This generation

[Hammster]

"My argument is that this generation means those contemporary of christ. Therefore, since the destruction of temple did occur within Jesus’ generation, the coming of Christ was not the “2nd advent” but of judgement and wrath upon apostate Israel."

So why conflate the two events as you are? The wrath of the Lord was poured out on an apostate place and people in 70 AD. While that gives a pretty good picture of what His wrath is like, it does not compare to the judgment that will come upon the whole earth when Christ returns on the last day of this era.

I disagree. Scripture shows us that Christ returns as victorious King, He enemies having been defeated.

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying that if Scripture is applicable to every believer regardless the age we live in, we would have to have been among those scattered through persecution in the first century???

I’m trying to understand your view.

 

[claninja]

"This generation" is referring to the generation of saints that would go through the great tribulation at the end of the Age, 1950+ years after the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 A.D. I'm sorry if you think "this generation" should refer to any other generation than the generation Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24:9-31.

“this” doesn’t mean “that”.

Did the vineyard owner “come” to destroy the wicked tenants that murdered his son?

 

[rwb]

would you agree this event was related to the “coming” of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants for murdering his son?

The parable is directed to the chief priests and elders, and foretells of the wrath that will come upon the nation for rejecting and killing the Messiah they waited so long for.

Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

This is not a parable of what will happen when the Lord comes again on the last day. The kingdom was indeed taken from them and given to:

1 Peter 2:6-10 (KJV) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The elect are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, the people of God.

But for who rejected Him, as the parable foretells stumble at the word, disobedient, on whom God's wrath came as Christ said it would when the kingdom was taken from them and given to His elect people of God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Some say Matthew (the only pssgs that have guardians in the NT gospel) some Daniel, so tomatoes potatoes imo. What verses in them refer to eternity?

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree. Scripture shows us that Christ returns as victorious King, He enemies having been defeated.

That's patently false. Scripture teaches that Christ Himself will defeat His enemies at the time of His return. The saints will be overcome.

 

[Zao is life]

Right, Antiochus overthrew the Jewish government and destroyed many Israelites in the process

And this proves what? That the saints are not Israel? Give me a break.

 

[Zao is life]

generic drive by arguments without evidence, such as yours in this case, aren’t arguments.

I’m honestly interested in knowing which 50% I’m ignoring.

I've already told you. But you don't believe me. So if I have to tell you again what (over 50% part) of the passage you're ignoring you still won't believe, because you keep arguing that the over 50% of the passage that belongs at the end of this Age does not belong there. So you've been doing a good job all along and all by yourself of demonstrating which part of the passage you're ignoring.

 

[claninja]

I've already told you. But you don't believe me. So if I have to tell you again what (over 50% part) of the passage you're ignoring you still won't believe, because you keep arguing that the over 50% of the passage that belongs at the end of this Age does not belong there. So you've been doing a good job all along and all by yourself of demonstrating which part of the passage you're ignoring.

Since I don’t know what I’m ignoring, I would like to know what it is that you claim

 

[claninja]

And this proves what? That the saints are not Israel? Give me a break.

It demonstrates evidence for the original point. “Signs in heaven going dark” = overthrow of governments and terror upon its people

 

[Zao is life]

i can’t find any serious scholarship that agrees with you on this. So i don’t think your position is as obvious as you think. I’m trying to follow you, but your arguments don’t make sense.

The OT consistently applies metaphorical language of “signs in the heavens going dark” to the fall of kingdoms and governments, NOT to persecution of saints. So again, not sure what youre talking about.

To the contrary, there is no serious Christian scholarship that agrees with you that Matthew 24 is all and only about 70 A.D and that everything Jesus said was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

 

[Zao is life]

Since I don’t know what I’m ignoring, I would like to know what it is that you claim

You do know what you're ignoring.

What is Matthew 24:9 talking about. The destruction of the temple?

As I see it we all seem to agree that the disciples asked about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Age.

* Did Jesus tell them when the destruction of the Jerusalem temple would come?

* Did Jesus tell them when the end of the Age would come?

The answer to both of the above questions is "no".

So whether we believe that joining the two periods into one and the same period is conflating the two periods or not, what we believe regarding this will decide how we interpret "this generation" in Matthew 24:34, since Matthew 24:34 is said in the context of Jesus have talked a lot about the tribulation of the saints and their redemption.

That also shows though, that the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple is not the only thing Jesus was talking about: The other subject is the subject of the tribulation of the saints and their redemption at the end of the Age.

Therefore another factor in deciding which period is being spoken about is whether or not the AoD in the holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about something happening in the Old Testament temple, or the New Testament temple, and our answer to that question will depend on whether or not we view the words the holy place as identifying the Old Testament temple or the New Testament temple.

If we view those words as identifying the Old Testament temple despite the fact that the entire New Testament teaches that it was no longer the holy place following the tearing of the veil, then we can still conflate the destruction of the Old Testament temple with the end of the Age.

But if we understand that Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 what the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is, and if we acknowledge that the word "therefore" in Matthew 24:15 is telling us that this AoD is the sign of the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-14,

then we will acknowledge that the fact that the grammar in the passage joins the whole part which begins to talk about the tribulation of the disciples (Matthew 24:9) to the part talking about their redemption (Matthew 24:29-31), and then we will understand that "this generation" is talking about the persecuted saints at the end of the Age and not about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

But you have been ignoring the fact that most of the Olivet Discourse is talking about the tribulation of the saints at the end of the Age, and not about the tribulation the unbelieving Jews living in Jerusalem would experience in 70 A.D.

So you have been ignoring over 50% of the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Hammster]

That's patently false. Scripture teaches that Christ Himself will defeat His enemies at the time of His return. The saints will be overcome.

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:23-27
The order of events show that all His enemies are defeated, except death, upon His return. His return marks the final victory, which is the victory over death.

 

[rwb]

so you agree the vineyard owner “came” to destroy the wicked tenants is a reference to 70ad, correct?

The vineyard owner will not DESTROY until the last day when He comes again. What He did in 70 AD is take the KINGDOM from them, giving it to believers, the Church.

Matthew 23:34-39 (KJV) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

That which Christ foretold would come upon Jerusalem was made clear in 70 AD with the literal destruction of the Temple and city. Notice Christ says it would come upon "this generation". Generation comes from geneá: age, generation, nation, time. This is proof that "this generation" is speaking of the nation of Israel. This prophesy is to Jerusalem that killed the prophets, stoned those whom God sent, and rejected their Messiah. The prophesy is to unbelievers, not His disciples. Even though the city and temple were destroyed and the nation left desolate, the Jew could still be saved by grace if they do not remain in unbelief.

It is because of the utter destruction of the Temple and city in 70 AD that Christ says this generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. The destruction might have left the elect remnant of Israel without hope if they thought the destruction made an end for all the nation to be saved by taking the kingdom from them. Christ does not leave His elect Jews without hope, because Israelites, like any other ethnic people can be saved IF they do not remain in unbelief.

Imagine being a faithful Jew, and hearing "your house is left unto you desolate" and "the kingdom is taken from you". How gracious for Christ to assure them that whosoever calls upon the Lord will still be saved, even Israel, until He comes again on the last day can come into the Kingdom. Just because the Kingdom was taken from the nation, so salvation came to Gentiles, does not mean that the whole nation will be lost. As long as Israel remains a people on the earth, whosoever among them that hears the Gospel of Christ, and believes by grace through the power of the Spirit will be saved.

 

[Zao is life]

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:23-27
The order of events show that all His enemies are defeated, except death, upon His return. His return marks the final victory, which is the victory over death.

Death is only cast into the Lake of Fire at the close of the thousand years, and a thousand years after the beast is destroyed by Christ at his return. It's a separate issue. But even so, death has already been defeated.

 

[Timtofly]

Death is only cast into the Lake of Fire at the close of the thousand years, and a thousand years after the beast is destroyed by Christ at his return. It's a separate issue. But even so, death has already been defeated.

Death will be defeated when humans stop dying. Many have stopped dying since the Cross. They no longer tasted death. But many more continue to die. The last being those after the 1,000 years consumed by fire. Jesus hands back the kingdom to God perfect without death. Unfortunately, Jesus will have many tasters of death, who at the very end still choose death over life. They choose to listen to Satan, whose best offer to humanity, is always death.

 

[parousia70]

To the contrary, there is no serious Christian scholarship that agrees with you that Matthew 24 is all and only about 70 A.D and that everything Jesus said was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

I would challenge you to find ANY scholarly opinion that suppports your claim that St Thomas Aquinas was NOT a "Serious Christian Scholar".

 

[Zao is life]

@Hammster

As I see it we all seem to agree that the disciples asked about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Age.

* Did Jesus tell them when the destruction of the Jerusalem temple would come?

* Did Jesus tell them when the end of the Age would come?

The answer to both of the above questions is "no".

So whether we believe that joining the two periods into one and the same period is conflating the two periods or not, what we believe regarding this will decide how we interpret "this generation" in Matthew 24:34, since Matthew 24:34 is said in the context of Jesus have talked a lot about the tribulation of the saints and their redemption.

That also shows though, that the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple is not the only thing Jesus was talking about: The other subject is the subject of the tribulation of the saints and their redemption at the end of the Age.

Therefore another factor in deciding which period is being spoken about is whether or not the AoD in the holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about something happening in the Old Testament temple, or the New Testament temple, and our answer to that question will depend on whether or not we view the words the holy place as identifying the Old Testament temple or the New Testament temple.

If we view those words as identifying the Old Testament temple despite the fact that the entire New Testament teaches that it was no longer the holy place following the tearing of the veil, then we can still conflate the destruction of the Old Testament temple with the end of the Age.

But if we understand that Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 what the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is, and if we acknowledge that the word "therefore" in Matthew 24:15 is telling us that this AoD is the sign of the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-14,

then we will acknowledge that the fact that the grammar in the passage joins the whole part which begins to talk about the tribulation of the disciples (Matthew 24:9) to the part talking about their redemption (Matthew 24:29-31), and then we will understand that "this generation" is talking about the persecuted saints at the end of the Age and not about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

 

[parousia70]

The vineyard owner will not DESTROY until the last day when He comes again. What He did in 70 AD is take the KINGDOM from them, giving it to believers, the Church.

The texts says their destruction is simultaneous with the taking of the kingdom from them and giving it to another:
Matthew 21:40-41
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

As long as Israel remains a people on the earth, whosoever among them that hears the Gospel of Christ, and believes by grace through the power of the Spirit will be saved.

Thanks to two millennia of natural dispersion, Israel is present in ALL of Humanity today.
It is found within every member of the human race.

ALL of us are that "remaining people Israel on earth" that you speak of.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[Hammster]

Death is only cast into the Lake of Fire at the close of the thousand years, and a thousand years after the beast is destroyed by Christ at his return. It's a separate issue. But even so, death has already been defeated.

Paul apparently disagrees with you.