This generation

[Zao is life]

Depends on what you mean by “return”.

1.)if the language is to be understood literally, then no.

2.) if the language is to be understood in the same way as when God metaphorically descended from heaven on the clouds to judge enemies and nations in the OT (2 Samuel 22, Isaiah 19, micah 1, etc…), then yes.

since I’m not in the habit of changing definitions of words, and Jesus did say “this generation”, option 2 has more support.

I see.

Did Jesus say that His disciples would be hated of all nations and killed and that many Christians would fall away and betray one another before His return?

 

[Zao is life]

If everything happened within that generation He was talking to, then it’s easy to reconcile. And hermeneutically, we have to because it’s how the audience would have understood it.

That would only be true if all who have fallen asleep in Christ have already risen from the dead. Have death and hades delivered up the dead in them and been cast into the Lake of Fire yet?

 

[rwb]

what is the Greek verb tense in James 5:8-9 for “draw near” and “stand” ?

In light of vs 7, which clearly helps, why don't you explain the Greek verb tense. Since I am not proficient in Greek I would be guessing. But you know I don't think we really need in depth understanding of the Greek verb tense to understand.

 

[rwb]

The question still is, how would they understand “this generation”? If they would understand it to mean 40 years, then those things must have happened within 40 years. The fact that the temple was destroyed in 40 years just seals the deal.

You're the one arguing how they would have understood "this generation" as being 40 years. How do you know that is how they understood it? I'm suggesting to you that they understood it to mean the seed of Abraham; i.e. the nation of Israel, would not pass away until all if fulfilled. And don't forget the destruction of the Temple was literal. Why would they believe anything Christ said would come to pass symbolically? It makes no sense.

 

[rwb]

Unless you were there among them at the time, how can you speak for them and know 100% what they took that to mean at the time? As to His audience at the time, according to the texts involved, His audience were only a handful of disciples and that He was speaking to them in private.

That's kind of how I see it also. It's obvious that not everything Christ said would come to pass, came to pass in 40 years. Therefore it is equally obvious that "this generation" cannot be interpreted as limited to the generation alive when Christ spoke these words from the Mt of Olives.

 

[claninja]

I see.

Did Jesus say that His disciples would be hated of all nations and killed and that many Christians would fall away and betray one another before His return?

yes.

Was the disciples’ generation hated throughout the nations? Yes, read the book of acts.

were those from the disciples generation killed and persecuted? Yes, read the book of acts

Did Christian’s begin to fall away during the disciples generation? Yes, see 1 john 2:18-20. It’s how they knew it was the “last hour”.

 

[rwb]

because they asked about the temple destruction, and Jesus told them about that. The temple was destroyed within their generation.

If you would stop looking at their generation as living in a certain time instead of the natural generation (seeds) of Abraham, then perhaps you could understand how Christ could say the natural seeds of Abraham would still be on the earth to witness and experience all that He said they would. And it would not be necessary to spiritualize the coming of Christ.

 

[claninja]

In light of vs 7, which clearly helps, why don't you explain the Greek verb tense. Since I am not proficient in Greek I would be guessing. But you know I don't think we really need in depth understanding of the Greek verb tense to understand.

per helps word studies

“1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence”

Barnes notes on the Bible in regards to James 5:8 (this is only used as evidence that my argument is not exclusive to FP, in case there is any misunderstanding)

“It is clear, I think, from this place, that the apostle expected that that which he understood by "the coming of the Lord" was soon to occur; for it was to be that by which they would obtain deliverance from the trials which they then endured. See James 5:7. Whether it means that he was soon to come to judgment, or to bring to an end the Jewish policy and to set up his kingdom on the earth, or that they would soon be removed by death, cannot be determined from the mere use of the language. The most natural interpretation of the passage, and one which will accord well with the time when the Epistle was written, is, that the predicted time of the destruction of Jerusalem Matthew 24 was at hand; that there were already indications that that would soon occur; and that there was a prevalent expectation among Christians that that event would be a release from many trials of persecution, and would be followed by the setting up of the Redeemer's kingdom.”

 

[claninja]

If you would stop looking at their generation as living in a certain time instead of the natural generation (seeds) of Abraham, then perhaps you could understand how Christ could say the natural seeds of Abraham would still be on the earth to witness and experience all that He said they would. And it would not be necessary to spiritualize the coming of Christ.

your conflating the word genea with genos. If Jesus meant Abraham’s seed, and not Jesus’ contemporaries, why isn’t the the word genos found in Matthew 24:34 instead?

 

[claninja]

But when He mentioned this generation He wasn't even talking about the temple at the time. If He was applying that to what would ultimately happen in 70 AD He would have mentioned this generation in a context involving the destroying of the city and temple. The following is where this fits if some of you are correct.

does the OT use metaphorical language to describe God descending on the clouds to judge enemies and nations?

 

[claninja]

If you would stop looking at their generation as living in a certain time instead of the natural generation (seeds) of Abraham, then perhaps you could understand how Christ could say the natural seeds of Abraham would still be on the earth to witness and experience all that He said they would. And it would not be necessary to spiritualize the coming of Christ.

did the OT use metaphorical language of God descending from heaven on the clouds to judge enemies and nations? Yes, so why would i not apply that same understanding here, especially when Jesus said “this generation will not pass away until all these things occur”?

 

[rwb]

your conflating the word genea with genos. If Jesus meant Abraham’s seed, and not Jesus’ contemporaries, why isn’t the the word genos found in Matthew 24:34 instead?

What's the difference between Abraham's seed, and Jesus' contemporaries? Did Abraham's seed, or Jesus' contemporaries end with that generation?

Contemporary according to Webster:

1. a marked by characteristics of the present period
b simultaneous
2. happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time

Contemporary (Entry 2 of 2)

1. one that is contemporary with another
2. one of the same or nearly the same age as another

 

[claninja]

What's the difference between Abraham's seed, and Jesus' contemporaries? Did Abraham's seed, or Jesus' contemporaries end with that generation?

Contemporary according to Webster:

1. a marked by characteristics of the present period
b simultaneous
2. happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time

Contemporary (Entry 2 of 2)

1. one that is contemporary with another
2. one of the same or nearly the same age as another

contemporaries, as you’ve correctly posted, are those living at the same time.

King David is of the seed of Abraham. Did king David live at the same time as Christ?

 

[rwb]

per helps word studies

“1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence”

Barnes notes on the Bible in regards to James 5:8 (this is only used as evidence that my argument is not exclusive to FP, in case there is any misunderstanding)

“It is clear, I think, from this place, that the apostle expected that that which he understood by "the coming of the Lord" was soon to occur; for it was to be that by which they would obtain deliverance from the trials which they then endured. See James 5:7. Whether it means that he was soon to come to judgment, or to bring to an end the Jewish policy and to set up his kingdom on the earth, or that they would soon be removed by death, cannot be determined from the mere use of the language. The most natural interpretation of the passage, and one which will accord well with the time when the Epistle was written, is, that the predicted time of the destruction of Jerusalem Matthew 24 was at hand; that there were already indications that that would soon occur; and that there was a prevalent expectation among Christians that that event would be a release from many trials of persecution, and would be followed by the setting up of the Redeemer's kingdom.”

There is no mystery in the Lord being near. His nearness since His coming is near in the same way the kingdom of heaven is at hand:

Matthew 3:2 (KJV) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The nearness of Christ, and His kingdom is by His gospel. Christ and His Kingdom is near/at hand any time one hears the gospel, and by the power of His preached Word and Spirit is born again. All who are in Christ have realized He is near to all who call on Him.

 

[Hammster]

Unless you were there among them at the time, how can you speak for them and know 100% what they took that to mean at the time? As to His audience at the time, according to the texts involved, His audience were only a handful of disciples and that He was speaking to them in private.

And the question remains, how would they have understood it? It’s plain language to a question they asked. When? And He said “this generation”. Not to mention, there are plenty of “you” statements. Not “they” statements.

 

[rwb]

your conflating the word genea with genos. If Jesus meant Abraham’s seed, and not Jesus’ contemporaries, why isn’t the the word genos found in Matthew 24:34 instead?

The Greek word genea is derived from genos.

γένος génos, ghen'-os

from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

 

[Hammster]

Did Jesus return within Jesus' generation?

Since scripture says that those events would take place in “this generation”, He had to have come in some sense.

 

[Hammster]

That would only be true if all who have fallen asleep in Christ have already risen from the dead. Have death and hades delivered up the dead in them and been cast into the Lake of Fire yet?

Except He didn’t say those things had to happen within that generation.

 

[rwb]

does the OT use metaphorical language to describe God descending on the clouds to judge enemies and nations?

The Old Testament prophets were looking for an age/era to come that would be the Day of the Lord. So they describe what will come to pass within that age/era when the Day of the Lord finally comes. Since the first advent of Christ, we look not for an age/era to come, but for the Day, one day, when Christ will come again.

 

[claninja]

The Greek word genea is derived from genos.

γένος génos, ghen'-os

from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

genea is not the same word. The LXX and the NT use genea differently than genos. Genos is not found in Matthew 24:34