This generation

[rwb]

"This Generation" speaks of those who are the biological offspring of Abraham. Christ is telling whosoever reads and understands, the literal offspring of Abraham will not pass away until Christ returns again on the last day. Israel, as an ethnic people, as I understand the prophesy, will remain a nation on this earth until Christ comes again.

As so many have already shown 'generation' is translated from the Greek word:

γενεά geneá, ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

This originates from:
γένος génos, ghen'-os
from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Which comes from:
γίνομαι gínomai, ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):—arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, × soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

I also see validity in translating 'this generation' as Israel of the flesh, the natural, biological seed(s) of Abraham. They will continue to be part of Israel of faith, the supernatural Seed (Christ) of Abraham until the last day when Christ returns to separate the good from the bad. Matthew 13:41 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 23:36-39 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If we try to force 'this generation' to appx forty years, it is impossible to reconcile with the abundance of Scripture, and forces contradiction upon contradiction into the Word of God.

 

[Hammster]

If we try to force 'this generation' to appx forty years, it is impossible to reconcile with the abundance of Scripture, and forces contradiction upon contradiction into the Word of God.

If everything happened within that generation He was talking to, then it’s easy to reconcile. And hermeneutically, we have to because it’s how the audience would have understood it.

 

[rwb]

If everything happened within that generation He was talking to, then it’s easy to reconcile. And hermeneutically, we have to because it’s how the audience would have understood it.

Is it really easy to harmonize? Or does harmonizing mean Preterists must pick and choose (based on your understanding of certain verses) what is literally fulfilled and what must be spiritually discerned?

 

[Hammster]

Is it really easy to harmonize? Or does harmonizing mean Preterists must pick and choose (based on your understanding of certain verses) what is literally fulfilled and what must be spiritually discerned?

Maybe easy isn’t the correct word. However, it’s what we should do because proper hermeneutics dictate that we understand it the way the original audience understood it.

 

[rwb]

Maybe easy isn’t the correct word. However, it’s what we should do because proper hermeneutics dictate that we understand it the way the original audience understood it.

The first century Jews certainly understood what became of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. Because those who lived, lived through that destruction, experiencing it themselves. But the same did not experience the elect being gathered from one end of heaven to the other, nor did they experience heaven and earth pass away (vs 35), but they would have understood that Christ didn't mean they too would literally experience these things??? You really think they understood this symbolically even though they neither literally saw, or experienced them?

This verse certainly seems to say those whom Christ was speaking to would literally see ALL THESE THINGS as literally as they experienced the war that leveled both the Temple and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[claninja]

This verse certainly seems to say those whom Christ was speaking to would literally see ALL THESE THINGS as literally as they experienced the war that leveled both the Temple and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The leveling of the temple was the coming of Christ in judgement. Jesus’ generation experienced that.


matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near . Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge has stood at the door!

 

[rwb]

The leveling of the temple was the coming of Christ in judgement. Jesus’ generation experienced that.


matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near . Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge has stood at the door!

The leveling of the Temple and Jerusalem comes from the wrath of God He promised would come to them because they turned away from God, and became an abomination before Him. The Judgment that comes when Christ comes again will happen ONCE, at the end of this age. But the Judgment to come will not be local, it will be universal.
The elect of God will ascend to Christ, the judgment will be destruction to those not expecting Christ' return, this earth and everything, and everyone in it will be burned up, and then there will be new heavens and a new earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This prophesy has not happened, and will not happen until the last trumpet sounds that Christ has returned in glory and judgment, this judgment will be literal/physical and complete.

 

[claninja]

The leveling of the Temple and Jerusalem comes from the wrath of God He promised would come to them because they turned away from God, and became an abomination before Him. The Judgment that comes when Christ comes again will happen ONCE, at the end of this age. But the Judgment to come will not be local, it will be universal.
The elect of God will ascend to Christ, the judgment will be destruction to those not expecting Christ' return, this earth and everything, and everyone in it will be burned up, and then there will be new heavens and a new earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This prophesy has not happened, and will not happen until the last trumpet sounds that Christ has returned in glory and judgment, this judgment will be literal/physical and complete.

This doesn’t address James 5:8-9

 

[rwb]

This doesn’t address James 5:8-9

James 5:8-9 (KJV) Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Your translation:

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near . Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge has stood at the door!

How interesting that one translation indicates future, while the other past tense? Perhaps verse 7 may help because verse 8-9 is a continuation of what is here speaking of the coming of the Lord in the future tense. Until he receive the early and latter rain.

James 5:7 (KJV) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Even the ASV which is similar or may be the translation you use, indicates the Lord's coming in the future tense. Until the coming of both the early and latter rain.

James 5:7 (ASV) Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain.

 

[DavidPT]

The miracle you try to work with the words the holy place is fake. You're saying Jesus never mentioned this about such an important sign: "I'm calling it the holy place now but it won't be the holy place anymore when My words are fulfilled."

Clearly, the AOD involves a holy place when it is being fulfilled. If meaning the 2nd temple, was this temple still a holy place in 70 AD prior to it being destroyed? If we apply these things spiritually, would there be a temple that is still a holy place when the AOD begins affecting it? You and I know the answer to that, but apparently some others don't. The 2nd temple was not a holy place in 70 AD, therefore this prophecy couldn't remotely involve the 2nd temple.

The OD covers events during Christ's ascension through His coming in the end of this age and what all He does once He returns, and that according to a lot of these interpretations in this thread, Jesus isn't even going to focus on anything concerning the temple involving what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 records, all of His focus is going to be on the 2nd temple only. Pretersists might see 2 Thessalonians 2:4 relating to the 2nd temple, but some of these other interpreters around here certainly don't, such as the poster you are addressing in this post. Therefore, I don't know why SJ is siding with Preterists in regards to the AOD recorded in Matthew 24 when he is at least understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:4 along the same lines like you and I are rather than how Preterists might understand 2 Thessalonians 2:4, or how Pretribbers might understand that passage since they take it to mean a literal temple, a rebuilt one.

 

[claninja]

James 5:8-9 (KJV) Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Your translation:

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near . Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge has stood at the door!

How interesting that one translation indicates future, while the other past tense? Perhaps verse 7 may help because verse 8-9 is a continuation of what is here speaking of the coming of the Lord in the future tense. Until he receive the early and latter rain.

James 5:7 (KJV) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Even the ASV which is similar or may be the translation you use, indicates the Lord's coming in the future tense. Until the coming of both the early and latter rain.

James 5:7 (ASV) Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain.

what is the Greek verb tense in James 5:8-9 for “draw near” and “stand” ?

 

[Hammster]

The first century Jews certainly understood what became of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. Because those who lived, lived through that destruction, experiencing it themselves. But the same did not experience the elect being gathered from one end of heaven to the other, nor did they experience heaven and earth pass away (vs 35), but they would have understood that Christ didn't mean they too would literally experience these things??? You really think they understood this symbolically even though they neither literally saw, or experienced them?

This verse certainly seems to say those whom Christ was speaking to would literally see ALL THESE THINGS as literally as they experienced the war that leveled both the Temple and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The question still is, how would they understand “this generation”? If they would understand it to mean 40 years, then those things must have happened within 40 years. The fact that the temple was destroyed in 40 years just seals the deal.

 

[DavidPT]

The question still is, how would they understand “this generation”? If they would understand it to mean 40 years, then those things must have happened within 40 years. The fact that the temple was destroyed in 40 years just seals the deal.

Unless you were there among them at the time, how can you speak for them and know 100% what they took that to mean at the time? As to His audience at the time, according to the texts involved, His audience were only a handful of disciples and that He was speaking to them in private.

 

[claninja]

Unless you were there among them at the time, how can you speak for them and know 100% what they took that to mean at the time? As to His audience at the time, according to the texts involved, His audience were only a handful of disciples and that He was speaking to them in private.

because they asked about the temple destruction, and Jesus told them about that. The temple was destroyed within their generation.

 

[Zao is life]

Clearly, the AOD involves a holy place when it is being fulfilled. If meaning the 2nd temple, was this temple still a holy place in 70 AD prior to it being destroyed? If we apply these things spiritually, would there be a temple that is still a holy place when the AOD begins affecting it? You and I know the answer to that, but apparently some others don't. The 2nd temple was not a holy place in 70 AD, therefore this prophecy couldn't remotely involve the 2nd temple.

The OD covers events during Christ's ascension through His coming in the end of this age and what all He does once He returns, and that according to a lot of these interpretations in this thread, Jesus isn't even going to focus on anything concerning the temple involving what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 records, all of His focus is going to be on the 2nd temple only. Pretersists might see 2 Thessalonians 2:4 relating to the 2nd temple, but some of these other interpreters around here certainly don't, such as the poster you are addressing in this post. Therefore, I don't know why SJ is siding with Preterists in regards to the AOD recorded in Matthew 24 when he is at least understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:4 along the same lines like you and I are rather than how Preterists might understand 2 Thessalonians 2:4, or how Pretribbers might understand that passage since they take it to mean a literal temple, a rebuilt one.

Yes, I noticed too how some have the same understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2 that you and I do, but somehow relate the AOD to the 2nd temple, and it baffles me how they can't see it doesn't work with the grammar of the text in Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05119
τότε tóte, tot'-eh
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753;
the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then.

9 Then [tóte] they will deliver you up to tribulation [thlîpsis] and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.
15 Therefore [oûn] when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).

*StrongsGreek*]
03767
οὖν oûn, oon
apparently a primary word;
(adverbially) certainly, or (conjunctionally) accordingly:--and (so, truly), but, now (then), so (likewise then), then, therefore, verily, wherefore.

SJ places verses 9 & 14 at the end of the Age and the return of Christ, but then he rips verse 15 out of its contextual place and forces it back into 70 A.D in a "back-to-the-future" kind of way, so that he doesn't interpret Matthew 24:15 in the same way he interprets 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Yet 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew are saying the same things:

Both passages involve the time of the end.
Both passages involve apostasy.
Both passages involve lawlessness of the part of Christians.
Both passages are talking about events leading up to the coming of the Son of man.
Both passages involve an abomination in the temple of God (i.e the holy place).

 

[Zao is life]

because they asked about the temple destruction, and Jesus told them about that. The temple was destroyed within their generation.

Jesus told them about the temple's destruction AND about something else.

No need to tell you what the AND part is because you ignore it as though it's not there.

 

[claninja]

Jesus told them about the temple's destruction AND about something else.

No need to tell you what the AND part is because you ignore it as though it's not there.

Was the temple destroyed within Jesus’ generation?

 

[Zao is life]

Was the temple destroyed within Jesus’ generation?

Did Jesus return within Jesus' generation?

 

[claninja]

Did Jesus return within Jesus' generation?

Depends on what you mean by “return”.

1.)if the language is to be understood literally, then no.

2.) if the language is to be understood in the same way as when God metaphorically descended from heaven on the clouds to judge enemies and nations in the OT (2 Samuel 22, Isaiah 19, micah 1, etc…), then yes.

since I’m not in the habit of changing definitions of words, and Jesus did say “this generation”, option 2 has more support.

 

[DavidPT]

because they asked about the temple destruction, and Jesus told them about that. The temple was destroyed within their generation.

But when He mentioned this generation He wasn't even talking about the temple at the time. If He was applying that to what would ultimately happen in 70 AD He would have mentioned this generation in a context involving the destroying of the city and temple. The following is where this fits if some of you are correct.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

If He had said what He said in verse 32 before what He said in verse 24 rather than after, that could certainly be taken to mean that He was only applying that to what all verse 20-23 is involving. But He did not say that before verse 24, He said it after. He did not say this generation in a context involving what verses 20-23 are involving. Jesus was speaking of things pertaining to the end of this present age when He mentioned this generation. He wasn't still speaking of events pertaining to the first century.

It is wrong to apply everything recorded in the OD to the first century only and it is wrong to apply everything recorded in the OD to the end of this age only. The OD involves events during His ascension through His return and what all He does when He returns. The time of His ascension doesn't end in 70 AD. Once 70 AD came and went, He was still bodily in heaven, thus the time of His ascension continued. And to this day He is still bodily in heaven, thus we are still in the days involving the time of His ascension.