This generation

[Hammster]

An immediate problem with your reasoning here is that in the new testament it clearly tells us Christ's return will be in the same manner that He left. When He left He was visibly seen ascending in the clouds, and vs 30 tells us all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and "they shall see Him".

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Greek word translated "they shall see" is - 3700. ὀπτάνομαι optanomai (optánomai) and means appear, look, see, shew self.
That did not happen in 70 AD.

I never argued that it did. What’s described in Acts is the second advent. That’s not the same as His coming on the clouds in Mathew 24.

 

[rwb]

I never argued that it did. What’s described in Acts is the second advent. That’s not the same as His coming on the clouds in Mathew 24.

How do you prove the two are not speaking of the same (one) day of the Lord coming in wrath, and to give reward to His saints? The Old Testament prophets speak of the day of the Lord coming as a new age, the eternal/everlasting age; i.e. these last day(s). The New Testament seeks A day of the Lord coming at the end of this age; these last day(s). There are only two ages, this age and the one to come. This age has an end, the age to come eternal.

 

[parousia70]

How do you prove the two are not speaking of the same (one) day of the Lord coming in wrath, and to give reward to His saints? The Old Testament prophets speak of the day of the Lord coming as a new age, the eternal/everlasting age; i.e. these last day(s). The New Testament seeks A day of the Lord coming at the end of this age; these last day(s). There are only two ages, this age and the one to come. This age has an end, the age to come eternal.

There have been Several "Day of the Lord" wrath events In History.

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past
"Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah
tells us:

Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow,
which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me
in the day of his fierce anger.

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud
in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the
beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the
day of his anger

Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my
virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast
slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed,
and not pitied.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about,
so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor
remained

**Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone
SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of
course not. This is how the prophets spoke.**

Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the
Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC,
saying:

Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold
shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be
able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of
Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither
fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their
iniquity.

And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that
prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their
own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the
Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their
own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets
are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into
the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel

to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of
Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."

Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7

The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of
Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of
Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of
Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the
surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and
animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of
the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut
off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I
will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the
inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal
from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan
priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the
housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also
swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following
Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired
after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for
the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a
sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests. 


Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in
scripture. The prophets speak of Jehovah who comes down and
does a whole host of "physical" things. Yet did any
one SEE Yahweh do these things? Was Zephaniah lying?
This scripture goes on all the way to the end of Zephaniah
chapter two, and be sure to note that the judgments that
ensue upon the other surrounding nations are also a past
Day of Yahweh event (1:14; 2:2-3).

So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one
example of MANY past day of the LORD events.

The N.T. teaches that Christ's Judgment Coming in AD70 was to be a "Day of
Yahweh" event. This perfectly coincides with AD 67-70, which
was the greatest Day of the Lord in history.

Jesus wielded Rome's powers as Jehovah had wielded the
powers and kings of Babylon and Persia as his own anointed
servants (Jer 25:9; Isa 44:28-45:13). That's how the Day of
the Lord judgments work. Rome continued so that the Church
would over take it as the stone of Daniel 2 that became a
giant mountain over the whole earth. The pagan Roman Empire
was destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's a reasonable point, yet there could be other ways He might do that than literally setting the planet ablaze. There is the following in Ezekiel 38, for instance.


Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

This verse says---and every wall shall fall to the ground. That should include crack houses, etc. Massive earthquakes could cause that, and maybe God's presence is what brings about the earthquakes?

And who is going to clean up all the rubble after the walls, etc. come down and how would that be done?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Just as the flood was a literal event, I believe the destruction of the city and sanctuary was a literal event

Are you equating the city and the sanctuary with heaven and earth then?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

paul Stated there were past ages and there are future ages. I don’t see this as different than this age and the age the come.

Math example to clarify:

1/1 = 1

10/10 = 1

Are you purposely trying to avoid addressing the argument I'm making regarding this age and the age to come? Jesus talked about this age in terms of this temporal age when people get married and they die. He contrasted that with the eternal age to come that begins after the resurrection of the dead occurs and He identified that age as being the time when people will no longer get married or die. Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

 

[rwb]

There have been Several "Day of the Lord" wrath events In History.

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past
"Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah
tells us:

Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow,
which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me
in the day of his fierce anger.

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud
in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the
beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the
day of his anger

Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my
virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast
slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed,
and not pitied.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about,
so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor
remained

**Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone
SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of
course not. This is how the prophets spoke.**

Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the
Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC,
saying:

Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold
shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be
able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of
Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither
fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their
iniquity.

And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that
prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their
own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the
Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their
own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets
are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into
the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel

to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of
Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."

Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7

The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of
Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of
Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of
Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the
surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and
animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of
the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut
off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I
will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the
inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal
from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan
priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the
housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also
swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following
Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired
after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for
the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a
sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests. 


Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in
scripture. The prophets speak of Jehovah who comes down and
does a whole host of "physical" things. Yet did any
one SEE Yahweh do these things? Was Zephaniah lying?
This scripture goes on all the way to the end of Zephaniah
chapter two, and be sure to note that the judgments that
ensue upon the other surrounding nations are also a past
Day of Yahweh event (1:14; 2:2-3).

So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one
example of MANY past day of the LORD events.

The N.T. teaches that Christ's Judgment Coming in AD70 was to be a "Day of
Yahweh" event. This perfectly coincides with AD 67-70, which
was the greatest Day of the Lord in history.

Jesus wielded Rome's powers as Jehovah had wielded the
powers and kings of Babylon and Persia as his own anointed
servants (Jer 25:9; Isa 44:28-45:13). That's how the Day of
the Lord judgments work. Rome continued so that the Church
would over take it as the stone of Daniel 2 that became a
giant mountain over the whole earth. The pagan Roman Empire
was destroyed.

You're confusing the day of wrath from the Almighty with The Day of the Lord, our Messiah would come to redeem His people, that the prophets foretell. When we read of the wrath from the Almighty as promised retribution for disobedience, it is rightly called the day of the Lord's wrath, but it is not the Day of the Lord coming as Messiah, nor is it the day of the Lord coming again at the end of the age that we read about in various passages in the New Testament.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You don’t agree that genea means generation?

Genea meaning generation is just how thayers and strong’s “opinion”?

Are you being serious with these questions? Of course that's the one of the definitions for genea and I never said otherwise. But, it's not the only one. How many times do I need to point that out before you get that?

Please do tell what sources you use to foist your position?

The Bible and the Holy Spirit. I look at commentaries and lexicons and such occasionally, but they are not the authors of scripture. Those resources can contain both facts, which are certainly helpful, but also opinions that I'm free to disagree with and disregard.

 

[parousia70]

You're confusing the day of wrath from the Almighty with The Day of the Lord, our Messiah would come to redeem His people, that the prophets foretell. When we read of the wrath from the Almighty as promised retribution for disobedience, it is rightly called the day of the Lord's wrath, but it is not the Day of the Lord coming as Messiah, nor is it the day of the Lord coming again at the end of the age that we read about in various passages in the New Testament.

So you'd say Isaiah 13:13 is NOT foretelling about the "Day of the Lord Coming as Messiah" then?

Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The text makes it clear, though.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:32-34

There’s no real way to read this any other way. The second person plurals indicates that He was intending for His audience to understand He was talking about them.

Yes, there is another way to read it, despite your claim. He made it clear that no one knew the day or hour that His coming at the end of the age when this generation would pass away would occur (Matt 24:36). So, with that in mind, how could He have known that the ones He was talking to would still be around when this generation passed away? He didn't know that, as evidenced by what He said after that in verses like Matthew 24:36. So, He was saying "you" in the general sense (as in you, or whoever is alive when His coming is near) in that passage.

And DavidPT shared a verse in another post from Mark 13 (verse 37) that helps support what I'm saying.

Mark 13:35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”.

Using your logic, we'd conclude that Jesus was only telling those He was talking to to watch for His coming in Mark 13:35, but verse 37 makes it clear that He was not just talking to them as if only they needed to watch for it, but to "everyone". The fact that even He didn't know when He was coming (only the Father did - Matt 24:36) proves that He could not possibly have only been talking to and about them.

 

[Hammster]

So, with that in mind, how could He have known that the ones He was talking to would still be around when this generation passed away?

I’ll address this as a serious question.

Jesus said that He did not know the specific day and hour. That’s why He told them to pray that it wouldn’t happen in winter or during the Sabbath. He also said that it would happen within that generation. So He is saying that He knows the big picture, that it will happen within 40 years, but He doesn’t know the specific day it will happen. He does tell them what to look for, though.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's just a false claim Claninja makes. Wrath is only mentioned when the armies gather around Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24). The entire context of the rest of Luke and Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is talking about the tribulation and great tribulation of the saints.

People ignore context where and when it pleases them.

God's wrath is clearly in view in Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20. They are parallel passages to Luke 21:20-24. What do you think the reason is that Jesus said those in Judea had to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15? Can it be for any other reason but to avoid God's wrath that came against Jerusalem by way of the Roman armies?

Jesus was asked two questions. One relating to the destruction of the temple buildings and one related to His coming at the end of the age. The first question was answered in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I’ll address this as a serious question.

As you should. If it wasn't a serious question I would have made that clear.

Jesus said that He did not know the specific day and hour. That’s why He told them to pray that it wouldn’t happen in winter or during the Sabbath. He also said that it would happen within that generation. So He is saying that He knows the big picture, that it will happen within 40 years, but He doesn’t know the specific day it will happen. He does tell them what to look for, though.

Why didn't you address the rest of what I said? You try to make the argument that when He said "you" it means He was only addressing the ones who were physically present at the time, but Mark 13:37 makes it clear that He was talking to everyone, which means He was referring to whoever was around when the things occurred that would indicate His coming and the passing away of this generation (and heaven and earth) were near.

By saying "you", He was not implying that this generation would pass away in the lifetimes of those who were physically present at the time, since we know He was talking to "everyone" (Mark 13:37) and telling everyone (all believers) from that point on to watch for His coming at the end of the age at which point heaven and earth and this generation will pass away.

 

[Zao is life]

God's wrath is clearly in view in Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20. They are parallel passages to Luke 21:20-24. What do you think the reason is that Jesus said those in Judea had to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15? Can it be for any other reason but to avoid God's wrath that came against Jerusalem by way of the Roman armies?

There are two things being spoken of in those verses you quote: the Olivet Discourse: God's wrath against Jerusalem and the tribulation of the saints.

SUBJECTS:

The coming destruction of the temple (the subject that introduced the Lord's Discourse).

(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).
(ii) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the coming wrath of God upon the city (Luke 21:20-24) *

(iii) The coming of the Son of man at the end of the Age (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).
(iv) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).

(v) The coming tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-44; Mark 13:9-13).

* Luke uses the words distress and wrath in Luke 21:20-24 (not the word tribulation).

It's important to take note of the fact that whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to talk about the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem when it was surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-24), the tribulation and persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is being spoken about in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-31, and Mark 13:9 & 11-13.

 

[Hammster]

As you should. If it wasn't a serious question I would have made that clear.

Why didn't you address the rest of what I said? You try to make the argument that when He said "you" it means He was only addressing the ones who were physically present at the time, but Mark 13:37 makes it clear that He was talking to everyone, which means He was referring to whoever was around when the things occurred that would indicate His coming and the passing away of this generation (and heaven and earth) were near.

By saying "you", He was not implying that this generation would pass away in their lifetimes, since we know He was talking to "everyone" (Mark 13:37) and telling everyone (all believers) from that point on to watch for His coming at the end of the age at which point heaven and earth and this generation will pass away.

I address questions. I have no idea why one would ask my what I think and then not have the courtesy to await my reply. So I answered your specific question.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I address questions. I have no idea why one would ask my what I think and then not have the courtesy to await my reply. So I answered your specific question.

I don't know what you're talking about. How did I not wait for your reply? Were you planning to reply again to that same post to address the rest of what I said?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There are two things being spoken of in those verses you quote: the Olivet Discourse: God's wrath against Jerusalem and the tribulation of the saints.

SUBJECTS:

The coming destruction of the temple (the subject that introduced the Lord's Discourse).

(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).
(ii) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the coming wrath of God upon the city (Luke 21:20-24) *

(iii) The coming of the Son of man at the end of the Age (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).
(iv) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).

(v) The coming tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-44; Mark 13:9-13).

* Luke uses the words distress and wrath in Luke 21:20-24 (not the word tribulation).

It's important to take note of the fact that whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to talk about the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem when it was surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-24), the tribulation and persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is being spoken about in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-31, and Mark 13:9 & 11-13.

What do you think the reason is that Jesus said those in Judea had to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15? Can it be for any other reason but to avoid God's wrath that came against Jerusalem by way of the Roman armies?

 

[parousia70]

He made it clear that no one knew the day or hour that His coming at the end of the age when this generation would pass away would occur (Matt 24:36). So, with that in mind, how could He have known that the ones He was talking to would still be around when this generation passed away?

Using your Logic, when My wife was pregnant we would have had absolutely no way of knowing that sometime within approximately 9 months after conception, she was going to give birth.
By your logic, since we had no advance knowledge of the day or hour that birth would take place, it would be impossible for us to know anything true and correct about the general time frame.

Do I have that correct?

 

[DavidPT]

What do you think the reason is that Jesus said those in Judea had to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15? Can it be for any other reason but to avoid God's wrath that came against Jerusalem by way of the Roman armies?

How can you be 100% certain He was even meaning in a literal sense? What about what He said in verse 29, for instance? Was He meaning in a literal sense that literal stars fall out of the sky? The more I think about it though, based on your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10, you very well might take that in a literal sense for all I know, that literal stars fall out of the sky. As to me, I don't take it to literally be meaning stars are falling out of the sky, because how is it that the stars can fall like that, but that the earth remains in it's place at the time? When looking at the earth from the perspective of outer space surrounding it, the earth is just as much hanging in space as are the stars. If stars are literally falling, so should the earth be as well.

 

[Zao is life]

What do you think the reason is that Jesus said those in Judea had to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15? Can it be for any other reason but to avoid God's wrath that came against Jerusalem by way of the Roman armies?

They were told to flee when they see the AOD, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the type of the man of sin, and the AOD has not yet occurred.

It seems you really are determined to ignore the fact that from Matthew 24:9 which speaks of the tribulation of the saints (not of the Jews), the rest of the passage is joined together by the words "and"; "therefore"; "but"; "for"' and "because". That's Matthew 24:29-31 and the same theme is continued beyond that including verse 34's "this generation".

You seem to have also fallen into the trap of not allowing the rest of the New Testament to interpret Matthew 24, but seek to isolate and interpret Matthew 24 on its own - and even if you do that, you are going to make yourself guilty of willful ignorance if you ignore the fact that Matthew 24:9 begins to speak about the tribulation of the saints and the elect continue to be mentioned throughout:

Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect). Matthew 24:15-20 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation, but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The elect are shown to be present from the beginning of the (great) tribulation, to the end, and it is indeed the elect who are experiencing the (great) tribulation.

Great tribulation (megas thlipsis) is mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of the saints. The other two are in the Revelation.

@Spiritual Jew Only Luke 21:20-24 speaks about the tribulation of the Jews and calls this period the great distress they would face when the wrath of God comes upon the city. The rest of Luke is talking about the persecution of the saints and their redemption at the time of the return of Christ, Matthew and Mark concentrate on the tribulation of the saints. Matthew mentions nothing about the tribulation of the Jews after recording the Lord's statement regarding the coming destruction of the temple.