Things have changed over the years

[A_Thinker]

OK, so you are not pretending. Have a nice day.

I guess you really don't have a well-informed opinion ...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The only reason you believe this is due to there being no other alternative. Christianity cannot be what it is historically therefore it must have been corrupted by pagans. This is despite Christian resistance to Paganism being abundantly evident throughout history.

My only concern is that you make Christ incompetent. God is unable to preserve not only his people but even the words of scripture. Amazing.

 

[CherubRam]

The only reason you believe this is due to there being no other alternative. Christianity cannot be what it is historically therefore it must have been corrupted by pagans. This is despite Christian resistance to Paganism being abundantly evident throughout history.

My only concern is that you make Christ incompetent. God is unable to preserve not only his people but even the words of scripture. Amazing.

The Christians who resisted Christian Paganism were killed off.

 

[CherubRam]

Conspiracy

Here are some scriptures to think about.

Psalm 64:2
Hide me from the conspiracy of the wicked, from the plots of evildoers.

Isaiah 8:12
“Do not call conspiracy everything this people calls a conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.

Jeremiah 11:9
Then the LORD said to me, “There is a conspiracy among the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 22:25
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they devour people, take treasures and precious things and make many widows within her.

Jeremiah 8:8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Matthew 27:52
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[CherubRam]

The Bible says that it would be tampered with by evil people. Is there any reason we should not believe that?

 

[CherubRam]

Ezekiel 3:1
And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel.”


Ezekiel 3:3
Then he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it.” So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.


Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty messenger coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.


Revelation 10:2
He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land,


Revelation 10:9
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’”


Revelation 10:10
I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

To eat scriptures is to consume them through study. The word of God is like honey in your mouth.
Psalm 119:103
How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

 

[Andrew77]

Are you guys playing stupid with me?

Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

We are not playing stupid with you. We have clearly, and directly responded to your as of yet, unproven claim.

You are making the claim, that the Bible has fundamentally changed. You said the word "changed". Changed does not mean, added a verse of little sigificance, that does not make any real difference to the meaning of the Bible.

"And there are three that testify on earth"

Yes, it is entirely possible that this verse was added to the Bible that was not in the original.

Do tell, what significance this has to my faith?

You said there are CHANGES to the Bible's meaning over time. If that verse, is the only real significant change in Bible.... then you have no significant change to show as evidence of your claim.

Either provide real evidence of a CHANGE in the meaning of the scriptures, or stop claiming it.

By the way, I'm not Catholic. I don't care what the pope says. Not relevant.

 

[CherubRam]

We are not playing stupid with you. We have clearly, and directly responded to your as of yet, unproven claim.

You are making the claim, that the Bible has fundamentally changed. You said the word "changed". Changed does not mean, added a verse of little sigificance, that does not make any real difference to the meaning of the Bible.

"And there are three that testify on earth"

Yes, it is entirely possible that this verse was added to the Bible that was not in the original.

Do tell, what significance this has to my faith?

You said there are CHANGES to the Bible's meaning over time. If that verse, is the only real significant change in Bible.... then you have no significant change to show as evidence of your claim.

Either provide real evidence of a CHANGE in the meaning of the scriptures, or stop claiming it.

By the way, I'm not Catholic. I don't care what the pope says. Not relevant.

For some reason the things I have wrote do not register with you.

 

[Andrew77]

For some reason the things I have wrote do not register with you.

Yeah, and all of us are saying the same thing about you. Fancy that.

 

[CherubRam]

Mark 16

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Footnotes:

1. Mark 16:8 Some manuscripts have the following ending between verses 8 and 9, and one manuscript has it after verse 8 (omitting verses 9-20): Then they quickly reported all these instructions to those around Peter. After this, Jesus himself also sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

Revelation 13:13
And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.

Revelation 13:14
Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

Revelation 16:14
They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

 

[CherubRam]

Jesus: The English form "Jesus" was not seen nor spoken until AFTER the year 1525...

when Sir William Tyndale - A Protestant Reformer from Oxford, England - INVENTED IT!

Christ name in English is Yahshua.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Christians who resisted Christian Paganism were killed off.

How do you possibly establish this is the case of all Christians? What do you do with men like Augustine, Tertullian or all of the Christians who died in refusing to sacrifice incense to the gods/Caesar?

Also, your quoting from the text of the bible in some of your posts, which you have said was already corrupted by the Church. If it was corrupted by the Church to such a degree how can you trust it? Yet if you are quoting from it you obviously believe that the verses you are quoting were preserved by the evil Church.

I sense an ill formed opinion on your part.

 

[CherubRam]

How do you possibly establish this is the case of all Christians? What do you do with men like Augustine, Tertullian or all of the Christians who died in refusing to sacrifice incense to the gods/Caesar?

Also, your quoting from the text of the bible in some of your posts, which you have said was already corrupted by the Church. If it was corrupted by the Church to such a degree how can you trust it? Yet if you are quoting from it you obviously believe that the verses you are quoting were preserved by the evil Church.

I sense an ill formed opinion on your part.

Playing stupid again huh.

 

[visionary]

There is one thing that we are blessed with... no matter how mangled the scriptures are over the centuries, God can still work with it through His Holy Spirit speaking to the hearts of man.

 

[visionary]

There is one thing we are blessed with... Even if the scriptures are mangled and manipulated throughout the centuries and that is that God still works through them, via His Holy Spirit upon the hearts of man convicting them of sin and converting their souls.

 

[CherubRam]

There is one thing we are blessed with... Even if the scriptures are mangled and manipulated throughout the centuries and that is that God still works through them, via His Holy Spirit upon the hearts of man convicting them of sin and converting their souls.

True, but there seems to be a lot of Christians that just do not get it. Perhaps it is an act of God that they don't.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Playing stupid again huh.

No. Answer my questions.

 

[CherubRam]

No. Answer my questions.

I showed you a few of the scriptures in question. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. Don't waste anymore of my time, find other people who will talk with you.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I showed you a few of the scriptures in question. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. Don't waste anymore of my time, find other people who will talk with you.

You neither indicated your quotations of scriptures were a response to me nor did you engage with the historical people/circumstances I bought up. You also dismissed the bible as being corrupted. Why are these texts preserved and not others? Do you have a method greater than standard textual criticism or is it whatever you like is true, whatever goes against your understanding is false? An inconsistency you are apparently unwilling to deal with.

What evidence do you have of Christianity systematically adopting paganism? Do you mean they were influenced by the Greco Philosophical tradition? Do you reject all learning and sciences not found in the corrupted bible?

That being said, the only reason you believe Christ's Church failed on earth is because without that explanation there is no basis for your current beliefs, whatever they are (you have not disclosed what your creedal affiliation is so I have to guess). Of course to suggest Christ's Church failed to such an extent that he created the world's greatest and most influential false religion really calls into question God's plan for humanity. Why did God allow humanity to die in darkness these past 2000 years?

 

[CherubRam]

You neither indicated your quotations of scriptures were a response to me nor did you engage with the historical people/circumstances I bought up. You also dismissed the bible as being corrupted. Why are these texts preserved and not others? Do you have a method greater than standard textual criticism or is it whatever you like is true, whatever goes against your understanding is false? An inconsistency you are apparently unwilling to deal with.

What evidence do you have of Christianity systematically adopting paganism? Do you mean they were influenced by the Greco Philosophical tradition? Do you reject all learning and sciences not found in the corrupted bible?

That being said, the only reason you believe Christ's Church failed on earth is because without that explanation there is no basis for your current beliefs, whatever they are (you have not disclosed what your creedal affiliation is so I have to guess). Of course to suggest Christ's Church failed to such an extent that he created the world's greatest and most influential false religion really calls into question God's plan for humanity. Why did God allow humanity to die in darkness these past 2000 years?

If the scripture does not agree with the original Orthodox Judaism, then it is a lie. Christ is an ancient being, if he was to introduce anything new, he would have had the smarts to explain why. Logical deduction is for the wise, and following feelings is for fools.
Now stop wasting my time.