Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[Douggg]

It is near, even at the doors. Jesus isn't just being poetic here, He's talking about the gates of the city, with the Romans besieging it. He was giving them the signs to look out for concerning the coming calamity upon the city. That's why he tells them to learn the lesson from the fig tree.

-CryptoLutheran

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did not happen in 70AD. So that was not the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Does He tell them that their generation would see His return? Or does He say they will see the Son of Man coming into His kingdom?

The language Jesus uses here is pulled directly from Daniel, where the Son of Man is taken up on a cloud before the Ancient of Days and given all dominion and power and authority. Compare this with the accounts of the Ascension. For example what does the Lord say in Matthew 28:18? How about in Acts of the Apostles 1:9?

It is true enough that when our Lord comes in glory as judge of the living and the dead He comes with everlasting and eternal kingdom. As we know His reign and kingdom is eternal (Luke 1:33), and it is the Christian hope that our Lord return, the dead are raised, and God make all things new. We look forward to new heavens and new earth, where God is all in all.

But the kingdom isn't purely future, but also present reality. Which is why He told us that we enter the kingdom though new birth; it is why St. Paul speaks not only of our future reign with the Lord, but also this as a present reality, writing that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places.

The Son of Man came into His kingdom when He ascended into heaven, exalted, and seated at the right hand of Majesty on High, where He lives and reigns as King Messiah, through His Church, until the day He makes all things subject to Himself, the final enemy being death. Then He shall return, the dead rise, and He shall deliver all things over to the Father and God shall be all in all.

And that generation did see these things come to pass, they bore witness of it when He was taken up into the heavens, exalted to the right hand of God the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

You're referring to a different part of scripture, Matthew 16:28, which I think there are actually 2 ways to interpret it. The first is your interpretation which is referring to the ascension. That's true, that happened. The other, which is just something I more recently thought about reading through Revelation again was that John did not die until He saw Jesus' return to earth in a vision. John actually witnessed Jesus being coronated as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So either way what Jesus said was true, at least 1 apostle witnessed Jesus coming into His kingdom. Most of them saw the ascension, and John actually saw the Millennial Kingdom.

Either way, while Matthew 16:28 was definitely to the apostles and was totally true
Matthew 24:34 was not referring to the same thing.

 

[Jamdoc]

Right. The destruction of Jerusalem.

which is immediately before His appearing in the clouds..
why do people trying to split the narrative always seem to forget
immediately after

 

[Hammster]

Except he did. He told to watch for these signs and that the generation who saw those things begin to happen would see all of those things be fulfilled including his appearing in the clouds before they passed away.
If you believe that he was referring to the generation of people in front of him, then you'd be a preterist claiming that it was already all fulfilled (usually in 70AD)

Well, if I believe that He was referring to the generation of people in front of Him it’s because that’s who He was referring to. He said it repeatedly.

 

[Hammster]

which is immediately before His appearing in the clouds..
why do people trying to split the narrative always seem to forget
immediately after

I haven’t.

 

[Timtofly]

Define "soon".

I do not have to define soon. I live it.

 

[Jamdoc]

I haven’t.

It's been almost 2000 years since AD70. So either you have a very funny way of interpreting "immediately after".. or it's incorrect to divide the discourse like that.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, if I believe that He was referring to the generation of people in front of Him it’s because that’s who He was referring to. He said it repeatedly.

Then you believe that Jesus was lying, because what He said didn't end up resulting in His return.

immediately after

 

[Hammster]

It's been almost 2000 years since AD70. So either you have a very funny way of interpreting "immediately after".. or it's incorrect to divide the discourse like that.

I’m not dividing the discourse.

 

[Hammster]

Then you believe that Jesus was lying, because what He said didn't end up resulting in His return.

immediately after

I don’t believe He was lying.

 

[Timtofly]

Herein is the danger of that: When Jesus doesn't show up and everyone who was alive at either of those dates begins to die off from old age within the next several decades how are people who believe in this going to cope?

Again, look to William Miller and Harold Camping and the colossal failures and the resulting shock and disappointment that came afterward.

By linking the Lord's return to such things people set themselves up for disappointment, they are setting themselves on the path toward shipwrecking their faith.

If the Lord does return, say tomorrow, then glory be to God.
But Christ teaches us to prepare ourselves for the long haul in this world, He will return, but we don't know when, and so our job is to be a faithful people here and now.

We are to be a people of faith, hope, and love in this world.

-CryptoLutheran

The church did not fall apart nor cease to exist in 71AD. She is still going strong as God planned 1950 years later. Do you not think your logic applies to those in 70AD in regards to the word soon? Did they all give up then?

I think hypocrisy in the church is a worse condition than figuring out what "soon" is.

 

[Jamdoc]

I don’t believe He was lying.

Okay so you believe that Jesus returned in the Apostle's lifetimes yet don't claim to believe He returned in AD70?
Yet you believe that what Jesus was talking about in the discourse, (which included His appearing in the clouds immediately after those tribulations) was about historical events?

 

[Hammster]

Okay so you believe that Jesus returned in the Apostle's lifetimes yet don't claim to believe He returned in AD70?

You put a question mark at the end, but I don’t see a question.

Yet you believe that what Jesus was talking about in the discourse, (which included His appearing in the clouds immediately after those tribulations) was about historical events?

Again, another question mark without a question.

 

[Jamdoc]

You put a question mark at the end, but I don’t see a question.


Again, another question mark without a question.

Both are questions.
You said you believed that the Olivet Discourse was referring to the generation of Apostles that would see all these things be fulfilled
I am asking how you can believe that, when they all died, before seeing all these things be fulfilled considering one of those things, the capstone at the end of those things, Jesus returning in the clouds, did not happen.
How can you believe that?

 

[Hammster]

Both are questions.
You said you believed that the Olivet Discourse was referring to the generation of Apostles that would see all these things be fulfilled
I am asking how you can believe that, when they all died, before seeing all these things be fulfilled considering one of those things, the capstone at the end of those things, Jesus returning in the clouds, did not happen.
How can you believe that?

It did happen, if you understand what He was saying. You have to understand the cloud reference, though.

 

[ViaCrucis]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did not happen in 70AD. So that was not the parable of the fig tree generation.

I have tried to make it a habit of mine to, when possible, find out how the ancient fathers spoke about these things. Fortunately St. John Chrysostom's homilies are extensive, and he often goes into a lot of depth.

"'Then.' When? Here, as I have often said, the word, 'then,' relates not to the connection in order of time with the things before mentioned. At least, when He was minded to express the connection of time, He added, 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days,' but here not so, but, 'then,' not meaning what should follow straightway after these things, but what should be in the time, when these things were to be done, of which He was about to speak. So also when it is said, 'In those days comes John the Baptist,' he is not speaking of the time that should straightway follow, but that many years after, and that in which these things were done, of which He was about to speak. For, in fact, having spoken of the birth of Jesus, and of the coming of the magi, and of the death of Herod, He at once says, 'In those days comes John the Baptist;' although thirty years had intervened. But this is customary in the Scripture, I mean, to use this manner of narration. So then here also, having passed over all the intermediate time from the taking of Jerusalem unto the preludes of the consummation, He speaks of the time just before the consummation. 'Then,' He says therefore, 'if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not.'" - Homily 76 on Matthew

Continuing,

"Then He tells of fearful prodigies. What are these prodigies? 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days,' says He, 'the sun shall be darkened.' Of the tribulation of what days does He speak? Of those of Antichrist and of the false prophets? For there shall be great tribulation, there being so many deceivers. But it is not protracted to a length of time. For if the Jewish war was shortened for the elect's sake, much more shall this temptation be limited for these same's sake. Therefore, He said not, 'after the tribulation,' but immediately 'after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,' for almost at the same time all things come to pass. For the false prophets and false Christs shall come and cause confusion, and immediately He Himself will be here. Because no small turmoil is then to prevail over the world.

But how does He come? The very creation being then transfigured, for 'the sun shall be darkened,' not destroyed, but overcome by the light of His presence; and the stars shall fall, for what shall be the need of them thenceforth, there being no night? And 'the powers of Heaven shall be shaken,' and in all likelihood, seeing so great a change come to pass. For if when the stars were made, they trembled and marvelled ('for when the stars were made, all angels,' it is said, 'praised Me with a loud voice'); much more seeing all things in course of change, and their fellow servants giving account, and the whole world standing by that awful judgment-seat, and those who have lived from Adam unto His coming, having an account demanded of them of all that they did, how shall they but tremble, and be shaken?" - ibid.

John is very careful to make a distinction between the events of the Jewish-Roman War and the future consummation of history. Which is precisely--I think--what we ought aim to be doing in this text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

It did happen, if you understand what He was saying. You have to understand the cloud reference, though.

Jesus didn't come down from heaven in the clouds with power and great glory at any time in the past.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus didn't come down from heaven in the clouds with power and great glory at any time in the past.

Mkay.

 

[Douggg]

I have tried to make it a habit of mine to, when possible, find out how the ancient fathers spoke about these things.

Big mistake as far as eschatology is concerned. They did not live at the time of the end when the book of Daniel time of the end events are unsealed for understanding and fulfillment. Daniel 12:4. Daniel 12:9.

John is very careful to make a distinction between the events of the Jewish-Roman War and the future consummation of history. Which is precisely--I think--what we ought aim to be doing in this text.

John Chrysostom in that sermon, commentary, did not tie Matthew 24:30a to the sixth seal event in Revelation 6. He was just making commentary and spoke in generalities because he did not know any better. He was said to be an eloquent speaker.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did not happen in 70AD. So that was not the parable of the fig tree generation. Parable of the fig tree generation are making posts in this forum right now.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Big mistake as far as eschatology is concerned. They did not live at the time of the end when the book of Daniel time of the end events are unsealed for understanding and fulfillment. Daniel 12:4. Daniel 12:9.

That is an immensely flawed way of looking at things. The Bible says what it says. If one has to dismiss the historic views of the past in order to claim new revelations and inspiration then they are doing things very wrong.

-CryptoLutheran