Things to consider about the Ten Commandments

[from scratch]

I never said a new contract MUST be written; the ungodly take their matters to a human court. A gracious creditor MAY revise the repayment options to benefit the debtor. You ever heard of a grace period?



They do not benefit from the contract directly, they are normally subcontracted, or receive payment for labor from the party or parties specified in the contract. You want me to believe that you honor 613 laws when you argue with me about keeping just 10? I never excluded any of them, I just began our discussion with a small number, most torah scholars should be able to count to 10 using both hands.

Personally I like the New Covenant much better. If you're upset by it by all means try your best to keep the old one. But don't tell me I have to. I'm not going to take God to task over it.

 

[LarryP2]

They do not benefit from the contract directly, they are normally subcontracted, or receive payment for labor from the party or parties specified in the contract. You want me to believe that you honor 613 laws when you argue with me about keeping just 10? I never excluded any of them, I just began our discussion with a small number, most torah scholars should be able to count to 10 using both hands.

Not true. You have shown your hand once again and it is once again empty. MANY contracts are construed by the courts to benefit third parties when neither of the parties that drafted the contract had any intention of benefiting them! And I am not talking about subcontractors either. It would be best for you to cease talking about the law, when it is obvious you have no background in it and lack the innate ability to grasp it. And to have a contract "rewritten" as you so clumsily and inartfully described it is often much more difficult, expensive, stressful and traumatic than enforcing the old one in court. At the very least Courts offer finality and an end to the blood-letting and feuding. "Rewriting" contracts is often the proverbial "death by a thousand cuts." Been there done that have the T-shirt. As a legal layperson, you might have a vague gut-feeling based on your total lack of experience in such matters that rewriting a contract or giving out "grace periods" is a nice thing to do, but you have no idea of the reality of how extraordinarily stressful it can be for ANYONE involved in those situations. One false move on that tightwire can succeed in destroying both the contract negotiations AND also destroy your case in court. Your responses indicate a complete lack of experience in these matters. All the more reason to stick with the very simple Gospel and abandon your pseudo-intellectual and pseudo-Jewish pretensions.

"Most Torah scholars" - actually NONE of them - would extract the Ten Commandments out of the 613 and hold them up and examine them like dusty museum specimens. That has never been permissible. The Ten Commandments - like any other portion of law taken out of context - are unenforceable outside of the legal structure they are placed in. Only modern-day Judaizers believe that they can be. That you think it is possible once again demonstrates your lack of familiarity with law in general, and with the Torah in particular and with your complete unawareness of the operation of the Sanhedrin. I never claimed to honor the 613, OR the Ten, nor have I said that I TRY to honor either one of them. I am not an Israelite and I was never delivered from Egyptian Bondage, and neither are you. Your pretending otherwise and using pseudo-Jewish and pseudo-legal terminology is not convincing. Again, we would ALL do better to just abandon the junk Old Testament Law that Paul insisted was "nailed to the cross" and focus on the very simple Gospel that can actually provide those dramatic changes in human life. Paul was a trained lawyer in the Sanhedrin system, he knew what he was talking about when he described the law as being an awful and horrible thing, and dead, powerful hand incapable of changing the human heart. The Law never saved anyone, never improved anyone and never came close to resolving the issue of human sinfulness. The Law, the Sabbath, the 613 are all just moldy garbage that was thrown away for good no later than Resurrection morning. Take the word of law experts: Leave that trash in the dumpster where it belongs.

I do not pretend to honor, or try to honor the traffic laws of Brazil, nor do the Ten Commandments mean ANYTHING to a Christian. Their duties are well set forth in detail in the New Testament. And the real live gospel can be understood by anyone that is sitting at a traffic light, who inadvertently glances at a billboard blaring John 3:16 They can be saved before the light turns Green. THAT is real Christianity, not this arrogant, tedious and uninformed obsession with the obsolete Old Testament Law.

 

[mercy1061]

It is clear from the authority I posted that Deuteronomy 4:13 is mistranslated if it says "Ten Commandments." The reason I posted what I did is that legalists are fond of making illegitimate appeals to authority that have no basis. They throw around their pseudo-Jewish terms like they know something, when it is obvious they don't. The Old Testament is clear: There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equal and form a unitary body of law. The "Ten Commandments" are not due any more reverence or importance than the other 603. I wrote in response to pseudo-Jewish junk thought like the following:



And the writer of that statement has dishonored the Torah by taking parts of it out of context that was never permissible, and pretending to be an authority on it when they clearly are not. By pretending to be knowledgeable about the Torah when you clearly are not, you have desecrated and defiled it. Seventh Day Adventism went through a similar debacle in 1888, where they discussed Righteousness by Faith. Apparently there were teams of opposing views that argued out what they imagined the Old Testament Law to be, when in reality, they knew nothing about Law or theology.




This is puerile discussion of "law" that the average college freshman could easily surpass. None of your statements are true in all cases, and some of them are so vague and general they are virtually unenforceable. They are the clear statements of a legal layperson that has no business holding forth on the Law. Clearly, you know nothing about Law.



The Sabbath is one of 613 and if you break any of them you have broken them all. You also break the Sabbath by claiming that it is permissible to remove it from the context of the other 613 Commandments. The Ten Commandments cannot be extracted from the other 613. Under the unified legal system of the 613, eating a ham sandwich violates the Sabbath and so does wearing clothes made out of linen and wool. Secondly, you do not keep the Sabbath and you have no knowledge on how to keep it, notwithstanding your pseudo-Jewish terminology. I am sure you THINK that you are keeping the Sabbath, but you are not.

You can no more take the "Ten Commandments" out of the "Law" than you can take the Bill of Rights out of our Constitution and transfer them to Iran or North Korea and expect them to work or to be relevant. Nor can the Ten Commandments be wildly extracted from their proper role within the larger body of law and handed over to Gentiles and expect that is doing God's will. Yet these pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-legal con artists believe they can. They know nothing about Law, even less about the covenants and even less than that about the New Testament.

The very fact you have alot experience in human court, tells me that you have difficulty being honest. Using 613 to condemn your brother does not exempt you from the ten. When you are ready to have an honest discussion about torah, please let me know. You should stop misquoting Pharisee Shaul, it is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

[mercy1061]

Personally I like the New Covenant much better. If you're upset by it by all means try your best to keep the old one. But don't tell me I have to. I'm not going to take God to task over it.

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

 

[LarryP2]

The very fact you have alot experience in human court, tells me that you have difficulty being honest

And to make snap judgments about people you know nothing about displays both your ignorance and your near functional illiteracy. I am guessing that you might have barely graduated from high school with a great deal of difficulty, probably repeating a few grades here and there. Am I right? If so, you really have no business thinking about law, let alone writing about it. When your ignorance is manifest, you have a ethical responsibility to the general public to avoid misleading others.

Let me make it clear what I am getting at, so there is no way that you cannot comprehend my position: The Gospel is summed up in John 3:16. The average person can be saved by accepting that, reading the highway billboard going down the freeway at 70 mph. No Christian needs ANY instruction in the Old Testament Law, which no longer exists for them.

. Using 613 to condemn your brother does not exempt you from the ten. When you are are ready to have an honest discussion about torah, please let me know. You should stop misquoting Pharisee Shaul, it is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor.

It sounds like here you are attempting to "Cuisinart" random feel-good parts of the Sermon on the Mount with a few pet fragments of Old Testament Law, coupled with an uninformed hatred of St. Paul. All stitched together with hubristic pseudo-legal and pseudo-Hebraic jargon. Take Paul's advice as a big huge favor: legally-speaking, you are clear out of your depth and probably could never understand the simplest wisdom of St. Paul if you spent the entire rest of your life trying. Ditch the juvenile fantasy that tells you you are capable of understanding or following the Old Testament Law. Your Jewish-sounding jargon is embarrassing. Some of your lines sound like they were ones used by Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men."

The Gospel is simple. You will never be publicly embarrassed by the simple Gospel.

Use it.

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Your attempt at humor, world weary-wisdom and irony failed. There was a lot of wisdom being handed to you on a silver platter about the New Covenant. Instead of displaying your ignorance publicly, you ought to have appreciated that generous offer and understood it for what it is: A true Gift.

 

[from scratch]

The very fact you have alot experience in human court, tells me that you have difficulty being honest. Using 613 to condemn your brother does not exempt you from the ten. When you are ready to have an honest discussion about torah, please let me know. You should stop misquoting Pharisee Shaul, it is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor.

The law is a single indivisible unit. The Ten Commandments are called the law by both James and Paul. The Jews didn't separate them and neither can you.

 

[from scratch]

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Then Jesus and the prophets lied and all of the New Testament is a lie. That means there's no salvation or eternal life.

 

[Elder 111]

One more time, with feeling
The most glaring variance you made with Scripture was when you contradicted yourself in a manner that was too obvious to miss. And you didn't address your mistake, so it bears repeating...

Good. Fix your previous mistake.

See your own contradiction: your claim that God didn't ordain the Ten Commandments, concurrent with a claim that He did. The bondwoman was defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in v.24, which is the Ten Commandments. Those retained by it have no claim to eternal life, as they are outside God's redemption.

I made my point you never addessed it. What you want is for me to agree with you but I agree with scripture. You just insist that your interpretation is the correct one, so be it.

 

[VictorC]

I made my point you never addessed it. What you want is for me to agree with you but I agree with scripture. You just insist that your interpretation is the correct one, so be it.

You didn't make a point at all. You directly contradicted Scripture, which the inspired author interpreted for the reader: the bondwoman = the covenant from Mount Sinai, which is the Ten Commandments. So no, it is obvious that you don't agree with Scripture.

Review your contradiction again:

First of all, you once again reversed the relationship of what kept whom until the time appointed by God.
Second of all, those retained by the bondwoman covenant from Mount Sinai have absolutely no claim to eternal life with the Heir: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” (Galatians 4:30)

God did not ordain the bondwoman, that was man's doings: Sarah and Abraham. The ten Commandments on the other hand is directly from God.

See your own contradiction: your claim that God didn't ordain the Ten Commandments, concurrent with a claim that He did. The bondwoman was defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in v.24, which is the Ten Commandments. Those retained by it have no claim to eternal life, as they are outside God's redemption.

 

[mercy1061]

And to make snap judgments about people you know nothing about displays both your ignorance and your near functional illiteracy. I am guessing that you might have barely graduated from high school with a great deal of difficulty, probably repeating a few grades here and there. Am I right?

I thought I told you, that you seem to have difficulty being honest?

If so, you really have no business thinking about law, let alone writing about it. When your ignorance is manifest, you have a ethical responsibility to the general public to avoid misleading others.

I understand why you spend so much time in court! You need humans to resolve your issues.

Let me make it clear what I am getting at, so there is no way that you cannot comprehend my position: The Gospel is summed up in John 3:16. The average person can be saved by accepting that, reading the highway billboard going down the freeway at 70 mph. No Christian needs ANY instruction in the Old Testament Law, which no longer exists for them.

There will be no John 3:16 without Gen 1; you are excluding alot of books within the same book. Did you know that salvation existed in the old testament?

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

It sounds like here you are attempting to "Cuisinart" random feel-good parts of the Sermon on the Mount with a few pet fragments of Old Testament Law, coupled with an uninformed hatred of St. Paul. All stitched together with hubristic pseudo-legal and pseudo-Hebraic jargon. Take Paul's advice as a big huge favor: legally-speaking, you are clear out of your depth and probably could never understand the simplest wisdom of St. Paul if you spent the entire rest of your life trying. Ditch the juvenile fantasy that tells you you are capable of understanding or following the Old Testament Law. Your Jewish-sounding jargon is embarrassing. Some of your lines sound like they were ones used by Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men."

The Gospel is simple. You will never be publicly embarrassed by the simple Gospel.

Use it.

The gospel message includes torah;

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Your attempt at humor, world weary-wisdom and irony failed. There was a lot of wisdom being handed to you on a silver platter about the New Covenant. Instead of displaying your ignorance publicly, you ought to have appreciated that generous offer and understood it for what it is: A true Gift.

I am sorry I don't eat unclean meat.

 

[mercy1061]

Then Jesus and the prophets lied and all of the New Testament is a lie. That means there's no salvation or eternal life.

No, there is just nothing new under the sun.

Ec 1
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[mercy1061]

The law is a single indivisible unit. The Ten Commandments are called the law by both James and Paul. The Jews didn't separate them and neither can you.

I never divided the law; there are 613 commandments. Please show me where I seperated the law? I mean we can't agree to obey 10 simple commandments; how can I possible explain the other 603 laws when many refuse to obey just 10?

 

[LarryP2]

I thought I told you, that you seem to have difficulty being honest?

And like all legalists, you are actually ignorant of the Law and have no way of rectifying that deficit. Even more so in your latest posts, you have no way of ever getting to the point of comprehending how law actually works. Your best option is the simple gospel. You have lied more about your background in four posts (that you follow the Torah etc) that I have lied in my life. You do not understand the Torah even on a basic elementary level.

I understand why you spend so much time in court! You need humans to resolve your issues.

And you are grandiose and vain enough to think you don't. The least you could do if you are going to go around broadcasting your phony and dishonest Jewish Jargon Schtick is to learn how to use the words in the correct context......if even something THAT elementary is possible for you. Which I doubt.

There will be no John 3:16 without Gen 1; you are excluding alot of books within the same book. Did you know that salvation existed in the old testament?

Total junk! Knowledge of Genesis 1 is not only not necessary for Salvation, it is not even useful! You have made it obvious that you do not understand the Old OR the New Testament. Nor did you cite even one of your discombobulated proof texts to show that you could.

The gospel message includes torah;

You of all people should be thankful that is not true. It would take a lifetime of "bonehead" remedial Torah study for you to be able to discuss it in a semi-intelligent fashion. Your really cannot possibly think the Ephesians 1 text that you cited indicates that the Torah is necessary!

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

I never divided the law; there are 613 commandments. Please show me where I seperated the law? I mean we can't agree to obey 10 simple commandments; how can I possible explain the other 603 laws when many refuse to obey just 10?

What a fake! You are the kind of phony Messianic Jew wannabe that runs in terror at the first glimpse of the grinning Rabbi with the dull circumcision knife. You have no intention of actually keeping the law let alone understanding it, since the very first thing hypocritical-pikers do is abandon the Death Penalty that is mandatory for most law breaking of the Mosaic Law. So until I see you guys start to have a few executions of your fellow pikers, I just laugh at your vain deceit.

I never divided the law; there are 613 commandments. Please show me where I seperated the law? I mean we can't agree to obey 10 simple commandments; how can I possible explain the other 603 laws when many refuse to obey just 10?

The fact that you have in fact used the phrase "The Ten Commandments" indicates your intention of ignoring all of the other remaining 603. How incredibly convenient!

 

[Sophrosyne]

I never divided the law; there are 613 commandments. Please show me where I seperated the law? I mean we can't agree to obey 10 simple commandments; how can I possible explain the other 603 laws when many refuse to obey just 10?

If you aren't explaining the 10 as an integral part of the 613 then you are probably involved in deception to sucker folks into the Law a few commandments at a time starting at 10 then adding 11 and 12 and....

 

[mercy1061]

And like all legalists, you are actually ignorant of the Law and have no way of rectifying that deficit. Even more so in your latest posts, you have no way of ever getting to the point of comprehending how law actually works. Your best option is the simple gospel. You have lied more about your background in four posts (that you follow the Torah etc) that I have lied in my life. You do not understand the Torah even on a basic elementary level.





And you are grandiose and vain enough to think you don't. The least you could do if you are going to go around broadcasting your phony and dishonest Jewish Jargon Schtick is to learn how to use the words in the correct context......if even something THAT elementary is possible for you. Which I doubt.






Total junk! Knowledge of Genesis 1 is not only not necessary for Salvation, it is not even useful! You have made it obvious that you do not understand the Old OR the New Testament. Nor did you cite even one of your discombobulated proof texts to show that you could.



You of all people should be thankful that is not true. It would take a lifetime of "bonehead" remedial Torah study for you to be able to discuss it in a semi-intelligent fashion. Your really cannot possibly think the Ephesians 1 text that you cited indicates that the Torah is necessary!

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—



What a fake! You are the kind of phony Messianic Jew wannabe that runs in terror at the first glimpse of the grinning Rabbi with the dull circumcision knife. You have no intention of actually keeping the law let alone understanding it, since the very first thing hypocritical-pikers do is abandon the Death Penalty that is mandatory for most law breaking of the Mosaic Law. So until I see you guys start to have a few executions of your fellow pikers, I just laugh at your vain deceit.



The fact that you have in fact used the phrase "The Ten Commandments" indicates your intention of ignoring all of the other remaining 603. How incredibly convenient!

Your insults will never work for you because you already admitted you do not attempt to keep any of them. Therefore you COULD be a liar, thief, idol worshipper; dishonor sabbath and torah as a whole. It is no need to continue this unfruitful discussion, you are not interested in thoughtful debate. Please do not post to me anymore.

 

[mercy1061]

If you aren't explaining the 10 as an integral part of the 613 then you are probably involved in deception to sucker folks into the Law a few commandments at a time starting at 10 then adding 11 and 12 and....

If you celebrate a parade absent conscious; eating pork and working during the sabbath, what is there to discuss? People say that the 10 commandments are obsolete, thou shall not murder is not applicable to them.

 

[from scratch]

I thought I told you, that you seem to have difficulty being honest?



I understand why you spend so much time in court! You need humans to resolve your issues.




There will be no John 3:16 without Gen 1; you are excluding alot of books within the same book. Did you know that salvation existed in the old testament?

Do you mean Gen 3:15?

Please quote the Old Testament showing salvation as in eternal life. Eph 1 doesn't show it.

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—





The gospel message includes torah;

Please cite an Old Testament passage showing this fact. Eph 1 doesn't do the job.

Eph 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—



I am sorry I don't eat unclean meat.

 

[from scratch]

If you celebrate a parade absent conscious; eating pork and working during the sabbath, what is there to discuss? People say that the 10 commandments are obsolete, thou shall not murder is not applicable to them.

I think someone said such a statement shows one doesn't understand the law. Have you ever seen this verse -

For until the law sin was in the world.

Murder is still a sin as it was prior to the law shown by Moses fleeing Egypt.

 

[mercy1061]

Do you mean Gen 3:15?

Please quote the Old Testament showing salvation as in eternal life. Eph 1 doesn't show it.Please cite an Old Testament passage showing this fact. Eph 1 doesn't do the job.

Did salvation or the Word begin with you?

 

[from scratch]

No, there is just nothing new under the sun.

Ec 1
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

In the face of your proof text my statement stands.