This generation

[claninja]

How is 'generation' in Mt 1:1 defined?

Generation or genea is not found in Matthew 1:1.

 

[DavidPT]

It did happen in 70 AD. So your point is moot.

One reason, among many, why some of us can't get onboard with your interpretation of this generation in the OD is because that would mean we have to do what you wrongly do in that case, apply the coming in the OD to that of the first century rather than in the end of this age where Jesus intended for it be applied.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


To apply this coming, in any sense, to that of events involving the first century is simply not reasonable to a lot of us and never will be regardless what the opposition argues.

 

[rwb]

And Israel will never cease to be a nation, so this doesn’t make sense.

Matthew 24:34 doesn’t contain genos, as you argue. It has genea. 2 different words

Native Israel; i.e. Israel in unbelief along with all who remain in unbelief regardless their native state will be destroyed when Christ comes again. The only Israel that will never cease is the Israel of God. They are neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new creature, Christians.

Galatians 6:14-15 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 6:16 (KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Hammster]

One reason, among many, why some of us can't get onboard with your interpretation of this generation in the OD is because that would mean we have to do what you wrongly do in that case, apply the coming in the OD to that of the first century rather than in the end of this age where Jesus intended for it be applied.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


To apply this coming, in any sense, to that of events involving the first century is simply not reasonable to a lot of us and never will be regardless what the opposition argues.

If He intended it to be later, this is how He would have had to say it.

And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. They will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that they are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. “Then they will deliver them to tribulation, and will kill them, and they will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when they see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to them, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ they should not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told them in advance. So if they say to them, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ they should not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ they should not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, they know that summer is near; so, them too, when they see all these things, they shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

 

[Zao is life]

yes.

Was the disciples’ generation hated throughout the nations? Yes, read the book of acts.

were those from the disciples generation killed and persecuted? Yes, read the book of acts

Did Christian’s begin to fall away during the disciples generation? Yes, see 1 john 2:18-20. It’s how they knew it was the “last hour”.

Even if it was the last hour before the destruction of city and temple, how do we know it did not result in the return of Christ? There is a way of knowing, found in the scriptures. What is it?

 

[Zao is life]

Except He didn’t say those things had to happen within that generation.

But Paul said it had to happen at the time of the return of Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

If He intended it to be later, this is how He would have had to say it.

“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, they know that summer is near; so, them too, when they see all these things, they shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

I'm assuming your main point involves this part, right?


they know that summer is near; so, them too, when they see all these things, they shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Instead of----

you know that summer is near; so, when you see all these things, you shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


The problem with the latter interpretation if taking it to literally mean the ones Jesus was addressing at the time, and assuming 70 AD is meant here, I have already argued somewhere in this thread, or maybe another one, that this means Jesus lied to some of them, such as Andrew, because he certainly wasn't still around in 70 AD in order to see all those things involving that. That means this is what Jesus said to Andrew since he was present at the time. Andrew, you know that summer is near; so, when you, Andrew, see all these things, you, Andrew, shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door.

Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,


We at least know these 4 were present at the time. And we at least know 3 of these never lived to see 70 AD.

 

[Hammster]

But Paul said it had to happen at the time of the return of Christ.

The second advent is a different issue.

 

[Hammster]

I'm assuming your main point involves this part, right?


they know that summer is near; so, them too, when they see all these things, they shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Instead of----

you know that summer is near; so, when you see all these things, you shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


The problem with the latter interpretation if taking it to literally mean the ones Jesus was addressing at the time, and assuming 70 AD is meant here, I have already argued somewhere in this thread, or maybe another one, that this means Jesus lied to some of them, such as Andrew, because he certainly wasn't still around in 70 AD in order to see all those things involving that. That means this is what Jesus said to Andrew since he was present at the time. Andrew, you know that summer is near; so, when you, Andrew, see all these things, you, Andrew, shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door.

Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,


We at least know these 4 were present at the time. And we at least know 3 of these never lived to see 70 AD.

Except that “you” equals “this generation”. Otherwise, different terminology would be used.

 

[Timtofly]

The question still is, how would they understand “this generation”? If they would understand it to mean 40 years, then those things must have happened within 40 years. The fact that the temple was destroyed in 40 years just seals the deal.

That generation was already dead or dying by 60AD. Not sure how you can keep stretching time here.

Josephus was born 7 years after the Cross. He was not even "that generation". He experienced the destruction of Jerusalem as a 33 year old male. Yet he was not even even born when Jesus spoke on the mount of Olives.

So if that generation was 30 in 30AD, they would have been 70 years old, and life expectancy was only 35 years of age. Peter and Paul died in their elder years and did not even make it to 70AD. Why are so many here not understanding that generation was literally dead prior to 70AD. You really want to understand it like those in the first century did? All who heard Jesus that day were all dead by 70AD.

Vespasian was still alive. He lived from 9AD to 79AD. Perhaps an exception. But not really part of the audience. Do you think Jesus was talking about Vespasian? Vespasian would have been 21, about the average person's age of "that generation".

I am not even saying it was that generation. It is the generation who sees the blooming of the fig tree. And it is not a set date. It is that not all have died, before seeing all that happens from start to finish. Some who die at Armageddon will have been alive when Israel became a nation. And being at least 20 at the time means they are between 90 and 100 years old. Life expectancy is higher today.

 

[Hammster]

That generation was already dead or dying by 60AD. Not sure how you can keep stretching time here.

Josephus was born 7 years after the Cross. He was not even "that generation". He experienced the destruction of Jerusalem as a 33 year old male. Yet he was not even even born when Jesus spoke on the mount of Olives.

So if that generation was 30 in 30AD, they would have been 70 years old, and life expectancy was only 35 years of age. Peter and Paul died in their elder years and did not even make it to 70AD. Why are so many here not understanding that generation was literally dead prior to 70AD. You really want to understand it like those in the first century did? All who heard Jesus that day were all dead by 70AD.

Vespasian was still alive. He lived from 9AD to 79AD. Perhaps an exception. But not really part of the audience. Do you think Jesus was talking about Vespasian? Vespasian would have been 21, about the average person's age of "that generation".

I am not even saying it was that generation. It is the generation who sees the blooming of the fig tree. And it is not a set date. It is that not all have died, before seeing all that happens from start to finish. Some who die at Armageddon will have been alive when Israel became a nation. And being at least 20 at the time means they are between 90 and 100 years old. Life expectancy is higher today.

That’s the best “don’t even pretend to address what I said” post I’ve seen in awhile.

 

[rwb]

If He intended it to be later, this is how He would have had to say it.

And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. They will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that they are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. “Then they will deliver them to tribulation, and will kill them, and they will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when they see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to them, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ they should not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told them in advance. So if they say to them, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ they should not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ they should not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, they know that summer is near; so, them too, when they see all these things, they shouod recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Would there not be an expansion of the audience because Christ says, "(whoso readeth, let him understand)"? If that's the case then all who read, read as written, and the words apply to 'you' the reader as well???

 

[rwb]

Except that “you” equals “this generation”. Otherwise, different terminology would be used.

Then why add "whosoever reads let him understand"?

 

[Hammster]

Would there not be an expansion of the audience because Christ says, "(whoso readeth, let him understand)"? If that's the case then all who read, read as written, and the words apply to 'you' the reader as well???

That would still be the original audience. It doesn’t change with each generation who read it.

 

[Hammster]

Then why add "whosoever reads let him understand"?

Because the reader should understand.

 

[rwb]

That would still be the original audience. It doesn’t change with each generation who read it.

The Bible is written for the church, it is applicable to every believer whether they lived in the first century or will live in the last. Some of what Christ says in the OD is applicable to those who lived at that time, but most is applicable to all believers. For instance vss 5-15 is warning for the whole church. Then Christ speaks of things that apply to those living in Judea specifically vss 16-20. Then in vs 21 to the end of the chapter Christ speaks of great tribulation that most certainly began in that time, but we understand through history that the church has suffered great tribulation since being established universally on the earth. The words of Christ continue to be applicable for believers in every age. Every new generation of believers reading the words of the prophesy should 'understand' these words are for them as well as for those who lived in the time of Christ. We try to fit Christ's words into a single generation to fit our doctrinal point of view. But if we allow the prophesy to speak to believers of every age, we view the prophesy as being for whosoever reads and understands.

 

[Hammster]

The Bible is written for the church, it is applicable to every believer whether they lived in the first century or will live in the last. Some of what Christ says in the OD is applicable to those who lived at that time, but most is applicable to all believers. For instance vss 5-15 is warning for the whole church. Then Christ speaks of things that apply to those living in Judea specifically vss 16-20. Then in vs 21 to the end of the chapter Christ speaks of great tribulation that most certainly began in that time, but we understand through history that the church has suffered great tribulation since being established universally on the earth. The words of Christ continue to be applicable for believers in every age. Every new generation of believers reading the words of the prophesy should 'understand' these words are for them as well as for those who lived in the time of Christ. We try to fit Christ's words into a single generation to fit our doctrinal point of view. But if we allow the prophesy to speak to believers of every age, we view the prophesy as being for whosoever reads and understands.

That’s not proper hermeneutics because you have to understand it the way the original audience would understand it. You can’t understand as if it was written today. So they wouldn’t have the understanding that you have.

 

[rwb]

That’s not proper hermeneutics because you have to understand it the way the original audience would understand it. You can’t understand as if it was written today. So they wouldn’t have the understanding that you have.

I don't believe that Hammster. Our understanding comes from the providence of God through His Spirit in us. Hear the words of Christ as He spoke to an original audience "you" alive at that time, and tell me if you limit His words to them, or that the original audience would understand His promise of the Spirit differently than believers throughout the ages even though Christ is speaking directly to "you" (them).

John 14:16-21 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[rwb]

Here too, all of chapter 16 of John, spoken to those living at the time, but certainly applicable to every believer regardless the age we live in. All the words of Christ are speaking to His church, as well as to the original audience. There is not an exception with the Olivet Discourse.

John 16:1-33 (KJV) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[claninja]

Native Israel; i.e. Israel in unbelief along with all who remain in unbelief regardless their native state will be destroyed when Christ comes again. The only Israel that will never cease is the Israel of God. They are neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new creature, Christians.

Galatians 6:14-15 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 6:16 (KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

abrahams dna is ubiquitous, so I still don’t know what you mean.

genea and genos are not the same word.