This generation

[Hammster]

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. ἀπὸ τότε ἤρξατο ὁ ἰησοῦς κηρύσσειν καὶ λέγειν, μετανοεῖτε, ἤγγικεν γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν.

See? Different words for this and that.

 

[claninja]

It matters for proof of your premise regarding the words "this generation". You said Jesus would have said "that generation" if He were speaking of another generation, so now you have to show that Greek has different words for "this generation" and "that generation", instead of only one word that could mean either "this generation" or "that generation".

If the Greek has only one word for both "this generation" and "that generation" then you cannot prove what you say.

hebrews 3:10 τῇ (the) γενεᾷ (generation) ἐκείνῃ (that)

10Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.

this quotation from Hebrews is from psalm 95

psalm 95:10 (LXX) : τῇ (the) γενεᾷ (generation) ἐκείνῃ (that)

versus

Mathew 24:34 ἡ(the) γενεὰ(Generation) αὕτη(this)

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 1:1 (KJVSL) The book βίβλος of the generation γένεσις of Jesus Ἰησοῦς Christ Χριστός, the son υἱός of David Δαβίδ, the son υἱός of Abraham Ἀβραάμ.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1078. γένεσις genesis (génesis)
nativity; figuratively, nature:—generation, nature(-ral).

Matthew 1:17 (KJVSL) So οὖν all πᾶς the generations γενεά from ἀπό Abraham Ἀβραάμ to ἕως David Δαβίδ are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά; and καί from ἀπό David Δαβίδ until ἕως the carrying away μετοικεσία into Babylon Βαβυλών are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά; and καί from ἀπό the carrying away μετοικεσία into Babylon Βαβυλών unto ἕως Christ Χριστός are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1074. γενεά genea (geneá)
a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

Notice the generation (singular) of Christ coming from Abraham to Christ is one natural people according to flesh. These natural/native people make up fourteen generations or ages of people which is the time span of each consecutive generation or age that Christ came from. These are natural/native people originating from one seed, Abraham.

Matthew 24:34 (KJVSL) Verily ἀμήν I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, This οὗτος generation γενεά shall not οὐ μή pass παρέρχομαι, till ἄν ἕως all πᾶς these things ταῦτα be fulfilled γίνομαι.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3778. οὗτος houtos (hoûtos)
he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1074. γενεά genea (geneá)
age, generation, nation, time

It is the natural seed of Abraham that Christ is speaking of, and to. There is no biblical record of the natural/native seed of Abraham after Christ. But we know Abraham's natural seed has not ended because Israel is still a native people on earth. The native seed of Abraham has not passed away! Therefore we can say with confidence that all the things Christ spoke of has NOT yet been fulfilled.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 1:1 (KJVSL) The book βίβλος of the generation γένεσις of Jesus Ἰησοῦς Christ Χριστός, the son υἱός of David Δαβίδ, the son υἱός of Abraham Ἀβραάμ.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1078. γένεσις genesis (génesis)
nativity; figuratively, nature:—generation, nature(-ral).

Matthew 1:17 (KJVSL) So οὖν all πᾶς the generations γενεά from ἀπό Abraham Ἀβραάμ to ἕως David Δαβίδ are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά; and καί from ἀπό David Δαβίδ until ἕως the carrying away μετοικεσία into Babylon Βαβυλών are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά; and καί from ἀπό the carrying away μετοικεσία into Babylon Βαβυλών unto ἕως Christ Χριστός are fourteen δεκατέσσαρες generations γενεά.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1074. γενεά genea (geneá)
a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

Notice the generation (singular) of Christ coming from Abraham to Christ is one natural people according to flesh. These natural/native people make up fourteen generations or ages of people which is the time span of each consecutive generation or age that Christ came from. These are natural/native people originating from one seed, Abraham.

Matthew 24:34 (KJVSL) Verily ἀμήν I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, This οὗτος generation γενεά shall not οὐ μή pass παρέρχομαι, till ἄν ἕως all πᾶς these things ταῦτα be fulfilled γίνομαι.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3778. οὗτος houtos (hoûtos)
he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1074. γενεά genea (geneá)
age, generation, nation, time

It is the natural seed of Abraham that Christ is speaking of, and to. There is no biblical record of the natural/native seed of Abraham after Christ. But we know Abraham's natural seed has not ended because Israel is still a native people on earth. The native seed of Abraham has not passed away! Therefore we can say with confidence that all the things Christ spoke of has NOT yet been fulfilled.

We can because He said this generation.

 

[Zao is life]

hebrews 3:10 τῇ (the) γενεᾷ (generation) ἐκείνῃ (that)

10Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.

this quotation from Hebrews is from psalm 95

psalm 95:10 (LXX) : τῇ (the) γενεᾷ (generation) ἐκείνῃ (that)

versus

Mathew 24:34 ἡ(the) γενεὰ(Generation) αὕτη(this)

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.

Thanks. Even so, this generation in Matthew 24 is the generation of saints who would go through the tribulation and great tribulation Jesus had just told them about, and from verse 9 of Matthew 24 the passage is joined together by the words "and"; "therefore"; "but"; "for" and "because".

It's the great tribulation of the saints that they would face in a day when they had become hated by all nations for His names' sake (verses 9; 21-22; 29-31). Jesus said that at that time (toteh) many will skandalizo (fall away) and will betray and hate one another, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many saints will grow cold.

The evidence for the last days mentioned in Hebrews 1:1-3 being a reference to the 40 years in-between the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in A.D 70 is good, but aside from the Lord's statement at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse regarding the Temple, only Luke 21:20-24 says anything about what would befall the Jews at Jerusalem.

.. and the Greek word naos is never used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil (and only used for the church and the temple in heaven) (whereas the word hieron is used in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the tearing of the veil). This shows clearly that the temple that the man of sin would seat himself up in is the church, and the same goes for the holy city and temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2.

.. and regardless of the evidence to the contrary, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is interpreted by Preterists and Partial Preterists as speaking about the temple in Jerusalem, and used as proof texts for what Preterism and Partial Preterism claims (no difference there between them and Dispensational Premillennialists, except for the timing of events),

So I err on the side of caution with regard to which generation is meant that Jesus said would experience the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-31, due to a lack of evidence that it's talking about the 1st century only, and no one else.

I said caution because Matthew 24 remains for me a passage that is extremely difficult to place in "time".

 

[rwb]

We can because He said this generation.

Can you prove through Scripture that there are no natural generations coming from "this" generation living then? If they exist, they too would belong to "this generation".

 

[Zao is life]

We can because He said this generation.

Yes, I agree that we can't deny the Greek grammar. The same goes for the use of the words hieron and naos for "Temple" and the fact that both are used in reference to the Temple at Jerusalem up to the time of the tearing of the veil, but only hieron continues to be used for that Temple after this. From then on, naos is only used in reference to the church and the temple in heaven. So this should affect the way we interpret the naos in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2, in exactly the same way that if we want to be honest with the scriptures then we have to acknowledge that your OP together with the Greek adjective accompanying the word generation in Matthew 24:34 implies the generation Jesus was speaking to.

We can't be honest with the scriptures here, but dishonest there, in order to get scripture to comply with one or the other eschatological premise.

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 24
29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

From Josephus, “The War of the Jews” Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3:-

CHARIOTS AND TROOPS OF SOLDIERS IN THEIR ARMOUR WERE SEEN RUNNING ABOUT AMONG THE CLOUDS, AND SURROUNDING CITIES.

QUOTE
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
UNQUOTE

A GREAT SWORD AND A COMET APPEARS IN THE SKY ABOVE JERUSALEM AD 66-67

QUOTE
Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
UNQUOTE
Something resembling a sword to some could also resemble a cross to others.

Matthew 24:29 I believe is metaphor and the stars falling from the heaven I believe refers to the saints and to apostasy.

Matthew 24 remains for me the most difficult passage to date. Because it could refer at one and the same time to two different periods thousands of years apart, but that cannot be proved.

 

[Zao is life]

Did the following events occur during the disciples’ generation?

1.) persecutions
2.) famine
3.) earthquakes
4.) wars
5.) gosple preached throughout Roman world
6.) false prophets
7.) temple destruction

Yes, they did.

So now I have questions for you:

1. Did the man of sin seat himself up in the church (naos)? The Greek word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem in the verses talking about the tearing of the veil. From then on it's referring only the the church and the temple in heaven.

2. Does the Revelation refer to Babylon the Great as the holy city? If so, how many times?
3. Does the Revelation refer to New Jerusalem as the holy city? If so, how many times?

I'll help you:

2. The Revelation never refers to Babylon the Great as the holy city.
3. Aside from Revelation 11:2, the Revelation refers to New Jerusalem as the holy city three more times.

4. Why would Revelation 11:1-2 use the Greek word naos for temple if it's referring to the temple in Jerusalem, when all other verses in the Revelation use that word in reference to the heavenly temple only, and that word is never again used for the temple in Jerusalem following the verses that talk about the tearing of the veil?

 

[rwb]

Yes, I agree that we can't deny the Greek grammar. The same goes for the use of the words hieron and naos for "Temple" and the fact that both are used in reference to the Temple at Jerusalem up to the time of the tearing of the veil, but only hieron continues to be used for that Temple after this. From then on, naos is only used in reference to the church and the temple in heaven. So this should affect the way we interpret the naos in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2, in exactly the same way that if we want to be honest with the scriptures then we have to acknowledge that your OP together with the Greek adjective accompanying the word generation in Matthew 24:34 implies the generation Jesus was speaking to.

We can't be honest with the scriptures here, but dishonest there, in order to get scripture to comply with one or the other eschatological premise.

I agree. However this generation has not passed away, because natural descendants originating from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still exist on the earth as Israel according to the flesh or natural/native seed.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree. However this generation has not passed away, because natural descendants originating from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still exist on the earth as Israel according to the flesh or natural/native seed.

Yes but Jesus did repeatedly refer to this generation in the context of talking about that generation of people that rejected him, in such a way as to imply that He was likening them to the final generation to have lived before the flood came upon the world.

 

[DavidPT]

What would the Greek word for "that generation" be?

What I have to wonder, since both of the following Greek words seem to basically mean the same thing, taute and houtos, which is translated as 'this' in 'this generation, why only in the OD did Jesus used the Greek word houtos, but every other place when He spoke of this generation, He used the Greek word taute?

For example.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this(taute) generation.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This(houtos) generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[DavidPT]

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


Wonder why Preterists disregard this verse? Are they going to argue that 'all' can't include anyone beyond the generation they were living in at the time?

 

[rwb]

"Shall see" in Mt 24:15 doesn't always mean physical sight. The Greek word εἴδω defined here as see may also mean be aware or understand. Consider the following:

Matthew 2:16 (KJV) Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Herod didn't literally see the wise men had mocked him, but he understood they had.

Matthew 4:16 (KJV) The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

At His coming Christ gave light where before there was only darkness. The people who understand don't see literally His light.

Many "shall see" (have understanding) abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. This is seen/understood to have happen not only in the Holy Temple still standing in Jerusalem, but also in the universal church. Both entities, once considered to be holy places of God became/become an abomination to God as they apostatize and turn away from Him. Then they cease to be considered the holy place of God.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks. Even so, this generation in Matthew 24 is the generation of saints who would go through the tribulation and great tribulation Jesus had just told them about, and from verse 9 of Matthew 24 the passage is joined together by the words "and"; "therefore"; "but"; "for" and "because".

It's the great tribulation of the saints that they would face in a day when they had become hated by all nations for His names' sake (verses 9; 21-22; 29-31). Jesus said that at that time (toteh) many will skandalizo (fall away) and will betray and hate one another, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many saints will grow cold.

The evidence for the last days mentioned in Hebrews 1:1-3 being a reference to the 40 years in-between the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in A.D 70 is good, but aside from the Lord's statement at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse regarding the Temple, only Luke 21:20-24 says anything about what would befall the Jews at Jerusalem.

.. and the Greek word naos is never used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil (and only used for the church and the temple in heaven) (whereas the word hieron is used in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the tearing of the veil). This shows clearly that the temple that the man of sin would seat himself up in is the church, and the same goes for the holy city and temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2.

.. and regardless of the evidence to the contrary, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is interpreted by Preterists and Partial Preterists as speaking about the temple in Jerusalem, and used as proof texts for what Preterism and Partial Preterism claims (no difference there between them and Dispensational Premillennialists, except for the timing of events),

So I err on the side of caution with regard to which generation is meant that Jesus said would experience the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-31, due to a lack of evidence that it's talking about the 1st century only, and no one else.

I said caution because Matthew 24 remains for me a passage that is extremely difficult to place in "time".

The text makes it clear, though.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:32-34

There’s no real way to read this any other way. The second person plurals indicates that He was intending for His audience to understand He was talking about them.

 

[parousia70]

There is no biblical record of the natural/native seed of Abraham after Christ. But we know Abraham's natural seed has not ended because Israel is still a native people on earth. The native seed of Abraham has not passed away!

Indeed it has not.
Thanks to two millennia of natural dispersion, the Abrahamic Genome is present in ALL of Humanity today.
It is found within every member of the human race.

ALL of us are that "Native people Israel on earth" that you speak of.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24 remains for me the most difficult passage to date. Because it could refer at one and the same time to two different periods thousands of years apart, but that cannot be proved.

If one just sticks to the context and realizes that Jesus was addressing the church, not unbelieving Jews, thus telling the church what should befall it while He is away, Matthew 24 is not that difficult after all.

 

[Hammster]

Can you prove through Scripture that there are no natural generations coming from "this" generation living then? If they exist, they too would belong to "this generation".

We have indications from scripture as to how long a generation is.


So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed.
— Numbers 32:13

Since He said this generation, it’s clear He was talking about that group.

 

[claninja]

Notice the generation (singular) of Christ coming from Abraham to Christ is one natural people according to flesh.

Not sure what your talking about here. The word that is singular in Matthew 1:1 is genesos. This is a different word than genea.

genesos is not used in Matthew 24:34. Genea is.

 

[rwb]

We have indications from scripture as to how long a generation is.


So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed.
— Numbers 32:13

Since He said this generation, it’s clear He was talking about that group.

The generation of Christ, according to Scripture is 14 generations from Abraham to Christ. Yet the Bible likens these 14 to the native/natural generation of Christ.