This generation

[Zao is life]

We're discussing the meaning of the expression "this generation" in the Gospel of Matthew.

If Matthew was consistent in his usage and application of the meaning of that expression, (and he was, confirmed by Bro. Strong, which you seem to have overlooked), then Matthew is the authoritative interpreter of Matthew.

Mark didn't write Matthew.
Luke didn't write Matthew.
Matthew alone wrote Matthew.

You seem to be off on multiple irrelevant tangents.

haha thanks for pointing out how far yourself and others have strayed from the strict limits of the OP in this thread. I'll refrain from copying you The Olivet Discourse appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke, which is why @3 Resurrections is quoting parts not found in Matthew in the very next post here. But I'll remain within the limits

 

[3 Resurrections]

Disconnecting the events to say that some were fulfilled in AD70 and the second coming comes 2000 years after the "signs" that were intended to precede it is unbiblical, and frankly makes no sense.

Again, it's presented with the illustration of delivering a baby. You don't go through the hard labor at the beginning of the pregnancy, settle down, and then the baby pops out months later suddenly without any contractions and pain.
The contractions and pain intensify until the baby is delivered.

This is a very good line of argument. Once labor starts, the birth of a child is not far behind. There was NO gap of 2,000 years and still counting from the "labor pains" of persecution of Christ's disciples until His return. That is why Christ forewarned His disciples in Matthew 10:17-23 when He first commissioned them to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." He told them that the result of their labors would only lead them to...

"...Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils" (trials before the Sanhedrin - which is no longer in existence), "and they will scourge you in their synagogues;" (not likely today or in the future either).
"And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (the indwelling Spirit after Christ's ascension).

"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." (Zealotry being one of the main causes of inter-family hostilities and civil warfare in those first-century days, as well as Jewish opposition to the gospel of Christ).

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (a bodily resurrection for those disciples of Christ who remained faithful unto death under their first-century persecutions).

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Christ's second coming before the disciples had personally finished evangelistic coverage of their own cities of Israel).

Sounds like "labor pains" for the disciples in that first century, culminating in the imminent "birth" of something strategic in those days at Christ's coming.

 

[Hammster]

It is to the apostles and EVERY GENERATION AFTER THEM UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.
BECAUSE JESUS DID NOT KNOW WHEN EXACTLY IT WOULD HAPPEN.

If that’s the case, you should be able to show it from the text. I’ve shown you repeatedly from the text why it’s to that generation. All you’ve countered with is that it’s for every generation, but you haven’t shown it from the text.

 

[Hammster]

The Darkening of the Sun and Moon are always associated with the Day of the Lord, that's Old Testament prophecy and repeated in New Testament prophecy showing that it is still an awaited day in the Apostle's Time. The last book, Revelation, contains it as well.
Jesus most definitely spoke about the Day of the Lord.

again, either you're burying your head in the sand to not see what's plainly visible and understood to cling to preterism, allegorizing things to meaninglessness, or basically flaming and goading.

The OT prophecy always had to do with the rulers losing their headship. It’s decreation language. So in this case, it’s the rulers of Israel losing their place of leadership with the destruction of the temple and the siege on Jerusalem.

 

[Hammster]

and sin and death still exist
proving you utterly, astoundingly
EMBARASSINGLY wrong.

You’ll have to show where in the text that sin and death cease.

 

[Hammster]

In the below statement Jesus defines what generation means.

Matthew 11

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

This is Jesus revealing He is not of 'this' generation.
Everyone there would be familiar with the term ' born of woman ' as meaning descendants of Adam and Eve.

We all know what generation means. What’s in focus is “this generation”.

 

[Hammster]

How about tortured through medical experiments
how about starved and worked to death
and the Romans didn't kill 6 million of them.

and you're assuming that the poison gas is what killed them when in those gas chambers.
It wasn't. The dosage they used was not high enough to poison everyone in the hundreds to thousands they packed in like sardines.
Rather, a few died from poison, and the weight of their collapsing bodies bore down on everyone next to them, and the end result was crushing deaths and suffocating.

which is ultimately, not unlike what actually causes death in crucifixion. It's not blood loss from the wounds. It's the act of gravity pulling on the body crushing the lungs in that suspended state, slowly asphyxiating you because it becomes harder and harder to breathe.

Don’t forget this


Moreover, there shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again.
— Exodus 11:6

God actually said that.

 

[Hammster]

Not the writings. Only the words they remembered Jesus saying. Even the writings of each Gospel is slightly different, and may not even be the exact words. You seem to be imposing modern methods. We do not even know the precise date of the written form, and it was not prior to 70AD. Of course there is a minority view, just as with Revelation. That generation that heard, was not the same generation that would later read Matthew. The book of Matthew was not published as a hand book handed out at the Cross. The Gospels were written years after the Cross, and were not even written nor explained in such a way that they were written merely for a 70AD date of fulfillment.

I’m dealing with someone who is going to question the canon.

 

[Hammster]

So by that logic even if Jesus is speaking to them about a future generation and says this generation because it's the same future generation He is speaking to them about, it's the generation of the people He's speaking to.

He could have said “that generation”. He didn’t.

 

[JosephZ]

It was to those alive at the time. I agree.
But is there a reason to think He didn't also mean all descendants of Adam and Eve?

I believe Matthew 24 is talking about the generation of those living at the time because Matthew is consistent with the way that he uses the term generation throughout his Gospel.

Strong's Concordance

genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Definition: race, family, generation
Usage: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).

 

[Eloy Craft]

We all know what generation means. What’s in focus is “this generation”.

I'm not so sure. Are all people alive at any certain time described as a generation? If referencing those alive at any certain time they consist of several generations. Otherwise it refers to a common generator.

 

[JulieB67]

I don’t see “day of the Lord” in there. So I don’t think it’s me who is changing the words.

The entire book is about the end of this present age and the return of Christ which brings the day of the Lord.

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the age that we are presently in as well as the disciples and that's the age they are talking about. This current one. We look forward to the new heavens and earth in the future.

Are you honestly going to say these verses are about the destruction of 70AD and not about the Second Advent?

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Clearly directed towards Christians and not unbelieving Jews.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Unbelieving Jews are not watchmen for Christ.

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Again, this is directed towards Christians and since the disciples have been dead for over 2000 years, these verses are directed towards the generation that will see "all" these things come to pass. That's why we are told to watch. And that's why every generation is told to watch. And 2000 years is nothing to our Father.

Matthew 24:46 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

This is about rewards upon Christ's return. Not destruction in 70AD. It's about the Christian on watch being rewarded. We know what happens to the wicked.

Matthew 24:47 "Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Again, rewards. Not destruction.

Matthew 24:48 "But and if that if that evil servant shall say in his heart, "My Lord delayeth his coming";

"Oh no, it's been 2000 years, where is he?"

II Peter 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

II Peter 3:4 "And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? for since the father fell asleep, all thing continue as they were from the beginning of the creation......"

II Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


Matthew 24:49 "And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;"

Matthew 24:50 "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,"


Matthew 24:51 "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

But when it’s this generation, it always means the generation which is being spoken to.

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

One of the key words is "when" when ye shall see "all" these things come to pass That's the generation that will not pass. Whoever is still standing are told to lift their heads because their redemption is near. That happens at the return of Christ. It did not happen at 70 AD.

If you don't believe so, can you at least break down the verses I posted from Matthew and explain how they're not about the Second Advent and are instead about the destruction in 70AD? I've broke them down how I see them. I'm really curious how you see these verses.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not so sure. Are all people alive at any certain time described as a generation? If referencing those alive at any certain time they consist of several generations. Otherwise it refers to a common generator.

You could just look back at the OP and see how “this generation” is used in the gospels.

 

[Hammster]

One of the key words is "when" when ye shall see "all" these things come to pass That's the generation that will not pass. Whoever is still standing are told to lift their heads because their redemption is near. That happens at the return of Christ. It did not happen at 70 AD.

The key words are “you” (second person plural) and “this generation”. The generation that was there saw all of those things.

 

[John Mullally]

Because Matthew wrote Matthew 24, and is consistent throughout his gospel in his usage of "this generation", and is the best interpreter of himself.

Do you not know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not interpreting themselves, but quoting Jesus. No one reads Matthew to see how he interprets himself.

 

[JulieB67]

The key words are “you” (second person plural) and “this generation”. The generation that was there saw all of those thing

The generation there did not see the verses I just posted from Matthew, are you not going to break down those verses? Or do those verses mean nothing to you?

We have to read an entire chapter so we don't lose context of what's being discussed. You can't just focus on a verse or two. Again, the disciples did not see the verses I posted. If so, break those down.

 

[Hammster]

The generation there did not see the verses I just posted from Matthew, are you not going to break down those verses? Or do those verses mean nothing to you?

We have to read an entire chapter so we don't lose context of what's being discussed. You can't just focus on a verse or two. Again, the disciples did not see the verses I posted. If so, break those down.

That generation saw all that Jesus said they would see. He said it in Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34. He wasn’t ambiguous.

 

[Zao is life]

He could have said “that generation”. He didn’t.

That's just semantics, and I think you know it. The destruction of the temple was a very big thing and though none of us lived in the 1st century, we are all 100% sure about it because it's part of both Jewish and Roman history and written all over the history books.

The return of Christ in 70 A.D would be even a much much much bigger thing and yet we are arguing today about whether or not Christ returned in 70 A.D, which is already proof that it has not yet happened. The apostle Peter was prophesying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote about the new heavens and new earth which we look forward to "in which righteousness dwells". I think God would have made it abundantly clear that both righteousness and wickedness would dwell in the new heavens and new earth following the return of Christ.

We know that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple occurred in 70 A.D, but you guys are all trying to convince everyone that something infinitely bigger occurred at the same time, and yet in this "new heavens and earth" we are all living in hardly anyone believes you because it's simply not recorded.

Mmmm.

 

[parousia70]

That's just semantics, and I think you know it. The destruction of the temple was a very big thing and though none of us lived in the 1st century, we are all 100% sure about it because it's part of both Jewish and Roman history and written all over the history books.

The return of Christ in 70 A.D would be even a much much much bigger thing and yet we are arguing today about whether or not Christ returned in 70 A.D, which is already proof that it has not yet happened. The apostle Peter was prophesying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote about the new heavens and new earth which we look forward to "in which righteousness dwells". I think God would have made it abundantly clear that both righteousness and wickedness would dwell in the new heavens and new earth following the return of Christ.

We know that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple occurred in 70 A.D, but you guys are all trying to convince everyone that something infinitely bigger occurred at the same time, and yet in this "new heavens and earth" we are all living in hardly anyone believes you because it's simply not recorded.

Mmmm.

The Battlefield Victory of David Over Saul was a very big thing, an incredibly significant event in Israel's timeline, and though none of us lived in 1000 BC, we are all 100% sure it happened.

AFTER David's Battlefield Defeat of Saul, David describes the Battle as having been FULFILLED thusly:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8 “Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?
According to David, God personally came down to earth from Heaven and was actually Optically Seen Running about the Clouds, Flying around on a Cherub, Shouting and Shooting arrows and lighting fires from His brightness and nostril breath, Bowing all the heavens, drying up the seas, laying the entire earth bare to it's foundations.

We know that Saul's Kingdom came to and end at David's hands in 1010 BC, but in 2 Samuel 22, David is trying to convince everyone that something infinitely bigger occurred at the same time.

Perhaps David was mistaken about the events he just witnessed?
Or worse yet, he was outright Lying about it?

Please exegete this passage for us.
Literal?
Figurative?

Mmmmmm...

 

[Eloy Craft]

You could just look back at the OP and see how “this generation” is used in the gospels.

Jesus is referring to all those born of woman when referring to this generation. That meaning is used to address those He is teaching and includes any one who lived past or future.
The examples given in the OP bears that out.