Third Temple is a Wrong Teaching

[Yekcidmij]

Everything.


For example:

To say that Modern Israel and 1st century Israel have anything in common would be like saying 1st century Israel and the Davidic Israel have anything in common.


Time has that affect, but Gods plan is divine.

All prophecy will be fulfilled, as it is written.



Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you view it, the OT is filled with prophecy concerning Israel that is yet to be fulfilled, but rest assure, it will be fulfilled. there is no prophecy of the Bible that is not gong to be fulfilled.

Regardless of what you think about prophecy, there is more continuity between Israel of the 1st century and the Israel of monarchies than there is between either and the modern state of Israel.

Israel today has:

-no king
-no high priest
-a different law
-no temple
-no sacrifices
-a different structure of government

At least the 1st century Israel had those things.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Regardless of what you think about prophecy, there is more continuity between Israel of the 1st century and the Israel of monarchies than there is between either and the modern state of Israel.

Israel today has:

-no king
-no high priest
-a different law
-no temple
-no sacrifices

At least the 1st century Israel had those things.

Show me the temple in Jerusalem during Davids reign as King and you have my attention.


Salvation has always been about faith, not animal sacrifices, something the modern Jew knows more than the the 1st century Jew ever could.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Show me the temple in Jerusalem during Davids reign as King and you have my attention.


Salvation has always been about faith, not animal sacrifices, something the modern Jew knows more than the the 1st century Jew ever could.

The tabernacle was in existence in David's day.

2 Sam 6:17 They brought the ark of the Lord and put it in its place in the middle of the tent that David had pitched for it. Then David offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before the Lord. 6:18 When David finished offering the burnt sacrifices and peace offerings, he pronounced a blessing over the people in the name of the Lord of hosts

 

[OneAccordRM]

The tabernacle was in existence in David's day.

2 Sam 6:17 They brought the ark of the Lord and put it in its place in the middle of the tent that David had pitched for it. Then David offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before the Lord. 6:18 When David finished offering the burnt sacrifices and peace offerings, he pronounced a blessing over the people in the name of the Lord of hosts

What Im trying to do is draw the contrast between Israel over time.

For example, when the Jews were exiled to babylon, Why did the Lord show the prophets favor?

They had no temple, and were under babylonian rule.

Did God forsake them?

Nope

 

[Yekcidmij]

What Im trying to do is draw the contrast between Israel over time.

For example, when the Jews were exiled to babylon, Why did the Lord show the prophets favor?

They had no temple, and were under babylonian rule.

Did God forsake them?

Nope

I don't think the state of Israel could be considered in exile anymore, or if they are, that would prove my point that the State of Israel is not the Israel of the bible. If they aren't in exile, then they don't look like the Israel of God for the reasons listed above.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Something else for you to ponder.

Is a Jew forgiven of his sins for the sacrifice if he doesnt believe in God?

What Im saying is, what good is the sacrifice without faith?

Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Oh, and the title of the thread is still wrong. Herod built the 3rd Temple.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Is a Jew forgiven of his sins for the sacrifice if he doesnt believe in God?

I don't know, does the Jew you're thinking about believe that Jesus the Messiah is Lord?

What Im saying is, what good is the sacrifice without faith?

It's no good without Jesus and because of what he's already accomplished. But as a Christian I'm biased on this matter.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I don't think the state of Israel could be considered in exile anymore, or if they are, that would prove my point that the State of Israel is not the Israel of the bible. If they aren't in exile, then they don't look like the Israel of God for the reasons listed above.

Of course they arent in exile anymore, they returned.

But just as they did before the temple was rebuilt after returning from Babylon, and while they were in exile in Babylon, God never forsook them did he?

Nope.

Eze 38:8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

Eze 34:13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.

Eze 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

Isa 60:21 "Then all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.


God talks through his written word.


You are going to have a tough time with Amos 9:15 if you apply it to Israel prior to 70ad.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I don't know, does the Jew you're thinking about believe that Jesus the Messiah is Lord?



It's no good without Jesus and because of what he's already accomplished. But as a Christian I'm biased on this matter.

Answer my questions pertaining to the Jew before God incarnated in the flesh, before Jesus was born.


What good was the sacrifice without faith?

What good is the baptism without faith?


We do these things, but the faith is what God wants, othewise, you are barbecuing and swimming.

 

[Yekcidmij]

You are going to have a tough time with Amos 9:15 if you apply it to Israel prior to 70ad.

Technically, Amos is delivering a message to and about Israel - as in the Northern Kingdom.

7:10 Amaziah the priest of Bethel sent this message to King Jeroboam of Israel: “Amos is conspiring against you in the very heart of the kingdom of Israel! The land cannot endure all his prophecies

8:14 These are the ones who now take oaths in the name of the sinful idol goddess of Samaria.
​

For Amos, "Israel" is the kingdom of Jeroboam; the Northern Kingdom. I guess I would also fail to see how the modern state of Israel is connected to the Northern Kingdom, especially considering they don't control the tribal territory of the North.

However, there is a group of Samaritans that have been living in Samaria near/on Mt. Gerizim (near the biblical Shechem). They have been there for several thousand years; and they actually still do sacrifices (though their temple is long gone). These guys are always ignored though. If anyone is to be identified closely with the Israel Amos would know, maybe these guys are closest?

Samaritan Passover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NONjxwjFp68

 

[OneAccordRM]

If anyone is to be identified closely with the Israel Amos would know, maybe these guys are closest?

Are you saying the Jews never left?

All Im saying that God is sovereign, over all creation.


The Jews returned to Israel, as it was written, this could not have happened if God did not allow it to be so.

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

And he did, as Ive shown you in prior scripture, as he told us the Jews would return.

The Jews must be in Israel, otherwise there is no reason for Christ to descend on Mt of Olives.

Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Again, the scriptural evidence for the return of the Jews speaks clearly.

Eze 38:8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

Eze 34:13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.

Eze 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

Isa 60:21 "Then all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.

 

[Interplanner]

But a lot has happened since it was written, OneA. Did you know that the 'raised up fallen tent of David' was actually the nations coming to faith under Paul's ministry? if that means that, just think how living and vibrant the text actually is. From the interp of Joel 2 in Acts 2, the use of the OT by the NT is far from literal, and usually about Christ initiating his kingdom in the preaching of the Gospel.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Are you saying the Jews never left?

For Amos, "Israel" is the Northern Kingom, which was ruled by Jeroboam in Amos' day. His prophecies are to/for/about Israel-the Northern Kingdom. So when Amos says, "9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel," I can only conclude that he's talking about the Northern Kingdom.

What I am saying about the Samaritans (ie, the northern Israelites) is they never really completely left. They rebuilt their temple sometime in the 5th century BC and seem to have been there ever since. There is evidence in Nehemiah and Ezra that they were already there when the Jewish exiles began filtering back from Babylon, not to mention the records of Sennacherib and Sargon II that indicate they didn't exile all the Israelites/Northern Kingdom.

 

[OneAccordRM]

For Amos, "Israel" is the Northern Kingom, which was ruled by Jeroboam in Amos' day. His prophecies are to/for/about Israel-the Northern Kingdom. So when Amos says, "9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel," I can only conclude that he's talking about the Northern Kingdom.

What I am saying about the Samaritans (ie, the northern Israelites) is they never really left. They rebuilt their temple sometime in the 5th century BC and seem to have been there ever since. There is evidence in Nehemiah and Ezra that they were already there when the Jewish exiles began filtering back from Babylon, not to mention the records of Sargon II that indicate that he didn't exile all the Israelites/Northern Kingdom.

So are you saying that Israel has been continuously occupied by the Jews since the Jews returned from Babylon is some way shape or form until the present day?

 

[Yekcidmij]

So are you saying that Israel has been continuously occupied by the Jews since the Jews returned from Babylon is some way shape or form until the present day?

You brought up Amos 9:15 as a prophecy about Israel and implying that somehow the state of Israel is fulfilling this prophecy. I'm saying that when Amos talks about Israel, he's talking about the Northern Kingdom. If he wants to talk about the Southern Kingdom, he calls it "Judah." I'm further contending that in no way does the modern state of Israel have anything to do with Amos 9:15 since (a) Amos 9:14 clearly states that he's talking about Israel/the Northern Kingdom and (b) the state of Israel does not control all the tribal lands of Israel/the Northerners. In no way can modern Israel be in view based on that passage.

I further point out that the Samaritans seem to have never gone anywhere. The Northern Kingdom was sacked ~721BC, but Assyria didn't opt for the same mass deportations that the later Babylonians did. Assyria opted more for a colonialization and resettlement of it's own citizens into conquered areas. Though the Assyrians seem to have hauled off much of the leadership of the North, the Northen Israelites by and large didn't go anywhere. In fact, Assyria had to send back the priest(s) in order to placate the population. They rebuilt their temple sometime in the 5th century BC, and though it was to be destroyed, rebuilt and destroyed again, the descendents/population still seem to be there.

 

[OneAccordRM]

You brought up Amos 9:15 as a prophecy about Israel and implying that somehow the state of Israel is fulfilling this prophecy. I'm saying that when Amos talks about Israel, he's talking about the Northern Kingdom. If he wants to talk about the Southern Kingdom, he calls it "Judah." I'm further contending that in no way does the modern state of Israel have anything to do with Amos 9:15 since (a) Amos 9:14 clearly states that he's talking about Israel/the Northern Kingdom and (b) the state of Israel does not control all the tribal lands of Israel/the Northerners. In no way can modern Israel be in view based on that passage.

I further point out that the Samaritans seem to have never gone anywhere. The Northern Kingdom was sacked ~721BC, but Assyria didn't opt for the same mass deportations that the later Babylonians did. Assyria opted more for a colonialization and resettlement of it's own citizens into conquered areas. Though the Assyrians seem to have hauled off much of the leadership of the North, the Northen Israelites by and large didn't go anywhere. In fact, Assyria had to send back the priest(s) in order to placate the population. They rebuilt their temple sometime in the 5th century BC, and though it was to be destroyed, rebuilt and destroyed again, the descendents/population still seem to be there.

Lets look at this again.

Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.


Has modern Israel in fact rebuilt the ruined cities? I submit they have.

Have they planted vineyards? Gardens? Yes, again, they have, with israel being one of the largest produce exporters in the world.


Further, if anyone occupied Israel prior to 70ad, then God would be lying, simply because the Lord you God says, and Ill quote it again.

"And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them"


I get the semantics dance, but its not necessary, God is rather objective in his word, and hes not the author of confusion, which begs the question.


Why say it if it isnt true?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Lets look at this again.

Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.


Has modern Israel in fact rebuilt the ruined cities? I submit they have.

Have they planted vineyards? Gardens? Yes, again, they have, with israel being one of the largest produce exporters in the world.


Further, if anyone occupied Israel prior to 70ad, then God would be lying, simply because the Lord you God says, and Ill quote it again.

"And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them"


I get the semantics dance, but its not necessary, God is rather objective in his word, and hes not the author of confusion, which begs the question.


Why say it if it isnt true?

So Amos is talking about the Northern Kingdom when he talks about "Israel." Besides, the modern state of Israel doesn't control the tribal lands of the north. Not only is the modern state not in view in Amos 9:15, they don't even control all the territory of the Northern Kingdom.

Amos' prophecy is about the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians. If you're looking for Israelites that rebuilt and haven't gone anywhere since, I suggest that the Samaritan popultion is your most likely candidate. I mean, they did rebuild their temple in the 5th century BC, not to mention their cities which they were occuypying well through the Roman period (they were even mentioned in the NT as well), and their descendents still seem to be occupying the same spot.

According to the NT, many of them seem to have been pursuaded that Jesus was the Messiah:

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.

8:25 So after Peter and John had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, proclaiming the good news to many Samaritan villages as they went.

9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened​

 

[OneAccordRM]

So Amos is talking about the Northern Kingdom when he talks about "Israel." Besides, the modern state of Israel doesn't control the tribal lands of the north. Not only is the modern state not in view in Amos 9:15, they don't even control all the territory of the Northern Kingdom.

Amos' prophecy is about the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians. If you're looking for Israelites that rebuilt and haven't gone anywhere since, I suggest that the Samaritan popultion is your most likely candidate. I mean, they did rebuild their temple in the 5th century BC, not to mention their cities which they were occuypying well through the Roman period (they were even mentioned in the NT as well), and their descendents still seem to be occupying the same spot.

According to the NT, many of them seem to have been pursuaded that Jesus was the Messiah:

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.

8:25 So after Peter and John had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, proclaiming the good news to many Samaritan villages as they went.

9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened​

Yes or no, Does Israel contain a population of Jews in any capacity that have never left Israel.


We can dance all day, lets cut to the chase.

 

[Yekcidmij]

This hasn't been a semantic dance either. I'm just reading what Amos says. I can see from Amos' own writing that he has the Northern Kingdom in mind. It's not semantics - it's reading in context, which in this case is thankfully easy.