when He comes again. What He did in 70 AD is take the KINGDOM from them, giving it to believers, the Church.

Matthew 23:34-39 (KJV) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

That which Christ foretold would come upon Jerusalem was made clear in 70 AD with the literal destruction of the Temple and city. Notice Christ says it would come upon "this generation". Generation comes from geneá: age, generation, nation, time. This is proof that "this generation" is speaking of the nation of Israel. This prophesy is to Jerusalem that killed the prophets, stoned those whom God sent, and rejected their Messiah. The prophesy is to unbelievers, not His disciples. Even though the city and temple were destroyed and the nation left desolate, the Jew could still be saved by grace if they do not remain in unbelief.

It is because of the utter destruction of the Temple and city in 70 AD that Christ says this generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. The destruction might have left the elect remnant of Israel without hope if they thought the destruction made an end for all the nation to be saved by taking the kingdom from them. Christ does not leave His elect Jews without hope, because Israelites, like any other ethnic people can be saved IF they do not remain in unbelief.

Imagine being a faithful Jew, and hearing "your house is left unto you desolate" and "the kingdom is taken from you". How gracious for Christ to assure them that whosoever calls upon the Lord will still be saved, even Israel, until He comes again on the last day can come into the Kingdom. Just because the Kingdom was taken from the nation, so salvation came to Gentiles, does not mean that the whole nation will be lost. As long as Israel remains a people on the earth, whosoever among them that hears the Gospel of Christ, and believes by grace through the power of the Spirit will be saved.

I have no idea what your argument is here. It’s a simple question. Do you believe the vineyard owner destroyed the wicked tenants in 70ad? Yes or no?

 

[Hammster]

My reply was in response to "With the new kingdom growth, the curse is being reversed and the final event will be the end of death." especially what I've high-lighted.

I'm not certain how you view resurrected life in Christ, but I've often confronted Christians who fail to understand the curse of death for whosoever believes is not being reversed, it is already reversed. That is one of the reasons there is so much confusion about the 'first resurrection' as being the resurrection of Christ that believers must have part in to have no fear of the second death.

Obviously we've gotten off topic of the OP! However I don't believe these topics have no relationship to one another.

It’s not reversed because people still die. And if you don’t believe that, then you must believe that all of His enemies have been defeated. All you need to do is to look around and see that’s not true.

 

[claninja]

Therefore another factor in deciding which period is being spoken about is whether or not the AoD in the holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about something happening in the Old Testament temple, or the New Testament temple, and our answer to that question will depend on whether or not we view the words the holy place as identifying the Old Testament temple or the New Testament temple.

If we view those words as identifying the Old Testament temple despite the fact that the entire New Testament teaches that it was no longer the holy place following the tearing of the veil, then we can still conflate the destruction of the Old Testament temple with the end of the Age.

I already addressed this earlier.

matthew calls the city of Jerusalem “holy” even after the death and resurrection of Christ. Matthew was written long after Christs death and resurrection.

Matthew 27:53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

so your argument that the holy place cannot refer to the temple building, nor the city, following Christ’s death and resurrection, isn’t air tight.

But if we understand that Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 what the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is, and if we acknowledge that the word "therefore" in Matthew 24:15 is telling us that this AoD is the sign of the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-14,

Paul doesn’t mention the “aod” in 2 Thessalonians 2, unless you want to translate apostasy as “rebellion” or “war”, which some translations do, instead of “falling away”.

the “aod” is related to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. We know this because the parallel accounts demonstrate the result of the aod/armies surrounding Jerusalem: flee judea.

matthew 24:15-16 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’adescribed by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

Paul’s “man of sin” is not given too much detail in his letter, as he had already discussed it with the Thessalonians. I would argue Paul’s “man of sin” is more related to a false prophet/messiah performing false signs and deceiving.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 9The presence of the lawless one is by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved the

from josephus about false prophets prior to the destruction of Jerusalem:
“. A false prophet782 was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes.”

(now, i should add, I’m not dogmatic about this. I believe Paul could literally be referring to the temple building in his day, or it could just be an idiomatic expression for false messiah.)

additionally, we know this “man of sin existed in the first century, during Jesus’ generation, because according to the Greek verb tenses and grammar:

1.) his revealing was being now (adverb) restrained in Paul’s day

2.) lawless was a already at work (present tense verb) in Paul’s day

3.) the man of sin’s presence was existing (present tense verb) by the work of Satan in Paul’s day

 

[rwb]

It’s not reversed because people still die. And if you don’t believe that, then you must believe that all of His enemies have been defeated. All you need to do is to look around and see that’s not true.

Unbelievers still die!!! Believers NEVER die! Don't you believe Christ when He tells us:

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mankind consists of more than mere dust of the ground. To become a living soul, God must breathe life into them.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust = natural man, which every human is.
Breath of life = comes from God and is 5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh) a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Living soul = a breathing, living creature.

The natural man, of the earth cannot continue to live without the breath of life from God in them. But the breath of life as soul/spirit comes from God. When the breath of life is gone from the Spiritually alive man, the spirit returns to God who gave it. Solomon, speaking of the sons of man, (not the sons of God) to beasts, saying their death does not differ from the beasts because they simply return to the earth, and to dust again. But that is not true of the sons of God (believers). Their spirit returns to God in heaven who gave it, a spiritual body, alive and living and reigning with Christ in heaven until the last day of this age/era.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 (KJV) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (KJV) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Hammster]

Unbelievers still die!!! Believers NEVER die! Don't you believe Christ when He tells us:

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mankind consists of more than mere dust of the ground. To become a living soul, God must breathe life into them.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust = natural man, which every human is.
Breath of life = comes from God and is 5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh) a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Living soul = a breathing, living creature.

The natural man, of the earth cannot continue to live without the breath of life from God in them. But the breath of life as soul/spirit comes from God. When the breath of life is gone from the Spiritually alive man, the spirit returns to God who gave it. Solomon, speaking of the sons of man, (not the sons of God) to beasts, saying their death does not differ from the beasts because they simply return to the earth, and to dust again. But that is not true of the sons of God (believers). Their spirit returns to God in heaven who gave it, a spiritual body, alive and living and reigning with Christ in heaven until the last day of this age/era.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 (KJV) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (KJV) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

If unbelievers still die, then death still exists. Hence, the fact that death is the last enemy. I’m not sure what exactly you are arguing against.

 

[rwb]

If unbelievers still die, then death still exists. Hence, the fact that death is the last enemy. I’m not sure what exactly you are arguing against.

Yes, if one is in unbelief they will in fact DIE TWICE. But we are talking about those who are not in unbelief, but are in fact Christians. Why spend time on what becomes of those who die without Christ? There is no more hope for them! But we who are in Christ have this hope, Christ defeated death through His cross and resurrection. This is whose death we are discussing.

Jesus through suffering of death has tasted death for every man. Read this statement in context for "every" man is qualified by saying He brings "many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings". Cleary "every" man is not without exception, but without distinction, whosoever is saved. The children which God has given Him.

Hebrews 2:9-13 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that death for those who are in Christ has been defeated? Just as bodily death could not hold Christ, neither can it hold those who are found in Him. What is keeping you from believing what Christ has plainly stated?

 

[Hammster]

Yes, if one is in unbelief they will in fact DIE TWICE. But we are talking about those who are not in unbelief, but are in fact Christians. Why spend time on what becomes of those who die without Christ? There is no more hope for them! But we who are in Christ have this hope, Christ defeated death through His cross and resurrection. This is whose death we are discussing.

Jesus through suffering of death has tasted death for every man. Read this statement in context for "every" man is qualified by saying He brings "many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings". Cleary "every" man is not without exception, but without distinction, whosoever is saved. The children which God has given Him.

Hebrews 2:9-13 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that death for those who are in Christ has been defeated? Just as bodily death could not hold Christ, neither can it hold those who are found in Him. What is keeping you from believing what Christ has plainly stated?

I have no idea why you are on this track. I’m pointing out that Paul says the last enemy to go is death. I actually believe that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have no idea what your argument is here. It’s a simple question. Do you believe the vineyard owner destroyed the wicked tenants in 70ad? Yes or no?

That judgment started at the cross, continued through the First Jewish Revolt, (AD 66–70), the Second Jewish Revolt, (AD 132–135) after that in some notable judgments, right through to today, and will culminate with their eternal destruction on judgment day.

 

[rwb]

I have no idea why you are on this track. I’m pointing out that Paul says the last enemy to go is death. I actually believe that.

If you believe Paul, why don't you believe Christ when He tells us those who live and believe in Him NEVER die? How do you reconcile these apparent contradictory statements? Just as believers through Christ have power to turn away from sin, so too through that same power we have defeated death.

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Hammster]

If you believe Paul, why don't you believe Christ when He tells us those who live and believe in Him NEVER die? How do you reconcile these apparent contradictory statements? Just as believers through Christ have power to turn away from sin, so too through that same power we have defeated death.

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

I still have no idea how you think this is any sort of rebuttal against my point. You’ve admitted that death still exists. I’m saying that Paul says that death is the last enemy that will be defeated. It’s an eschatological statement, not soteriological.

 

[Zao is life]

matthew calls the city of Jerusalem “holy” even after the death and resurrection of Christ. Matthew was written long after Christs death and resurrection.

Matthew 27:53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

for info @rwb
Your argument isn't airtight at all because the only city the Revelation calls the holy city is New Jerusalem. So those who came out of the grave went into New Jerusalem, not the city not called holy after the death and resurrection of Christ.

You have to go according to the New Testament definition of the holy city. Not what you think it "should be" referring to.

@claninja Here's a list of all the verses in the New Testament referring to the holy city:-

1. Before the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 4:5 Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city and set Him upon a pinnacle of the Temple.

After the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 27:53 after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Revelation calls only New Jerusalem the holy city following the death and resurrection of Christ:

Revelation 21:2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,

Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

There is no city mentioned in the Revelation other than:-

(i) New Jerusalem; and

(ii) Babylon the Great, or the city"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

So by the New Testament's own definition, Jerusalem is not called the holy city following the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

well I believe 100% of the olivet discourse belongs to the end of the age, so I still don’t understand your argument.

The end of the Age is the end of the period following the tearing of the veil which has not ended yet.

 

[rwb]

I still have no idea how you think this is any sort of rebuttal against my point. You’ve admitted that death still exists. I’m saying that Paul says that death is the last enemy that will be defeated. It’s an eschatological statement, not soteriological.

Hammster the apparent contradiction can only be reconciled when we understand that death of our mortal, corruptible body for those in Christ means our everlasting life we possess through Christ in us ascends to heaven. I can only assume it is your doctrinal view that is keeping you from admitting this fundamental biblical truth.

When Paul says death is the last enemy, he is speaking of the death of the physical, mortal corruptible body. Not of our eternal life we have through Him. Our body is not fitted to life with our eternal spirit/soul until it is raised immortal and incorruptible. It is only our body that is raised from the grave and changed when the last trumpet sounds because those who have died in Christ He brings with Him when He comes again.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So you can continue to argue that death has not been defeated through Christ, but please realize that is not an insignificant departure from biblical truth.

 

[Zao is life]

incorrect. there are plenty of non-full preterist scholarly resources that demonstrate the belief “this generation” refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. See below for just a small example. However, as to your position, I cannot find any that agree. Are you able to provide any?

Barnes commentary on Matthew 24:34

“This generation ... - This age; this race of people. A generation is about 30 or 40 years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken.”

Gills commentary on Matthew 24:34:
“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”

expositor Greek testament on Matthew 24:34
“Solemn assurance that the predicted will come to pass.—πάντα ταῦτα is most naturally taken to mean the same things as in Matthew 24:33, he main subject of the discourse, the impending destruction of the Jewish state. Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation (ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη), not merely through miraculous foresight but through clear insight into the moral forces at work”

Bengels gnomen on Matthew 24:34
“From the date of this prediction to the destruction of Jerusalem was a space of forty years, and from the true year of our Lord’s nativity to that event was a space of about seventy-five years. The Jews, however (as, for example, in Seder Olam), reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ, “shall not pass away,” intimate that the greater part of that generation, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all the events indicated should have come to pass. The prediction is true with respect to either the forty or the seventy-five years.[1062] So accurately did the Evangelist describe it many years before the event took place.”

Benson commentary on Matthew 24:34:
“This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, — Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem. “It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation.”

You're quoting commentators. I'm talking about scholars who are theologians. Most of them disagree with Preterist and Partial Preterist notions regarding when the Age will end.

If it were not so, the entire church would be Preterist or Partial-Preterist today. So let's leave the game of sources not in the Bible out of the discussion, please. It's pointless.

Do the above commentators you quote all say that the end of the Age and the return of Christ was in 70 A.D?

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 24:4-13 are the signs that would occur leading up to the destruction of the temple and city in 70ad.

Vs 4-13 are about the events that the disciples’ generation would experience prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. We know this because the disciples’ generation literally experienced these events prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Not so. There is still tribulation of Christians going on today, and has been ever since.

You simply have not provided any support for the notion that Matthew 24:4-34 is talking about a 1st century generation of Christians. Hence, no proof that "this generation" refers to the 1st generation of Christians.

 

[Timtofly]

When Paul says death is the last enemy, he is speaking of the death of the physical, mortal corruptible body. Not of our eternal life we have through Him. Our body is not fitted to life with our eternal spirit/soul until it is raised immortal and incorruptible. It is only our body that is raised from the grave and changed when the last trumpet sounds because those who have died in

In Revelation 20, at the end of the 1,000 years, when Jesus is about to hand the kingdom back to God, many are given a choice. Those people consumed by fire lost their physical and spiritual life. So death at that point still includes the spiritual and physical. You are jumping the gun, if you think it only means one or the other.

Certainly you do not think those physically consumed by fire were also immediately born into God's spiritual family at the same time. The whole point is they chose Death, the last enemy to be defeated, and then Death was defeated.

Death could not be defeated until those at the end were made Death's last victims.

 

[rwb]

In Revelation 20, at the end of the 1,000 years, when Jesus is about to hand the kingdom back to God, many are given a choice. Those people consumed by fire lost their physical and spiritual life. So death at that point still includes the spiritual and physical. You are jumping the gun, if you think it only means one or the other.

Prove through Scripture what you allege here. Show who is given a choice after the thousand years, and in what manner this choice is given to them???

Those consumed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven are all unbelievers. They are physically burned up, bodily raised at the judgment throne of God, only to be cast into the second death, that is the LOF.

Certainly you do not think those physically consumed by fire were also immediately born into God's spiritual family at the same time. The whole point is they chose Death, the last enemy to be defeated, and then Death was defeated.

Death could not be defeated until those at the end were made Death's last victims.

Those consumed by fire that comes down from God can never be part of the family of God. Because we read in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Either you believe what Christ says John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? or you don't. If you don't believe this promise from Christ then you deny what is plainly written.