This generation

[claninja]

I hope Preterists will stop falsely claiming Eusebius as their own because he did not advocate their error. Quite the opposite. He was a classic Amil.

amils are partial preterist….

Eusebius held the same beliefs that many partial preterists do.

“He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; "For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword." We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled”

How does Eusebius use “genea” when discussing the destruction of the “that generation”?

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jewsand the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.”

 

[Timtofly]

If you feel you need to lie about what I’ve said, I’m not sure why I should respond.

The only time in Matthew 24 where "this generation" is mentioned is in conjunction with a parable. Most parables in Matthew deal with either the kingdom in heaven or a future kingdom on earth. If Jesus never used the word parable, it would instantly be that generation. But the word parable does not clearly indicate that generation, because you are basing the whole chapter on 70AD, when 70AD is not even mentioned once in that chapter. That would be what some claim, an interpretation based on a biased view, and not the content of the chapter itself.

The only reason why some hold to a future view is the word "parable". Yes many want to claim this is an order of events leading up to a Second Coming. Yes, Jesus said "you" would see it all. But not those of "that generation". Because the generation that "sees" is tied to the parable, and not necessarily the events themselves. Some of those in the parable would not even see all the events. Yet you can argue that the disciples will definitely see it all. Or you can argue that if it applies to you, you can experience it as well. You are also the reader. Every one who ever read Matthew is a "you". Some readers today were not even born in 1948. They are not even "that generation". They are still the "you" reader.

Grammatically, none of the disciples were the you in the parable, unless it was not a parable. You are choosing it was not a parable, but a mere statement that they saw all those things in the first century as just being a "long summer".

Since we seem to be basing this only on Matthew 24, because the words this generation is mentioned, I am not attempting to put words in your mouth, but only pointing out that those words are connected to a parable, and not the whole Olivet Discourse Grammatically. I would say the you after verse 14 is not even specific about those on the mountain that day, with the use of prepositional phrases. Someone even argued only Peter, James, and John heard those words. None of those three witnessed Jerusalem after a few years, nor any events in Jerusalem. James was martyred. Peter was in Babylon, and John on the isle of Patmos. So is the you even them, or the reader?

 

[Hammster]

The only time in Matthew 24 where "this generation" is mentioned is in conjunction with a parable. Most parables in Matthew deal with either the kingdom in heaven or a future kingdom on earth. If Jesus never used the word parable, it would instantly be that generation. But the word parable does not clearly indicate that generation, because you are basing the whole chapter on 70AD, when 70AD is not even mentioned once in that chapter. That would be what some claim, an interpretation based on a biased view, and not the content of the chapter itself.

The only reason why some hold to a future view is the word "parable". Yes many want to claim this is an order of events leading up to a Second Coming. Yes, Jesus said "you" would see it all. But not those of "that generation". Because the generation that "sees" is tied to the parable, and not necessarily the events themselves. Some of those in the parable would not even see all the events. Yet you can argue that the disciples will definitely see it all. Or you can argue that if it applies to you, you can experience it as well. You are also the reader. Every one who ever read Matthew is a "you". Some readers today were not even born in 1948. They are not even "that generation". They are still the "you" reader.

Grammatically, none of the disciples were the you in the parable, unless it was not a parable. You are choosing it was not a parable, but a mere statement that they saw all those things in the first century as just being a "long summer".

Since we seem to be basing this only on Matthew 24, because the words this generation is mentioned, I am not attempting to put words in your mouth, but only pointing out that those words are connected to a parable, and not the whole Olivet Discourse Grammatically. I would say the you after verse 14 is not even specific about those on the mountain that day, with the use of prepositional phrases. Someone even argued only Peter, James, and John heard those words. None of those three witnessed Jerusalem after a few years, nor any events in Jerusalem. James was martyred. Peter was in Babylon, and John on the isle of Patmos. So is the you even them, or the reader?

Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Don’t get caught up in chapter divisions. This starts before 24:1.

And again, PARable isn’t a story, though it can be. It’s a comPARison.

 

[Timtofly]

Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Don’t get caught up in chapter divisions. This starts before 24:1.

And again, PARable isn’t a story, though it can be. It’s a comPARison.

Jesus used parables to explain future events. You keep changing the point. The parable was about blooming and a full harvest. How can you compare that with the total destruction of the Temple?

I don't need chapter divisions to point out that those in the temple was the generation that may still be alive in 70AD. That is not the same as the parable generation.

Even in the same chapter Jesus gives several parables, and not all apply equally. You would not say that God judges the disciples on equal footing with the Pharisees. In fact the responsibility was being taken away from the Pharisees and being given to the disciples. Jesus pointed out that future event with a parable. Claiming that every time Jesus said this generation, out of context, without any qualifications, is pointless.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus used parables to explain future events. You keep changing the point. The parable was about blooming and a full harvest. How can you compare that with the total destruction of the Temple?

I don't need chapter divisions to point out that those in the temple was the generation that may still be alive in 70AD. That is not the same as the parable generation.

Even in the same chapter Jesus gives several parables, and not all apply equally. You would not say that God judges the disciples on equal footing with the Pharisees. In fact the responsibility was being taken away from the Pharisees and being given to the disciples. Jesus pointed out that future event with a parable. Claiming that every time Jesus said this generation, out of context, without any qualifications, is pointless.

The parable is about exactly what He said it was about. Why std you making about agricultural?

 

[Timtofly]

The parable is about exactly what He said it was about. Why std you making about agricultural?

The parable was about a fig tree, Israel. It was also about a harvest. It was not necessarily about summer. Summer just happens to be the time of harvest. This parable is seen in contrast to cursing Israel which Jesus did in the Temple in chapter 23. Although the event was also symbolized by Jesus cursing a fig tree out of season as well. A prophetic display done in a physical act.


Because the parable states:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (blooming), ye know that summer (time of harvest) is nigh:"

This parable is not about "telling the seasons". It is about a bloom and a harvest. It is really not even a sign. It is about an event, that one generation will experience, and further more all the other events as well.

How soon is summer, if you yourself, place 40 years between two events? One event being the OD the other being in 70AD.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, the kingdom is here now, and Christ is reigning. It started small (like a mustard seed) and will grow until it fills the earth (like the stone cut without hands).

I wouldn't even describe "the church" as a Kingdom. Notably every denomination has its own power hierarchy, and some, like Baptists can be largely independent each Pastor "ruling" his own flock.
Oh they all use the same book for the most part (though Catholic and Protestant bibles are different), and claim the same allegiance, but considering they interpret the book differently there's a lot less of a unified "kingdom".

 

[Hammster]

I wouldn't even describe "the church" as a Kingdom. Notably every denomination has its own power hierarchy, and some, like Baptists can be largely independent each Pastor "ruling" his own flock.
Oh they all use the same book for the most part (though Catholic and Protestant bibles are different), and claim the same allegiance, but considering they interpret the book differently there's a lot less of a unified "kingdom".

I use scripture. What we see can be deceiving.

 

[Hammster]

The parable was about a fig tree, Israel. It was also about a harvest. It was not necessarily about summer. Summer just happens to be the time of harvest. This parable is seen in contrast to cursing Israel which Jesus did in the Temple in chapter 23. Although the event was also symbolized by Jesus cursing a fig tree out of season as well. A prophetic display done in a physical act.


Because the parable states:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (blooming), ye know that summer (time of harvest) is nigh:"

This parable is not about "telling the seasons". It is about a bloom and a harvest. It is really not even a sign. It is about an event, that one generation will experience, and further more all the other events as well.

How soon is summer, if you yourself, place 40 years between two events? One event being the OD the other being in 70AD.

No harvest is mentioned. Do you want to try again?

 

[jgr]

I wouldn't even describe "the church" as a Kingdom. Notably every denomination has its own power hierarchy, and some, like Baptists can be largely independent each Pastor "ruling" his own flock.
Oh they all use the same book for the most part (though Catholic and Protestant bibles are different), and claim the same allegiance, but considering they interpret the book differently there's a lot less of a unified "kingdom".

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

If us is not the Church,
who is it?

 

[Jamdoc]

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

If us is not the Church,
who is it?

Believers but not "the Church" as an institution.
As of now, "the Kingdom" is not of this world.
But "the Church" is a worldly institution.
When Jesus returns, then we will understand the Kingdom.
another way I would put it.. we're citizens of a Kingdom, we have the passport... but we've never actually been there.

and considering your strong opinions on the Reformation, I think you'd agree that as a worldly institution "the Church" can get way off base and should not be seen as the Kingdom, because it is ruled by Christ in name, but in practice, by men. Because we've seen what Men can do when they rule "the Church"

 

[jgr]

Believers but not "the Church" as an institution.
As of now, "the Kingdom" is not of this world.
But "the Church" is a worldly institution.
When Jesus returns, then we will understand the Kingdom.
another way I would put it.. we're citizens of a Kingdom, we have the passport... but we've never actually been there.

and considering your strong opinions on the Reformation, I think you'd agree that as a worldly institution "the Church" can get way off base and should not be seen as the Kingdom, because it is ruled by Christ in name, but in practice, by men. Because we've seen what Men can do when they rule "the Church"

The true NT Church is not an "institution".

It is the collective body of believers in Christ around the world.

All of whom have been translated into His Kingdom.

So that when you speak of the true NT Church, you speak of the Kingdom of Christ.

And when you speak of the Kingdom of Christ, you speak of the true NT Church.

Bible 101.

 

[John Mullally]

If the worldwide Apocalyptic event described in Matthew 24:30 took place in the first century, archaeological evidence would be scattered throughout the world. We don't see that.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
​

The only rational explanation is that "this generation" was not talking about Jesus's contemporaries and therefore, Matthew 24:30 is yet future and the Matthew 24:34 generation has not passed away.

It’s not worldwide. I’m not sure why you keep saying that it is.

The phrase "All the tribes of the earth" implies worldwide.

No it doesn’t. It implies Israel.

Notice how the translations says "all the tribes of the earth" instead of "all the tribes of Israel". Saying "All the tribes of the earth" is equivalent to saying "Jews and Gentiles", "all the people groups of the earth" or "all men".

“Tribes” never describes people other than Israel. And actually, “earth” is a poor translation. It should be “land”.

The more you know.

Webster's Dictionary strongly disagrees with you on the definition of Tribes.

Don’t take my word for it. I may be wrong. Do your own word search for tribes in the NT. See if it’s ever used to describe the whole world, or whatever you think it’s describing.

Although Its less important how a word is used in the Bible then its definition in its original written language (Greek or Hebrew), I did my research as requested by my persistent challenger (Hammster) and found multiple NT verses listed below of "all tribes" indicating something world-wide. Matthew 24:30 must be a world-wide event. As a result, Matthew 24:30 did not happen at 70 AD because there is no written or other archeological evidence of the world-wide great glory Christ return event stated in Matthew 24:30. And therefore, Matthew 24:34 was not fulfilled at 70 AD. When Matthew 24:30 occurs it will not be done in a corner - it will be talked about more than the sum of the rest of human history.

Revelations 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”​

Revelations 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelations 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,​

 

[jgr]

but we've never actually been there.

I'm there.

Every child of God who believes Colossians 1:13 is there.

You're not?

 

[Jamdoc]

The true NT Church is not an "institution".

It is the collective body of believers in Christ around the world.

All of whom have been translated into His Kingdom.

So that when you speak of the true NT Church, you speak of the Kingdom of Christ.

And when you speak of the Kingdom of Christ, you speak of the true NT Church.

Bible 101.

and that makes it a collective of individuals, rather than a cohesive single operating state like a Nation or Kingdom.
That's why I say we have the passport, but we've never actually been there, not yet.

 

[eclipsenow]

That is simply not true. The problem is: Preterists fail to grasp that the old covenant ended, and the new covenant began, at the cross. If you fail to see this then you will be confused on this overall matter.

The last days came in with Christ. It was Christ’s earthly ministry that ushered in the last days, a period that will terminated in the glorious second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

Christ’s impeccable life, His vicarious death and glorious resurrection perfectly fulfilled the demands of this notable prophecy. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Peter clearly tells us that Joel 2 refers to Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21. Moreover, Acts 2 also reveals that the last days began with the move of the Holy Spirit in the early church. Peter says, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

I John 2:18 says, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

I love these verses - but as the husband of a graphic designer - please - not red! Also, use the NIV, it's just better. But I love your points. I might use the same ones but indented and in NIV. Cheers!

 

[Jamdoc]

I love these verses - but as the husband of a graphic designer - please - not red! Also, use the NIV, it's just better. But I love your points. I might use the same ones but indented and in NIV. Cheers!

"NIV, it's just better."

I won't go long into it.. but..

Proverbs 6, NIV

6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander, no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest.

KJV

6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

Now.. kinda wrong regarding not having a ruler, because ant-queens are a thing.. but.. it is interesting to note, that worker ants are all female.. and they wouldn't be able to know that through observation, as worker ants do not lay eggs to show that they are female. So we can really only attribute Inspiration to that use of correct gender.

and yes, in the hebrew interlinear, they use the correct pronouns as well, it is gendered, it is female ants in the hebrew, and in the KJV, but not the NIV, the worker ants became gender non-binary.

 

[jgr]

and that makes it a collective of individuals, rather than a cohesive single operating state like a Nation or Kingdom.
That's why I say we have the passport, but we've never actually been there, not yet.

1 Peter 2:9 declares that the Church is a holy nation.

Don't include me, or any child of God who believes Colossians 1:13, in "we've".

 

[Jamdoc]

1 Peter 2:9 declares that the Church is a holy nation.

Don't include me, or any child of God who believes Colossians 1:13, in "we've".

oh boy.. "kingdom now" theology..

well, reality is, the church is more like the state of Israel during the time of the Judges.

24 And the children of Israel departed thence at that time, every man to his tribe and to his family, and they went out from thence every man to his inheritance.
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Yes, we have the bible, but ultimately, who's making decisions for what you do day to day?
You.
because who can say they're perfectly in the will of God at every moment?
So like Israel during the time of Judges.. oh they had the laws of Moses
and God was their King in spirit...
but when it came to every day actions? They just did what was right in their own eyes.

Similarly the Church, believers do what's right in their own eyes, even if they try to guide what they do according to biblical principle.
When the Kingdom comes? That won't be the case. Otherwise, sin would be possible again.

You can have an assembly, but, is your denomination right and everyone else's wrong? Who gave you the authority to make that claim?
So each denomination does what is right in their own eyes as well.

only when Jesus comes will we fully know the Kingdom.

 

[jgr]

oh boy.. "kingdom now" theology..

well, reality is, the church is more like the state of Israel during the time of the Judges.



Yes, we have the bible, but ultimately, who's making decisions for what you do day to day?
You.
because who can say they're perfectly in the will of God at every moment?
So like Israel during the time of Judges.. oh they had the laws of Moses
and God was their King in spirit...
but when it came to every day actions? They just did what was right in their own eyes.

Similarly the Church, believers do what's right in their own eyes, even if they try to guide what they do according to biblical principle.
When the Kingdom comes? That won't be the case. Otherwise, sin would be possible again.

You can have an assembly, but, is your denomination right and everyone else's wrong? Who gave you the authority to make that claim?
So each denomination does what is right in their own eyes as well.

only when Jesus comes will we fully know the Kingdom.

If your church is more like the state of Israel,
maybe you should change churches.

If your decision making is substandard,
maybe you should improve it.

If you're doing what is right in your own eyes only,
maybe you should correct it.

Romans 12
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If you're not in the Holy Nation of 1 Peter 2:9,
where are you?

If you're not in the Kingdom of Colossians 1:13,
what are you in?