• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Things have changed over the years

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.


    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

    22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

    25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

    27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude the Father in matters of life and death.

    Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

    Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
    Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sence to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

    Luke 20:16
    "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades (Grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    Revelation 21
    1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
    6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This (That) is the second death."


    Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.
     
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    The word Catholic

    The word Whole

    Strong's Concordance
    holokléros: complete, entire
    Original Word: ὁλόκληρος, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: holokléros
    Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-ok'-lay-ros)
    Short Definition: complete in every part, sound, perfect
    Definition: complete in every part, sound, perfect, entire.
    HELPS Word-studies
    3648 holóklēros (from 3650 /hólos, "whole" and 2819 /klḗros, "a lot, cast to better discern God's preferred-will") – properly, "all that is included (apportioned) through divine lot." 3648 /holóklēros ("divinely-allotted wholeness") occurs twice in the NT.
    1 Thes 5:23: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely (3651 /holotelḗs); and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete (3648 /holóklēros), without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (NASU).
    Js 1:4: "And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete (3648 /holóklēros), lacking in nothing" (NASU).

    Translations of Catholic

    καθολικός
    adjective
    καθολικός Catholic, global, blanket
    γενικός general, generic, universal, Catholic, omnibus



    Cath•o•lic
    ˈkaTH(ə)lik/
    adjective
    adjective: Catholic
    1. 1.
    of the Roman Catholic faith.
    o of or including all Christians.
    o relating to the historic doctrine and practice of the Western Church.
    noun
    noun: Catholic; plural noun: Catholics
    1. 1.
    a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
    Origin
    late Middle English: from Old French catholique or late Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos ‘universal,’ from kata ‘with respect to’ + holos ‘whole.’


    Catha is an Etruscan Goddess of the sun. Catha is equated with the Greek sun God Helios. Other sources, however, name Usil as the Etruscan sun God, though on one mirror Usil is shown as a Goddess as well. Catha is from the Etruscan root cath-, meaning "the sun", and was also in use as a family name among the Etruscans. Both Usil and Catha are sometimes described as rising from the Sea at dawn.

    Catha is sometimes called the daughter of Usil, and associated with daybreak or sunrise; as such She may be equivalent or a sister-Goddess to Thesan. On the Liber Linteus, a fragmentary book of Etruscan ritual, which was only preserved because the linen it was written on was torn into strips and used to wrap a mummy, Catha is called Ati Catha, "Mother Catha". Ati is a title used of a few other Etruscan Goddesses such as Cels, the earth Goddess, and Turan, the Goddess of love. It may show especial honor or indicate that She was held in high regard among the other Goddesses.


    The word Cath•o•lic by its division has no real relationship to the word holos. The a at the end of Catha is a Greek designation for a female name.
     
  3. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    Red Sea or Sea of Reeds


    If the Israelite's had crossed the Red Sea, it would have taken about a week.


    Yam Suph means "Sea of Reeds", (suph by itself means “reed.”This was pointed out as early as the 11th century, by Rashi. This could refer to a large lake close to the Red Sea, which has since dried up due to the Suez Canal. To complicate matters more, the New Testament follows the LXX in referring to the location of the Exodus sea crossing as the “Red Sea.”


    The “Red Sea” phrase came into the account with the third century BC translation of the Old Testament into Greek. Called the Septuagint (abbreviated as LXX), its translators made yam suph (“Sea of Reeds”) into eruthrá thálassē (“Red Sea”). The Latin Vulgate also followed their lead with mari Rubro (“Red Sea,”) and most English versions continued in that tradition.


    Exodus 10:19
    And the Lord changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Exodus 13:18
    So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea. The Israelites went up out of Egypt ready for battle.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Exodus 15:4
    Pharaoh’s chariots and his army he has hurled into the sea. The best of Pharaoh’s officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Exodus 15:22
    [ The Waters of Marah and Elim ] Then Moses led Israel from the Red Sea and they went into the Desert of Shur. For three days they traveled in the desert without finding water.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Exodus 23:31
    “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Numbers 14:25
    Since the Amalekites and the Canaanites are living in the valleys, turn back tomorrow and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.”

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Numbers 21:4
    [ The Bronze Snake ] They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way;

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Numbers 33:10
    They left Elim and camped by the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Numbers 33:11
    They left the Red Sea and camped in the Desert of Sin.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Deuteronomy 1:40
    But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.”

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Deuteronomy 2:1
    [ Wanderings in the Wilderness ] Then we turned back and set out toward the wilderness along the route to the Red Sea, as the Lord had directed me. For a long time we made our way around the hill country of Seir.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Deuteronomy 11:4
    what he did to the Egyptian army, to its horses and chariots, how he overwhelmed them with the waters of the Red Sea as they were pursuing you, and how the Lord brought lasting ruin on them.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  4. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    Joshua 2:10
    We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Joshua 4:23
    For the Lord your God dried up the Jordan before you until you had crossed over. The Lord your God did to the Jordan what he had done to the Red Sea when he dried it up before us until we had crossed over.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Joshua 24:6
    When I brought your people out of Egypt, you came to the sea, and the Egyptians pursued them with chariots and horsemen as far as the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Judges 11:16
    But when they came up out of Egypt, Israel went through the wilderness to the Red Sea and on to Kadesh.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Kings 9:26
    King Solomon also built ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath in Edom, on the shore of the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Nehemiah 9:9
    “You saw the suffering of our ancestors in Egypt; you heard their cry at the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Psalm 106:7
    When our ancestors were in Egypt, they gave no thought to your miracles; they did not remember your many kindnesses, and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Psalm 106:9
    He rebuked the Red Sea, and it dried up; he led them through the depths as through a desert.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Psalm 106:22
    miracles in the land of Ham and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Psalm 136:13
    to him who divided the Red Sea asunder His love endures forever.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Psalm 136:15
    but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 49:21
    At the sound of their fall the earth will tremble; their cry will resound to the Red Sea.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Acts 7:36
    He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Hebrews 11:29
    By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    Red Sea or Sea of Reeds

    Jewish bibles have it as Sea of Reeds.
     
  6. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

    +2,574
    Messianic
    Single
    Either way, there was a great miracle.

    Yahweh parted the sea to allow Israel to pass.
    OR
    Yahweh drowned Pharaoh and 600 chariots in shallow mud.
     
  7. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

    +4,321
    United States
    Seeker
    Celibate
    But Catha the goddess is of no relationship to the Catholic Church, which got its name in the first century meaning whole, universal, as you greek translations accurately showed.
     
  8. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    On the "WHOLE" it was sun worship that was basically believed. At that time Christianity was a small minority. Catha is from the Etruscan root cath-, meaning "the sun", and was also in use as a family name among the Etruscans in Italy. Cath is where we get the word catheter and cathode ray. In the past and even these days Mary is worshiped as a sun goddess, and that is the reason for the halo and sun rays around her.

    In the book of Acts, "ekklesia kath holos," which is translated "the Church throughout all," and from this we derive the word "katholos."

    Quote: Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ' ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχεν εἰρήνην, οἰκοδομουμένη καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνετο.

    (Acts 9, 31)

    The prepositional phrase "throughout all" (kath oles) appears in Luke 4:14; Luke 23:5; Acts 9:31; Acts 9:42; Acts 10:37.

    KATH'OLES
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    The word Cath•o•lic by its division has no real relationship to the word holos. The a at the end of Catha is a Greek designation for a female name.
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    Only recently has the Sea of Reeds became muddy.
     
  11. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

    +1,258
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Except that we see the word Catholic used by early Christians to denote the Church like Ignatius of Antioch. Your attributing malicious backgrounds to words on the basis of flimsy connections is not evidence that the word Catholic denotes sun worship anymore than the use of the Greek word Theos in application to God almighty in the New Testament is evidence that Zeus and YHWH are one in the same.

    Also, still waiting for a response to my initial questions. It seems to you are merely content to post walls of text and not actually discuss with anyone the specific charges you are making against others. In your own words, you are wasting time, specifically yours.
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    The word is not Cat/holo/licus, it is Cath/o/licus. Cath was the sun goddess in Italy. And yes, the word Theo is the correct translation for the word "Divine." The word "God" is a recent invention. I do not like talking to you because you twist everything I say into a lie. For example, I never said Yahwah and Zeus are one and the same.

    You are a habitual liar, and that is why I do not like to speak to you.
     
  13. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

    +1,258
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Never said you did say YWHW AND Zeus were the same but why not on your logic? Both were called Father. Both were called Theos. Your sole reason for considering Roman Catholicism the worship of a Goddess is a flimsy etymological connection to an Etruscan deity to explain the origins for the term Catholic. Considering that we first see references to the term applied to the Church in the Greek speaking world how does such a connection hold any water? Did the Greeks derive it from this Italian Goddess?

    Stop being evasive and cowardly. Actually discuss.
     
  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
  15. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

    +4,321
    United States
    Seeker
    Celibate
    I don't want to see the forum become a war zone. We should not be having attacks on various Christian churches in here. Although MJ's who are part of regular churches don't preach their churches specific doctrines, MJ also has no animosity towards the churches. Picking on any of the Christian churches just brings unnecessary divisiveness into the forum. As much as the posts above pain me, I'm not going to reply for the good of the forum. If an MJ wants to debate a specific church or its theology, there are great forums for that.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  16. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

    +2,574
    Messianic
    Single
    But it has never been deep or wide though.
    I doubt 600 chariots could fit in it running
    even five to ten abreast. And the children
    of Israel would have found it a small obstacle
    to get over, using boats or just fording it.
     
  17. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    It is thought that Tanis Lake may have been the Sea of Reeds. At one point Tanis lake is about three miles across.
    It is believed that a 63 miles an hour, lasting for 12 hours, could have pushed back waters estimated to be six-feet deep.
     
  18. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    With the exception of you, most people come here to learn. If you see any errors in the statements, be sure to point them out. I post different subjects here at MJ because I am prevented from posting them elsewhere.
     
  19. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

    +4,321
    United States
    Seeker
    Celibate
    Your statement are FULL of errors. However, if I tangle with you over it, it will turn into a war, which the forum doesn't need. Also, you will inevitably bring doctrine into it, and I cannot reply to your false doctrine statements because the SOP prohibits me from teaching my church's doctrine, even if I'm a Messianic Jew.

    This is why if you want to go on an anti-Catholic tirade, there are simply better places for it than here, IMHO.
     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +742
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    Here is a simple question: Are the quotes about Mary from the Popes correct or false?
    About Mary
     
Loading...