This generation

[Hammster]

You're the one arguing how they would have understood "this generation" as being 40 years. How do you know that is how they understood it? I'm suggesting to you that they understood it to mean the seed of Abraham; i.e. the nation of Israel, would not pass away until all if fulfilled. And don't forget the destruction of the Temple was literal. Why would they believe anything Christ said would come to pass symbolically? It makes no sense.

We have a good idea how long a generation is, and how they would have understood it.


Now the time that it took for us to come from Kadesh-barnea until we crossed over the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until all the generation of the men of war perished from within the camp, as the Lord had sworn to them.
— Deuteronomy 2:14

Since we know they were 40 years in the wilderness, we can be fairly certain that this is how the disciples would understand “this generation”. There are a lot of OT references in the OD, and they would have been familiar with them.

 

[claninja]

The Old Testament prophets were looking for an age/era to come that would be the Day of the Lord. So they describe what will come to pass within that age/era when the Day of the Lord finally comes. Since the first advent of Christ, we look not for an age/era to come, but for the Day, one day, when Christ will come again.

Doesnt answer my question

 

[DavidPT]

does the OT use metaphorical language to describe God descending on the clouds to judge enemies and nations?

While that is true, what you don't seem to factoring in here, when Jesus returns in the end of this age it will involve judgment at that time. Clearly, 70 AD involved judgment, no one disputes that, but so does the end of this age involve judgment. Why can't it apply to the latter? Why does it have to apply only to the former?

 

[Hammster]

yes.

Was the disciples’ generation hated throughout the nations? Yes, read the book of acts.

were those from the disciples generation killed and persecuted? Yes, read the book of acts

Did Christian’s begin to fall away during the disciples generation? Yes, see 1 john 2:18-20. It’s how they knew it was the “last hour”.

Don’t forget Paul lamenting those who abandoned him.

 

[Hammster]

If you would stop looking at their generation as living in a certain time instead of the natural generation (seeds) of Abraham, then perhaps you could understand how Christ could say the natural seeds of Abraham would still be on the earth to witness and experience all that He said they would. And it would not be necessary to spiritualize the coming of Christ.

I think looking at the context of what He said, especially with all of the second person plurals He used, and it’s obvious that they would have no other option but to believe He meant their current generation.

 

[Hammster]

The Greek word genea is derived from genos.

γένος génos, ghen'-os

from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

I think it’s best to use the actual word, not the word it’s derived from.

 

[DavidPT]

We have a good idea how long a generation is, and how they would have understood it.


Now the time that it took for us to come from Kadesh-barnea until we crossed over the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until all the generation of the men of war perished from within the camp, as the Lord had sworn to them.
— Deuteronomy 2:14

Since we know they were 40 years in the wilderness, we can be fairly certain that this is how the disciples would understand “this generation”. There are a lot of OT references in the OD, and they would have been familiar with them.

Even though it never panned out like this, imagine if what happened in 70 AD didn't happen until 150 AD, as an example. What then? Would you still be arguing in the manner you are? OTOH, when looking at it like that, the fact it didn't happen over a 100 years later, but happened within 40 years, it does make your interpretation plausible. Or maybe it's just a coincidence that it happened within 40 years, and that it's not actually connected with what Jesus said concerning this generation.

 

[rwb]

contemporaries, as you’ve correctly posted, are those living at the same time.

King David is of the seed of Abraham. Did king David live at the same time as Christ?

Look at the generation of Christ in Mt 1:1-17. The generation of Christ according to the genealogical record is fourteen generations.

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

The Greek word defined 'generation' in Mt. 1:1 is: γένεσις génesis, ghen'-es-is
from the same as G1074; nativity; figuratively, nature:—generation, nature(-ral).

Notice 'genesis' is from the same as: γενεά geneá, ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

γένος génos, ghen'-os
from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Even though Christ was born in the first generation AD, His generation, that is all the generations from Abraham to Christ are recorded as the 'generation' or 'nativity', 'natural descendent' of Christ. It is "this generation" or natural seed of Abraham that Christ says will not pass away until all these things written are fulfilled.

Matthew 1:17 (KJV) So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

 

[rwb]

I think it’s best to use the actual word, not the word it’s derived from.

How is 'generation' in Mt 1:1 defined?

 

[claninja]

Look at the generation of Christ in Mt 1:1-17. The generation of Christ according to the genealogical record is fourteen generations.

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

The Greek word defined 'generation' in Mt. 1:1 is: γένεσις génesis, ghen'-es-is
from the same as G1074; nativity; figuratively, nature:—generation, nature(-ral).

Notice 'genesis' is from the same as: γενεά geneá, ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

γένος génos, ghen'-os
from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Even though Christ was born in the first generation AD, His generation, that is all the generations from Abraham to Christ are recorded as the 'generation' or 'nativity', 'natural descendent' of Christ. It is "this generation" or natural seed of Abraham that Christ says will not pass away until all these things written are fulfilled.

Matthew 1:17 (KJV) So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

doesn’t answer my question. Did king David live at the same time as Jesus?

I’m not understanding your argument. Words “derived” from other words don’t have to have the exact same meaning. That’s why they are “derived”. Just because genea is “derived” from genos, doesn’t mean they have the exact definition.

genea and genos are not the same word, but you seem to be arguing that they are.

 

[rwb]

doesn’t answer my question. Did king David live at the same time as Jesus?

I’m not understanding your argument. Words “derived” from other words to have the exact same meaning. That’s why they are “derived”. Just because genea is “derived” from genos, doesn’t mean they have the exact definition.

genea and genos are not the same word, but you seem to be arguing that they are.

Derivation is the formation of a word from another word or base, the origin, root or source. For example strategize was formed by derivation from strategy.

 

[claninja]

Derivation is the formation of a word from another word or base, the origin, root or source. For example strategize was formed by derivation from strategy.

and strategize doesn’t have the same exact meaning as strategy. They are not interchangeable words.

Genea does not have the same meaning as genos just because it is “derived” from it. The LXX and NT uses for genea are different than genos.

Was Jesus of the same genos as david? Yes, Jesus was from the same nation, stock, or tribe as david.

was Jesus of the same genea as david? No, David was many generations prior to Jesus. They were not contemporary.

 

[claninja]

While that is true, what you don't seem to factoring in here, when Jesus returns in the end of this age it will involve judgment at that time. Clearly, 70 AD involved judgment, no one disputes that, but so does the end of this age involve judgment. Why can't it apply to the latter? Why does it have to apply only to the former?

Because Jesus said “this generation” will not pass away before ALL THESE THINGS OCCUR”

 

[claninja]

Even though it never panned out like this, imagine if what happened in 70 AD didn't happen until 150 AD, as an example. What then? Would you still be arguing in the manner you are? OTOH, when looking at it like that, the fact it didn't happen over a 100 years later, but happened within 40 years, it does make your interpretation plausible. Or maybe it's just a coincidence that it happened within 40 years, and that it's not actually connected with what Jesus said concerning this generation.

If the temple wasn’t destroyed within Jesus’ generation, as he prophesied, Christianity wouldn’t be all over the world.

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

it was not a “coincidence”

 

[rwb]

Because Jesus said “this generation” will not pass away before ALL THESE THINGS OCCUR”

He obviously meant what He said, because Israel as a nation has not passed away, and will not until all has been fulfilled.

 

[claninja]

He obviously meant what He said, because Israel as a nation has not passed away, and will not until all has been fulfilled.

And Israel will never cease to be a nation, so this doesn’t make sense.

Matthew 24:34 doesn’t contain genos, as you argue. It has genea. 2 different words

 

[claninja]

We have a good idea how long a generation is, and how they would have understood it.


Now the time that it took for us to come from Kadesh-barnea until we crossed over the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until all the generation of the men of war perished from within the camp, as the Lord had sworn to them.
— Deuteronomy 2:14

Since we know they were 40 years in the wilderness, we can be fairly certain that this is how the disciples would understand “this generation”. There are a lot of OT references in the OD, and they would have been familiar with them.

And guess what word the translators of the LXX used for generation in Deuteronomy 2:14?……..wait for it……. Genea.

 

[Hammster]

Even though it never panned out like this, imagine if what happened in 70 AD didn't happen until 150 AD, as an example. What then? Would you still be arguing in the manner you are? OTOH, when looking at it like that, the fact it didn't happen over a 100 years later, but happened within 40 years, it does make your interpretation plausible. Or maybe it's just a coincidence that it happened within 40 years, and that it's not actually connected with what Jesus said concerning this generation.

It did happen in 70 AD. So your point is moot.

 

[Hammster]

How is 'generation' in Mt 1:1 defined?

Not relevant due to context.

 

[rwb]

If the temple wasn’t destroyed within Jesus’ generation, as he prophesied, Christianity wouldn’t be all over the world.

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

it was not a “coincidence”

It was the crucifixion (destruction on the True Temple) that caused Christianity to spread to every nation of the world.

John 2:19-21 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

The literal Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed just as Christ prophesied it would be.