This generation

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus didn't know at the time He spoke those words. But He DID know the time of His return after His ascension. How do we know this? Because Jesus told John in Revelation 1:1 that God had given Him that information to pass on to John, who would himself then pass on that information to the believers.

Why are you making things up? Nowhere, including the book of Revelation, does it say that Jesus knew the time of His return after His ascension.

When we read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, the believers were well aware of the time and the season - and the day of the Lord's coming - of which they were not ignorant at that point. It was just as Daniel 12:10 once said about those times approaching the shattering of Daniel's people and the resurrection at that time. "None of the wicked shall understand, but the righteous shall understand."

No, Paul said he didn't need to write to them about the times and seasons because they would have known that Jesus said no one knew the day or hour and it was never the goal to tell them when Christ's return would occur. Why would Paul say His coming was like a thief in the night if the time was known? That makes no sense. No one knew when He would come, but Paul, like Jesus, told believers to be spiritually ready for it whenever He did come.

The time was never going to be known beforehand or else Jesus wouldn't have said this:

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The emphasis Jesus had was on being ready for Him to come, not knowing when He would come. Paul was no different. And Jesus made it very clear in verse 44 above that no one would know when He was coming right up until He actually comes.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Heaven and earth have not passed away. I’m not sure why you think they should.

No, I'm not saying they should be, but you should believe that if you think this generation already passed away. I already explained why.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Do you think verses 35 and 36 have no relation to verse 34? I do. I believe He was implying that heaven and earth would pass away when this generation passed away and He was saying that no one knew the day and hour that would happen.

Jesus didn’t know the day and hour. He didn’t say any more than that. He did, however, say that those things would take place within that generation. The angels (messengers) are currently spreading the gospel, which is necessary to collect the elect.

So, is that generation still going on today in your view then since that is still going on today? Isn't it your view that "this generation" ended in 70 AD?

Also, how are they gathering the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" if it's talking about the spread of the gospel?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I don't know why a verse like this wouldn't remind someone of this which also talks about Jesus coming and the elect being gathered from heaven and earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you think the above passage is already fulfilled?

 

[Hammster]

This post baffles me to no end. You're trying to claim that there's no scripture where tribes ever refers to a people other than Israel and then you proceeded to post a verse where the word is clearly not used in reference to Israel but rather to all people groups. You answered your own challenge without even realizing it.

Not at all. Read the verse more closely.

 

[Hammster]

No, it is not. Your doctrinal bias is really shining through here. The context of all those verses is in relation to all people groups/nations/tribes, etc. in the world, not just Israel. That's obvious to anyone who is unbiased.

I’m not saying that it’s not. But if tribes described everyone, you wouldn’t need the other descriptors.

 

[Hammster]

No, I'm not saying they should be, but you should believe that if you think this generation already passed away. I already explained why.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Do you think verses 35 and 36 have no relation to verse 34? I do. I believe He was implying that heaven and earth would pass away when this generation passed away and He was saying that no one knew the day and hour that would happen.

He said that heaven and earth would pass away before His words passed away. He didn’t say that heaven and earth would pass away before this generation.

So, is that generation still going on today in your view then since that is still going on today?

no.

Isn't it your view that "this generation" ended in 70 AD?

yes.

Also, how are they gathering the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" if it's talking about the spread of the gospel?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You might want to refresh yourself with Romans 10.


How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
— Romans 10:14-15

I don't know why a verse like this wouldn't remind someone of this which also talks about Jesus coming and the elect being gathered from heaven and earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you think the above passage is already fulfilled?

No.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why are you making things up? Nowhere, including the book of Revelation, does it say that Jesus knew the time of His return after His ascension.

This is not my fabrication. The theme of the book of Revelation concludes with Christ's return. "Behold, I am coming quickly". All the events leading up to that imminent bodily return was what Jesus was revealing to John, and the believers that John was writing to. Besides, Christ had already reminded the Jewish believers to read their Daniel scriptures concerning His return, and Daniel had given them a very precise 1,335th day in which to expect a bodily resurrection, with two very notable events preceding the resurrection on that 1,335th day.

Why would Paul say His coming was like a thief in the night if the time was known?

Because Christ's imminent return would be like a thief for the wicked, who Daniel said would "NOT understand" the timing of those events. The righteous were "NOT in ignorance, that this day should overtake them as a thief". The righteous would have understood and been prepared, as Daniel also said in Daniel 12:10.

The "unknown" feature of the "day and hour" of Christ's return was based on when the return of the new moon occurred in the sky - the "Sign of the Son of Man in heaven" (Matthew 24:30). This unknown time for the appearance of the "new moon" was the factor that determined the scheduling of Passover and consequently the Pentecost day feast, exactly 50 days later. That AD 70 Pentecost day was the 1,335th day for a resurrection event which Daniel 12:12-13 had foretold. The ending 1,335th day came after a season when the daily sacrifice for the Roman empire and the emperor had been taken away, and the day when the armies of Cestius Gallus had first surrounded Jerusalem against the Zealot armies in AD 66. Then 1,290 days later, (the number Daniel predicted), Roman armies again arrived at Jerusalem to trap the Passover attendees within the city under a siege. Then 45 days into the siege after that, Pentecost day in AD 70 arrived, with Christ's return and a resurrection taking place on that day - at evening between day and night, as Zechariah 14:7 had foretold.

 

[DavidPT]

Except that you don’t believe Him when He said that those things would take place in that generation.

Except you have it wrong. It's not Jesus I don't believe, in regards to this generation, it is your interpretation of that that I don't believe. And I have already laid out numerous reasons why Jesus couldn't have meant that current generation that they were living in at the time, yet it could still involve that generation in some sense even if this is still future, since Jesus could have meant a certain type of ppl, unbelievers in this case. This generation could possibly have multiple meanings rather than just one. But it is not meant to be taken to mean 40 years or so later, that those alive at the time, would see the fulfillment of everything that must be fulfilled before that generation passes away.

It then could be a question of, which generation was Jesus meaning since not everyone were from the same generation? Was He meaning the older among them, which might include some who were in the last 5 or 10 years of their life, thus He lied to these because that generation passed away way before 70 AD? Yet, Jesus said this generation shall not pass away, until. Which generation if not everyone were among the same generation? For example, my grandmother was born in 1905. She died quite some time ago. Actually, everyone from that same generation, those who were born in 1905, that generation has already passed away, literally, unless you know of anyone over 115 years old..

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yet, Jesus said this generation shall not pass away, until. Which generation if not everyone were among the same generation?

It's the generation out of whom Jesus had cast out devils during its "first state", and ending with its "last state". Both adults and young children, such as Mary Magdalene, and the young boy and the Canaanite woman's daughter out of whom Christ cast out unclean spirits.

It's the generation which was directly given the "sign of the prophet Jonah" to see with their own eyes.

It's the generation which had "filled up the cup" of their own fathers slaying the prophets, by their own supreme offense of betraying and murdering Jesus their prophesied Messiah.

It's the generation of the Jewish leadership and their children, upon whom those adults had called down a blood-guilt curse on their own heads.

It's the generation which Jesus told, "Weep not for me but for yourselves, and for your children".

It's the generation to which the disciples had personally gone out to evangelize their cities, and would not have finished going through all of them before Christ had returned.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are making an argument that those passages are talking of the same thing. Why should I believe that?

Why wouldn't you? I don't see any basis for thinking He would come multiple times when His people would be gathered. There's no indication in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect is something that happens over a long period of time.

Also, isn't the gathering of the elect something that would need to be completed before "this generation" could pass away? How do you make that work with your view that "this generation" passed away in 70 AD?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not at all. Read the verse more closely.

LOL. Oh, is that all it takes? I supposedly just haven't read it closely enough? Okay. I guess the references to peoples, nations, etc. throughout the world is a clue that I should ignore when it comes to understanding the context of those verses, right?

 

[Hammster]

Except you have it wrong. It's not Jesus I don't believe, in regards to this generation, it is your interpretation of that that I don't believe. And I have already laid out numerous reasons why Jesus couldn't have meant that current generation that they were living in at the time, yet it could still involve that generation in some sense even if this is still future, since Jesus could have meant a certain type of ppl, unbelievers in this case. This generation could possibly have multiple meanings rather than just one. But it is not meant to be taken to mean 40 years or so later, that those alive at the time, would see the fulfillment of everything that must be fulfilled before that generation passes away.

It then could be a question of, which generation was Jesus meaning since not everyone were from the same generation? Was He meaning the older among them, which might include some who were in the last 5 or 10 years of their life, thus He lied to these because that generation passed away way before 70 AD? Yet, Jesus said this generation shall not pass away, until. Which generation if not everyone were among the same generation? For example, my grandmother was born in 1905. She died quite some time ago. Actually, everyone from that same generation, those who were born in 1905, that generation has already passed away, literally, unless you know of anyone over 115 years old..

You’ve given reasons, but you either ignore the text, or twist it. So I’ll post this once again:

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable [another member was] referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

 

[Hammster]

Why wouldn't you? I don't see any basis for thinking He would come multiple times when His people would be gathered. There's no indication in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect is something that happens over a long period of time.

Also, isn't the gathering of the elect something that would need to be completed before "this generation" could pass away? How do you make that work with your view that "this generation" passed away in 70 AD?

I’ve explained that multiple times in this thread.

 

[Hammster]

LOL. Oh, is that all it takes? I supposedly just haven't read it closely enough? Okay. I guess the references to peoples, nations, etc. throughout the world is a clue that I should ignore when it comes to understanding the context of those verses, right?

You seem to want to make tribes, tongues, people, and nations to be one group. However, tribes is used by itself earlier. And tribes refers to the tribes of Israel. You have to ignore its usage elsewhere to think it means all people.

 

[keras]

I thought you knew better than that, keras, but apparently not.

You're well aware that "Jewishness" is genetically ubiquitous in the entirety of humanity, so every nation on earth is a "Jewish nation".

Your "Jewish nation" is a secular geopolitical entity sustained only by continuous massive infusions of US largesse.

And you still haven't told us where David's literal physical throne is located.

I DO agree with you.
Those who call themselves Jews have no proof of their descent from Judah.
Everyone in the world today can claim descent from Abraham.

Now; what the Prophets tell us, incl Jesus; is the people in all of the holy Land, will be virtually wiped out. Matthew 8:12, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 12:14, +

 

[DavidPT]

Why wouldn't you? I don't see any basis for thinking He would come multiple times when His people would be gathered. There's no indication in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect is something that happens over a long period of time.

Also, isn't the gathering of the elect something that would need to be completed before "this generation" could pass away? How do you make that work with your view that "this generation" passed away in 70 AD?

Some of these interpreters give the impression via their interpretations that something that is being fulfilled is the same as something that has been fulfilled. For example. Jesus died and rose, something that has been fulfilled, not something that is being fulfilled, thus proving they are not the same thing. The times of the Gentiles, something that is being fulfilled, not something that has been fulfilled, thus proving they are not the same thing.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Jesus said this first then He said the following later.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


How can any person reasonably argue that this---till all be fulfilled--does not include this---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled? In the event some argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled, how is that even a reasonable argument to begin with? Where is the proof that it has already been fulfilled?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You seem to want to make tribes, tongues, people, and nations to be one group. However, tribes is used by itself earlier. And tribes refers to the tribes of Israel. You have to ignore its usage elsewhere to think it means all people.

It is one group of which come from all people groups.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What is the difference between every kindred/tribe and every tongue and every (all) people and every nation? Is that somehow referring to 4 different groups or to the same group of all people (or all people groups) in the world in 4 different ways?

The only way your argument can work is if this was somehow differentiating between every kindred (tribe), every tongue, every people group and every nation as if those are 4 different groups of people. Is that what you think? If so, what is the difference between those who are of every tongue and those who are of every nation, for example?

 

[DavidPT]

You’ve given reasons, but you either ignore the text, or twist it. So I’ll post this once again:

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable [another member was] referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

In regards to Matthew 24:32-33, let's also look at the parallel account in Luke 21 then combine both accounts into one.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Let's combine the two accounts. Luke 21 makes it clear that it the kingdom of God that it near, even at the doors.

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that it is near, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand, even at the doors.

Who was Jesus addressing at the time? His disciples, meaning the church? Or unbelieving Jews? Obviously, not the latter, yet, what happened in 70 AD did involve unbelieving Jews, except it makes zero sense that 70 AD was pertaining to the kingdom of God is nigh at hand, even at the doors. In what way would that have been so? Let's don't ignore what Jesus had just said in the previous verse in Luke 21, in regards to what He just said here.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

As if it make sense that 70 AD has anything to do with verse 28.

 

[Hammster]

It is one group of which come from all people groups.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What is the difference between every kindred/tribe and every tongue and every (all) people and every nation? Is that somehow referring to 4 different groups or to the same group of all people (or all people groups) in the world in 4 different ways?

The only way your argument can work is if this was somehow differentiating between every kindred (tribe), every tongue, every people group and every nation as if those are 4 different groups of people. Is that what you think? If so, what is the difference between those who are of every tongue and those who are of every nation, for example?

Tribes is used individually to refer to tribes of Israel. If tribes in Matthew 24 was to mean all people, there’d be no need to include people/tongues/nations in Revelation, especially since it’s such a Jewish letter written to people who would be well-versed in the scriptures.

 

[John Mullally]

LOL. Oh, is that all it takes? I supposedly just haven't read it closely enough? Okay. I guess the references to peoples, nations, etc. throughout the world is a clue that I should ignore when it comes to understanding the context of those verses, right?

If your goal is to have a productive argument - which is one where some disagreements are resolved and the sticking points are identified as quickly as possible, it helps to define exactly what you don't agree with.

If your goal is to exhaust the patience of the other person, the tactic would be to be as dismissive and vague as you can get away with.

 

[Hammster]

In regards to Matthew 24:32-33, let's also look at the parallel account in Luke 21 then combine both accounts into one.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Let's combine the two accounts. Luke 21 makes it clear that it the kingdom of God that it near, even at the doors.

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that it is near, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand, even at the doors.

Who was Jesus addressing at the time? His disciples, meaning the church? Or unbelieving Jews? Obviously, not the latter, yet, what happened in 70 AD did involve unbelieving Jews, except it makes zero sense that 70 AD was pertaining to the kingdom of God is nigh at hand, even at the doors. In what way would that have been so? Let's don't ignore what Jesus had just said in the previous verse in Luke 21, in regards to what He just said here.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

As if it make sense that 70 AD has anything to do with verse 28.

Since the kingdom is here, I’m not really sure what your point is, and I don’t want to assume your meaning. All the things Jesus spoke of (these things) came to pass prior to the destruction of the temple.