This generation

[John Mullally]

On the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared;
"I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals;
for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities"
Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, 6:5:3.

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour."
Tacitus, The Histories, 5:13

“A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded."
Pseudo-Hegesippus, 44

Thank you. I learned something. Its not quite as odd as Matthew 27:52.

However, what you are describing sounds more like angel activity that God allowed many to see (refer to 2 Kings 6:17). My understanding is that Jesus returns in His glory once per Acts 1:11. Matthew 25 and portions of Revelations expand on Matthew 24:30.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, “‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’ . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-34, 46 (NASB)​

 

[jgr]

I never doubted that most of "all these things" took place in the first century. Matthew 24:34 indicates that there will be a generation where "all these things" take place.

Since you mentioned it, how is the fulfillment of Matt 24:30 in the first century explicable?

I will again reference Bro. Woodrow's incisive exegesis.

 

[trophy33]

What you are describing sounds more like angel activity that God allowed many to see (refer to 2 Kings 6:17). Jesus returns in His glory once - Matthew 25 expands on that.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, “‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’ . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-34, 46 (NASB)​

Its hard to say if the throne, gathering of the nations and their separation is meant to be physical... its difficult to imagine it.

 

[John Mullally]

I will again reference Bro. Woodrow's incisive exegesis.

Per your link, Bro. Woodrow agrees with me in that he associates Matthew 24:30 with the second coming. If that is true, the Matthew 24:34 generation must be our time or a later generation.

Taking all of these things into consideration, we favor the interpretation which applies Matthew 24:30, 31 (and the parallel accounts) to the Second Coming of Christ when he will come with the clouds, in power and great glory; when men shall see him and mourn; when he shall send out angels with the sound of the trumpet to gather together believers to meet the Lord.​

 

[John Mullally]

Its hard to say if the throne, gathering of the nations and their separation is meant to be physical... its difficult to imagine it.

I imagine when we get there it will be more real than what we experience now. And I imagine at that time even the redeemed will beat themselves for not taking the scriptures more literally.

 

[trophy33]

And I imagine at that time even the redeemed will beat themselves for not taking the scriptures more literally.

Or less literally...

I think of how Jews did not recognize Jesus as Christ just because they were expecting more
literal fulfillment of prophecies.

They expected worse, but literal fulfillment and rejected better, spiritual fulfillment.

 

[John Mullally]

Or less literally...

I think of how Jews did not recognize Jesus as Christ just because they were expecting more
literal fulfillment of prophecies.

They expected worse, but literal fulfillment and rejected better, spiritual fulfillment.

The fact that the Jewish leaders missed Jesus, gives me pause on the how of Jesus return (i.e. order of Eschatological events), not the what (i.e. He is returning and rewarding the faithful).

 

[Jamdoc]

Or less literally...

I think of how Jews did not recognize Jesus as Christ just because they were expecting more
literal fulfillment of prophecies.

They expected worse, but literal fulfillment and rejected better, spiritual fulfillment.

a lot of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled quite literally.
rode into Jerusalem on a donkey
betrayed by one of his own for thirty pieces of silver which were thrown to the potter
pierced without bones being broken
raiment parted and cast for lots
born in Bethlehem by a virgin yet called out of Egypt and a Nazarene, which those 3 prophecies would seemingly have been impossible to coincide literally. Yet they all happened literally.

The thing the Pharisees most missed, is the fact that there would be 2 comings and that Messiah would suffer and die.

 

[John Mullally]

This is a weak response. You think you can just tell me I misinterpreted the Olivet Discourse and that makes it so? Think again.

Lookup the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Matt5]

What do these all have in common? They are all taking about the generation that Jesus is speaking. However, there are eschatological views that expect us to ignore this language in Matthew 24.


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Ideas and words must be added or read into this to make it fit a particular view. However, taken at face value, like the other instances, simply means that the generation that Jesus was speaking to were those in view, not some eisegesical generation in the future.

So you're getting us on consistency. And the Bible interprets itself, so just let it.

Why doesn't the Bible just give us Jesus' date of return? That would be consistent and interpret itself.

The Bible seems to be moving in the opposite direction. It plays games with us. It uses misdirection. It seems to hide understanding.

Thanks to you, in an age of nuclear warfare where a billion+ people could be wiped out in a day, we are now left hanging with little guidance. Of course, you did get some help from the mostly useless interpretations from the prophecy as future students.

 

[Hammster]

Pax Romana was a RELATIVE peace. There were wars taking place during it, just like the post WW2 era "Pax Americana" still had/has armed conflicts, it is a RELATIVE peace compared to the 2 world wars which preceded it.

Point is.. even during the Jewish revolts, it was considered a relatively peaceful time in the Roman Empire, only a relatively localized regional revolt... and certainly no return of Christ which will undo the entire world power structure.

and Jesus did connect the signs He laid out with His return, and no it was not talking about His ascension, because that had happened decades prior to AD70.
Stephen already said He saw Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father in Acts before He was martyred.

This did not happen in AD 70


and note the they. The subject is, the tribes of the Earth. This is not some spiritual coming on the clouds that could not be seen. This is a highly visible and dramatic (sun and moon darkened, meteor shower, cosmic disturbances, the rapture) event that everyone on Earth sees, including the unbelievers, who mourn because they know they were wrong, likely, because they'd just been persecuting Christians right up until this time.

That didn't happen in AD70, and in the "this generation shall not pass" statement Jesus makes, it is until ALL these things be fulfilled. Not everything except the whole second coming part.

Not to mention, the signs of His coming would be worthless as signs.. if they happened 2000 years prior to His coming.

AD70 foreshadowed, it was the opening act, but it was not the headliner.

The audience that Christ was speaking to was well-versed in the OT, unlike most Christians today. So when Jesus quoted scripture, they knew it. When He made reference to things in the OT, they knew it. So they were familiar with terms like “coming on clouds”, “sun, moon, and stars” etc. They understood that it wasn’t a physical coming on the clouds. They understood that sun, moon, and stars language meant that the power structure in Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. They also knew that it would affect Israel because Jesus said tribes of the earth, and not every single person. Since the tribes cannot be identified, it had to be first century. He was warning the believers so they would know to flee Jerusalem. Which they did. If this was a cataclysmic, world-wide event, fleeing to the hills of Judea certainly would not help. And if the rapture is true, certainly not necessary.

So Jesus was correct when He said “this generation”. It wasn’t cryptic. There’s no way they would have thought He was referring to something thousands of years in the future.

 

[Hammster]

If the worldwide Apocalyptic event described in Matthew 24:30 took place in the first century, archaeological evidence would be scattered throughout the world. We don't see that.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
​

The only rational explanation is that "this generation" was not talking about Jesus's contemporaries and therefore, Matthew 24:30 is yet future and the Matthew 24:34 generation has not passed away.

It’s not worldwide. I’m not sure why you keep saying that it is.

 

[Hammster]

So you're getting us on consistency. And the Bible interprets itself, so just let it.

Why doesn't the Bible just give us Jesus' date of return? That would be consistent and interpret itself.

The Bible seems to be moving in the opposite direction. It plays games with us. It uses misdirection. It seems to hide understanding.

Thanks to you, in an age of nuclear warfare where a billion+ people could be wiped out in a day, we are now left hanging with little guidance. Of course, you did get some help from the mostly useless interpretations from the prophecy as future students.

Little guidance? Hardly.


And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

And pretty much all of the epistles.

 

[Jamdoc]

and here's the thing with not expecting literal physical fulfillment, one of the most important aspects of the entire redemptive story: the redemption of our bodies.
The theological implications of NOT having a physical resurrection are staggering.
#1. God created us body first, THEN spirit.
Genesis 2

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So to God, it is important that we have a body, being a disincorporated spirit is an unnatural state of being for us and is not God's intent for us. His intent for us is to be corporeal beings that bear His image and are His imagebearers on the Earth, to have dominion over it, basically the closest thing most created beings will know to their creator... is His imagebearers.
Genesis 1

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

We cannot be His imagebearers on the Earth, fulfilling the purpose He made us for, if we are not on the Earth, and not corporeal.

#2. If we just go to an eternal spiritual plane or whatever, then it signals that Satan has won dominion of the Earth and "beaten" God, that God has given up on His creation. No, Jesus winning souls while letting the entire physical creation go to Hell is not a win. God MUST take back what He created, in the way He meant it to be, and Jesus INCARNATING IN OUR FLESH is the key to all of it. The physical resurrection is key to all of it, for both Jesus, and for us. Because it reclaims this world from Satan, and establishes the everlasting Dominion that God intended man to have, with Christ as our federal head.

#3. Jesus was physically resurrected, and is our example, both in the way that He lived, but also foreshadowing our own resurrection. Earlier I quoted Philippians 3:21 and 1 John 3:2. We are to be like Jesus in that way too, that we will physically resurrect. If only Jesus physically resurrects and we just stay as spirits in some spirit realm heaven forever, we're not becoming the likeness of Christ.

#4. It means this world is just purely pointless, especially if Jesus already did return, at that point you just get saved and then wait to die, because there's nothing to look forward to until dying. For a futurist, we look forward to the 2nd coming of Christ, even though every generation has hoped for it since the first century AD, we continue to pray for it with that call, Maranatha Lord Jesus, it points forward to that blessed hope. If the preterists are right? There is no blessed hope, just dying and escaping, a very Platonic/Greek/Gnostic worldview.

#5. If that is true, it aligns with the Platonic view of the world that says material creation is evil/spirit is good, that this physical world that God created is inherently evil and must be escaped from via death. This does not align with the Biblical view, which is that what God made was VERY GOOD, it has been cursed by sin, but God has promised to restore it.

So to boil it down, no physical resurrection is a gnostic view in origin, and essentially says what God created is inherently evil, that God gives up on His plans and creation, Satan wins the Earth, and we have no hope except dying.

 

[Hammster]

and here's the thing with not expecting literal physical fulfillment, one of the most important aspects of the entire redemptive story: the redemption of our bodies.
The theological implications of NOT having a physical resurrection are staggering.
#1. God created us body first, THEN spirit.
Genesis 2

So to God, it is important that we have a body, being a disincorporated spirit is an unnatural state of being for us and is not God's intent for us. His intent for us is to be corporeal beings that bear His image and are His imagebearers on the Earth, to have dominion over it, basically the closest thing most created beings will know to their creator... is His imagebearers.
Genesis 1

We cannot be His imagebearers on the Earth, fulfilling the purpose He made us for, if we are not on the Earth, and not corporeal.

#2. If we just go to an eternal spiritual plane or whatever, then it signals that Satan has won dominion of the Earth and "beaten" God, that God has given up on His creation. No, Jesus winning souls while letting the entire physical creation go to Hell is not a win. God MUST take back what He created, in the way He meant it to be, and Jesus INCARNATING IN OUR FLESH is the key to all of it. The physical resurrection is key to all of it, for both Jesus, and for us. Because it reclaims this world from Satan, and establishes the everlasting Dominion that God intended man to have, with Christ as our federal head.

#3. Jesus was physically resurrected, and is our example, both in the way that He lived, but also foreshadowing our own resurrection. Earlier I quoted Philippians 3:21 and 1 John 3:2. We are to be like Jesus in that way too, that we will physically resurrect. If only Jesus physically resurrects and we just stay as spirits in some spirit realm heaven forever, we're not becoming the likeness of Christ.

#4. It means this world is just purely pointless, especially if Jesus already did return, at that point you just get saved and then wait to die, because there's nothing to look forward to until dying. For a futurist, we look forward to the 2nd coming of Christ, even though every generation has hoped for it since the first century AD, we continue to pray for it with that call, Maranatha Lord Jesus, it points forward to that blessed hope. If the preterists are right? There is no blessed hope, just dying and escaping, a very Platonic/Greek/Gnostic worldview.

#5. If that is true, it aligns with the Platonic view of the world that says material creation is evil/spirit is good, that this physical world that God created is inherently evil and must be escaped from via death. This does not align with the Biblical view, which is that what God made was VERY GOOD, it has been cursed by sin, but God has promised to restore it.

So to boil it down, no physical resurrection is a gnostic view in origin, and essentially says what God created is inherently evil, that God gives up on His plans and creation, Satan wins the Earth, and we have no hope except dying.

I think you must have posted this in the wrong thread.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think you must have posted this in the wrong thread.

Nope, I forgot to quote them but I am referring back to a few full preterists who continue to post in this thread and insist that Jesus returned in AD70 and it's just "spiritual"

To be honest, I believe you once came into a Futurist only thread I had begun to explain how Jesus DID return in AD70 "just not in the way you expected" which has kind of put you on the "full preterist" list as well.

 

[Hammster]

Nope, I forgot to quote them but I am referring back to a few full preterists who continue to post in this thread and insist that Jesus returned in AD70 and it's just "spiritual"

To be honest, I believe you once came into a Futurist only thread I had begun to explain how Jesus DID return in AD70 "just not in the way you expected" which has kind of put you on the "full preterist" list as well.

I’m not a full preterist. I don’t believe that Jesus physically returned in 70 AD because the OD doesn’t describe a physical return.

 

[Jamdoc]

I’m not a full preterist. I don’t believe that Jesus physically returned in 70 AD because the OD doesn’t describe a physical return.

It describes coming down from heaven in a way visible to all the tribes of the Earth to mourn, and the angels sent with the sound of a trumpet to gather the elect (the rapture).

It also Parallels Revelation 6 in a way that is not coincidental.
Same events in the same order.

 

[Hammster]

It describes coming down from heaven in a way visible to all the tribes of the Earth to mourn, and the angels sent with the sound of a trumpet to gather the elect (the rapture).

It also Parallels Revelation 6 in a way that is not coincidental.
Same events in the same order.

I know what it says. I don’t disagree with what’s said. I disagree with your understanding since the original audience wouldn’t understand it that way.

 

[Hammster]

For all:

imagine that you do not have an eschatological view, and you have read through Matthew, and you get to chapter 24. Is there anything grammatically that would lead you to believe that “this generation” means anything other than the generation He’s speaking to?