Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[Fisherking]

You remind us that Jesus mentions “the days of Noah” in the Olivet discourse. At the time of Noah, some were taken and some were left.

No, God protected 8 people only, he killed off the rest of the world, many whose DNA had been tainted by demons. Also, some people say, but demons do not procreate, but this hit me in the last month or so, maybe they had "the ability" but no female types were ever created in heaven. I think that is the case tbh.

What happened to those who were taken? They drowned, they died. Noah and his family were left, the equivalent of “left behind.” “Taken” and “left” mean exactly the opposite of what Dispensationalists think they mean. This fits perfectly with what I said about “taken” and “left” in #82.

You have to try to stretch this far and wide to fit, the fact that the 2nd coming is a KNOWN ENTITY you and others can not escape my friend. One is taken and one is left is not referring unto the world but unto the Church, and it matches the 50% ratio given by Jesus, only 5 of the 10 virgin brides will be taken to the wedding, the other 5 are locked out.

It looks like you are saying that because Jesus mentions the fig tree after the clear mention of the Second Coming in Matthew 24:30-31 and before “day and hour” in verse 36, the flow is broken. You are trying to tell us that Jesus has changed the subject between verses 30-31 and verse 36. This isn’t true at all. I do not agree that the parable of the fig tree takes four verses, it is only mentioned in one verse. The actual sequence:

It doesn't matter what you agree with or not, you can't add verses to the parable brother. Remember, there were no verses nor chapters, these were all added by the English translators. So, the passages have to be kept intact. I think verses 36-51 could go with Matt. 25, but one thing is certain, it does not go with the parable of the fig tree.

The whole Day nor Hour is pointing to the Feast of Trumps. the Feasts always came ion New Moons and the New Moon Phase was an unknown, only God knew, that is why these were called Moed's or Appointed Times. Do you understand the 7 Feasts were God showing Israel the whole History of the earth before they ever happened and that only the Messiah (Jesus) could fulfill them? And that he has fulfilled the three Spring Feasts already, he us fulfilling the Summer Harvest (Feast of Weeks) now and that he starts fulfilling the Fall Feasts by Rapturing the Church (which ends the Summer Harvest/Church Age Harvest of souls) and kicking off the 70th week which must see Israel repent? And what comes after the Feast of Trumps? The Feast of ATONEMENT (get it? Its an obvious pattern). Finally comes the Feast of Tabernacles, which means to DWELL with God and what does the Kingdom Age see? Jesus ruling from Jerusalem, DWELLING with Israel, for 1000 years.


Jesus Fulfills the Three Spring Feasts

1.) Passover (His blood covers our sins)
2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus was WITHOUT SIN or Unleavened from sin)
3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave, he overcame death, amen)

The Summer Feast was the only feast all alone on the calendar (Think Gentile Church Age Period)

4.) Feast of weeks ( We the church are helping Jesus fulfill this by harvesting souls, Jesus is the head we are the body, he is our high priest sitting at the right hand of God. This is The Harvest Season as we speak. Jesus will end the harvest season at the Feast of Trumps, think LAST TRUMP)

Fall Feasts soon to be fulfilled by God

5.) Feast of Trumps ( This always ended the harvest season, the whole NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR HOUR is simply Jesus telling us he will return at an APPOINTED TIME BY God, one fall year, at the Feast of Trumps, just like he died on Passover !!! Its a CLUE you guys are missing. The Feasts all fell on New Moons, which were appointed moeds or LUNAR CYCLES. So, in reality you are being given the understanding that Jesus will end the Summer Harvest on the Feast of Trumps, when Israel saw the New Moon they commenced to blowing the Shofar, in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the 100th or LAST TRUMP, the Harvest Season was officially ended (THINK Church Age ends, THINK, Pre Trib. Rapture, THINK the Harvesting of Souls by Jesus' Church has ended). Then the 70th week begins, its Israel's time to repent as a nation now.)

6.) Feast of Atonement (SEE the pattern yet? God gives us deep things, we sometimes fall to dig them out. The bible clearly shows Israel repenting at the very end. Zech. 13:8-9 sees Israel repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 and we are told in Malachi 4:5-6 that Elijah will return BEFORE the DOTL to turn Israel back unto God. So, its very, very clear, Israel will ATONE during this 70th week.)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (Explained above, God will Dwell with Israel, Jesus is God the Redeemer)

 

[Fisherking]

Fisherking, you are claiming that all of the “thief in the night” verses refer to the “rapture,” but cannot refer to the Second Coming. You believe that the time period between the “rapture” and the Second Coming is known, so the timing of the latter won’t be a secret.

Of course its known, the 70th week is 7 years, the Agreement (Covenant) in Dan 9:27 is for 7 years, the Beast goes forth at the 1260 middle of "THE WEEK" conquering and rules for a Times, time and 1/2 or 1260 days or 42 months. What ends they rule of terror? Jesus shows up at the 2nd coming, 1260 days after he goes forth conquering, as a matter of fact, all three numbers in Daniel 12 are the SPECIFC NUMBERS NAMED, until all these wonders (Dan. 11:36-45) ends, and vs. 8 confirms this also, Daniels asks in a slightly different manner than the Angel in vs. 6, WHEN WILL ALL THESE THINGS END? So, when he gets the 1290 and 1335, they therefore precede the 1260 by 30 days (1290) and 75 days (1335) because the 2nd coming which ends all these wonders/things is Jesus showing up to end those wonders/things.

1335 = Two-witnesses
1290 = AoD False Prophet, nit the AC/Beast who can only come forth 30 days later.
1260 = The AC becoming the Beast by Conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

The 2n d Coming is the fulcrum point, not the middle of the week. God set this all up where even a pre high school person bad at math could add it all up brother. We just have to quit clinging to old bad info.

L.S. Chafer, a Dispensationalist, and founder of the Dallas Theological Seminary, believed that the thief verses referred to the Second Coming and the end of the world. This puts you in disagreement with leading Dispensationalists, as well as those who reject Dispensationalism.

I do not not care about these things, I guess you disagree with people in "WHATEVER GROUP" you belong too, pssttt I do not accept tags, do not even study what they mean, its a waste of time imho, so when you throw out these terms as do others, I understand what you guys think and why it may or may not be in error, but the tags are meaningless to me, I see them as Satan trying to divide the church, God's truths are obvious, tags were invented to try and confuse and confound these deeper truths imho, where people will spend endless time debating these philosophical tags instead of God's truths that should be obvious.

Also, God doesn't enlighten all people at the same time, He may indeed enlighten brother Tommy Ice on the 2 Thess. 2 passage being the Departure and me in how Dan. 8:9 MANDATES that the AC can only be born in Greece, or on the 1260, 1290 and 1335 numbers and what they really mean, or on how the False Prophet has to be an end time Jewish High Priest like unto Jason (real name Yeshua) who threw in with Antiochus Epiphanes and welcomed him into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, then mandated that all Jews become Hellenized leading unto the Maccabean Revolt.

So, everyone does not come to the full truth all at once, we are one body who are enlightened together as one, but in many a varied ways. The thief as used in Revv. 16 (6th Vial) is God mocking those who ignored his warning as they gather to battle. He is saying, I told you long ago this day would come, just as I warned those on Noah's time the RAINS would come, but when the rains first came for many days it did not flood right? Then after a week, then 2 weeks of rain no doubt the flooding started, the flood does not come when the rain first comes. The thief came when Jesus raptured the church, judgment was already upon them, Jesus says once the wedding doors are locked there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but that only comes 3.5 years later via the DOTL and finishes 7 years later at the Armageddon Marriage Feast. Once the 70th week starts., the wedding door is locked tight, the earths fate is upon them, they will either die martyrs, or by God's wrath, or endure by hiding and not being stupid enough to go to Armageddon to fight God. Then they will be under Jesus rule of an Iron Rod.

Quote
<< And, finally, the whole order is temporal and passing: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (II Pet. 3:10). "And the world (_Satanic system_) passeth away and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever" (I Jno. 2:17).>>

Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one . Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition.

This quote is at the end of
Chapter IV - This Age and the Satanic System, in Satan, L.S. Chafter.

I will explain many people misconception here, which may not even be your overall point, but I might add in, WE are the one living at the very end brother, we should be the ones receiving the latter rains and seeing dreams (old men) and visions (young men) and those who gain the END TIME KNOWLEDGE God spoke about unto Daniel in Dann. 12. So, why are you looking backwards? I mean I loved the brother Hal Lindsey who wrote the "Late Great Planet Earth" but he had no wat of seeing what we can now see through computers, history, etc. etc.

The DOTL is not one day, its not even 1260 days according to how Peter shows above, its the ONE DAY that God's Wrath starts on and his Wrath lasts for 1260 days, but the DOTL also includes Jesus 1000 year reign on earth, so the DOTL lasts for 3.5 years PLUS 1000 years. Then this whole universe is set ablaze, psstt, my hunch is this whole universe will be HELL.........Its set up in a TIME TRAP that can not be escaped, meanwhile, the new HEAVENS & NEW EARTH will be set up in an eternal state of being.

 

[Dale]

Satan is battling daily, the reason for Matt. 24 is not as most seeming think, Jesus had to teach the disciples what was coming, because if they made an error the church could have been wiped out, the holy spirit has to act through us the church. So, when you see people who think Matt. 24:4-14 matches the Seals, just know they do not understand it one whit. Verses 7-8 are throw away verses, meaning they do not really pertain to the overall thrust of the passage, which is Jesus teaching his disciples how to survive the church age long enough to plant the church, and that each save John was going to be killed, so they needed to know that, so they would be prepared.

Verses 4-6 is only about 70 AD, Jesus is telling the ahead of time that 70 AD is not his 2nd coming, thus the end is not yet but later on, there will b false christs meant the Pharisees etc. put forth messianic figure types, whom they thought would lead an uprising and victory over the Fourth Beast who the rightly saw as Rome. So, if the disciples had rushed back to Jerusalem at that time, in 70 AD no doubt the Churches would have followed them and would have all been killed, and the early church wiped out.

So, verses 7-8 is only showing the disciples why 70 AD can not be "THE END" or 70th week. First there must be a crescendo of events like earthquakes, famine, plagues (black plague/COVID 19), and last but not least, kingdom must rise against kingdom and nation (ethos) vs. nation, or races vs. other races. Well, there was never going to be any kingdom arising whilst Rome was in control, so that in itself proved to the disciples this could not be in their lifetimes as did vs. 14. So, these 2 verses were only inserted to prove vs. 6, the end is not yet but later on, so do not come rushing back to Jerusalem when you hear of the Christ/Messiah showing up and Israel fighting Rome [or else the church would have been wiped out].

Now, the passage reverts to the disciples lives, they were told that false prophets would arise and seek to have them killed, these are not Christian types as people assume, but the Zeus & Jupiter types who cried to Rome that their patrons were all converting to Christianity, this started the persecution, and all the disciples were murdered save John. Jesus then warns them that the must be faithful until THE END [OF THEIR LIVES] its not about the end times as many assume. Lastly, vs, 14 tells the disciples what brings THE END or 70th week, which vs. 6 says will come later on.

The Gospel must be preached unto the whole world, and only then will THE END COME (Pre Trib. Rapture of the Church which brings the 70th week). The disciples now knew 100 percent (Jesus' goal) that the 70 AD events could not be the 2nd coming, because they knew they would never have enough time to reach places like India, China and the Scythians (modern day Russia) with the Gospel, so Jesus gave his disciples a 100 percent fool proof understanding of 70 AD and what not to do, he did all that to save the church from being wiped out.

Why did Michael have to resist and fight demons for 21 days in Daniel 10 ? We are humans with free will, yes the holy spirt can move on humans, but so can Satan. If God could just have His perfect will done all humans would be saved, don't kid yourself that there isn't a spiritual battle going on sister.

Of course Satan used the wickedness of men in the RCC and Church of England to misled the masses as best he could, of course, and he used them to torture people into lining up with what they believed or else.

Fisherking: “Verses 7-8 are throw away verses, meaning they do not really pertain to the overall thrust of the passage …”

Matthew 24:7-8 are “throw away verses”? You show an alarming lack of respect for the scripture.

 

[Dale]

Of course its known, the 70th week is 7 years, the Agreement (Covenant) in Dan 9:27 is for 7 years, the Beast goes forth at the 1260 middle of "THE WEEK" conquering and rules for a Times, time and 1/2 or 1260 days or 42 months. What ends they rule of terror? Jesus shows up at the 2nd coming, 1260 days after he goes forth conquering, as a matter of fact, all three numbers in Daniel 12 are the SPECIFC NUMBERS NAMED, until all these wonders (Dan. 11:36-45) ends, and vs. 8 confirms this also, Daniels asks in a slightly different manner than the Angel in vs. 6, WHEN WILL ALL THESE THINGS END? So, when he gets the 1290 and 1335, they therefore precede the 1260 by 30 days (1290) and 75 days (1335) because the 2nd coming which ends all these wonders/things is Jesus showing up to end those wonders/things.

1335 = Two-witnesses
1290 = AoD False Prophet, nit the AC/Beast who can only come forth 30 days later.
1260 = The AC becoming the Beast by Conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

The 2n d Coming is the fulcrum point, not the middle of the week. God set this all up where even a pre high school person bad at math could add it all up brother. We just have to quit clinging to old bad info.


I do not not care about these things, I guess you disagree with people in "WHATEVER GROUP" you belong too, pssttt I do not accept tags, do not even study what they mean, its a waste of time imho, so when you throw out these terms as do others, I understand what you guys think and why it may or may not be in error, but the tags are meaningless to me, I see them as Satan trying to divide the church, God's truths are obvious, tags were invented to try and confuse and confound these deeper truths imho, where people will spend endless time debating these philosophical tags instead of God's truths that should be obvious.

Also, God doesn't enlighten all people at the same time, He may indeed enlighten brother Tommy Ice on the 2 Thess. 2 passage being the Departure and me in how Dan. 8:9 MANDATES that the AC can only be born in Greece, or on the 1260, 1290 and 1335 numbers and what they really mean, or on how the False Prophet has to be an end time Jewish High Priest like unto Jason (real name Yeshua) who threw in with Antiochus Epiphanes and welcomed him into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, then mandated that all Jews become Hellenized leading unto the Maccabean Revolt.

So, everyone does not come to the full truth all at once, we are one body who are enlightened together as one, but in many a varied ways. The thief as used in Revv. 16 (6th Vial) is God mocking those who ignored his warning as they gather to battle. He is saying, I told you long ago this day would come, just as I warned those on Noah's time the RAINS would come, but when the rains first came for many days it did not flood right? Then after a week, then 2 weeks of rain no doubt the flooding started, the flood does not come when the rain first comes. The thief came when Jesus raptured the church, judgment was already upon them, Jesus says once the wedding doors are locked there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but that only comes 3.5 years later via the DOTL and finishes 7 years later at the Armageddon Marriage Feast. Once the 70th week starts., the wedding door is locked tight, the earths fate is upon them, they will either die martyrs, or by God's wrath, or endure by hiding and not being stupid enough to go to Armageddon to fight God. Then they will be under Jesus rule of an Iron Rod.


I will explain many people misconception here, which may not even be your overall point, but I might add in, WE are the one living at the very end brother, we should be the ones receiving the latter rains and seeing dreams (old men) and visions (young men) and those who gain the END TIME KNOWLEDGE God spoke about unto Daniel in Dann. 12. So, why are you looking backwards? I mean I loved the brother Hal Lindsey who wrote the "Late Great Planet Earth" but he had no wat of seeing what we can now see through computers, history, etc. etc.

The DOTL is not one day, its not even 1260 days according to how Peter shows above, its the ONE DAY that God's Wrath starts on and his Wrath lasts for 1260 days, but the DOTL also includes Jesus 1000 year reign on earth, so the DOTL lasts for 3.5 years PLUS 1000 years. Then this whole universe is set ablaze, psstt, my hunch is this whole universe will be HELL.........Its set up in a TIME TRAP that can not be escaped, meanwhile, the new HEAVENS & NEW EARTH will be set up in an eternal state of being.

Fisherking, you rejected my quote from the respected and influential Dispensationalist L. S. Chafer out of hand. Several times you have mentioned that you admire the Dispensationalist Thomas Ice, who received a Master’s degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. It so happens that Chafer founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. If Chafer’s views are worthless, does this mean that the education of Thomas Ice is also worthless?

“Ice received his BA from Howard Payne University in 1975, his masters in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1981, and a PhD from Tyndale Theological Seminary in 1995.[1] He performed post-doctoral studies in church history at the University of Wales.”

Thomas Ice - Wikipedia

 

[Valletta]

Of course Satan used the wickedness of men in the RCC and Church of England to misled the masses as best he could, of course, and he used them to torture people into lining up with what they believed or else.

Satan uses the wickedness of men in all religions, including your own.

 

[Fisherking]

Fisherking: “Verses 7-8 are throw away verses, meaning they do not really pertain to the overall thrust of the passage …”

Matthew 24:7-8 are “throw away verses”? You show an alarming lack of respect for the scripture.

So, you do not debate the post at all, which shows why they are such.

So, the point being made is it was not a part of the overall thrust of Jesus' message in the passage, he was not talkin about the END TIMES per se in verses 4-13, in 14 he was, but the Disciples asked him three questions, when will these things happen (Temples Destruction) AND what shall be the Sign of your coming AND the end of the world [as we know it]. (They wanted to know when the Temple would be destroyed, what was the sign of Jesus' coming and when the new Kingdom Age would start. SEE BELOW)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Why is this important? Many people see verse 7-8 as the Seal Judgments (there are no Seal Judgments anyway. but that's a whole 'nother segment, only the 7 Trumps are God's Wrath) or 70th week Judgments, but it is not nor cam it ever be, the "baby being birthed is the 70th week".

So, lets give verses 4-13 a Header or Title.

The Disciples Guide, from Jesus on how to make sure the Church Survives the First Century AD.

Since the above headline/header is the objective of Jesus, and not the things which must come later on, leading us up unto the 70th week with a crescendo of events, then Jesus only verses 7-8 to make a point about vs. 6 (guess what, he did the exact same thing with vs. 14 showing them what BRINGS THE END or 70th week). So, in the midst of Jesus showing them FIRSTLY about the temple and the 70 AD events to come, Jesus has to get his point across, YOU ARE NOT TO GO TO Jerusalem in 70 AD under no circumstances, the FAKE CHRIST will not be me, if you go there to fight for "me" the Roman's will kill you all and send you off into slavery (diaspora). The other two questions gets answered in verses 15-31, and in verses 36-51 via the rapture, but mostly in verses 15-31 because this was unto Israel as nation, then the church later on gets its plight revealed because some Jews will be a part of the bride of Christ.

It is honestly sad you chose to dwell on the term throw away verses and not the overall juxtaposition that was made. The throw away of course meant is was not germane to the overall point Jesus was making, it was OFF SUBJECT. Its like you or I writing a letter or a post and putting something in parenthesis. I guess I have to make it visual so you can grasp this point.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(don't go rushing back to Jerusalem thinking I am come again in 70 AD). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many(which is WHY hes telling them this). 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Now in verses 7 & 8 Jesus BREAKS AWAY from his overall point to EMPHASISE why the END IS NOT YET.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Its like two PARENTHESIS VERSES, Jesus s making sure the understand the end or 70th week is way, way, way on down the line, so THEY WILL NOT RETURN to Jerusalem when the temple gets destroyed in 70 AD nor when the RUMOR OF WARS are happening in like 66-70 AD. So, Jesus chooses to give them a demonstration of why the end can not be in the 70 AD years, but verses 7-8 have nothing to do with Jesus' overall teaching to the Disciples in verses 4-13 and you know why? Because verses 7-8 is not about the Disciples lifetimes.

Now it goes RIGHT BACK to Jesus talking about the Disciples LIFETIMES, not about the 70th week events as many wrongly assume below. Tat means verses 7-8 are PARENTETICAL, not Germane to the teaching per se, just as vs. 14 will not involve the Disciples lifetimes either.

9 Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many(The false prophets of Jupiter & Zeus etc. etc. cried unto Rome and then they started killing Christians)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Jesus was pre warning THE DISCIPLES the will all be killed, he's saying do not be another Judas. Since they all KNEW they were going to be killed, they were ready and wore it like a badge of honor, save John of course)

Now below we jump the the Pre Trib. Rapture in vs. 14 followed by the AoD mid week events in vs. 15

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

BELOW IS THE END...........

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

In vs. 14 Jesus shows WHY the 70 AD evets can not be THE END (70th week events) because ALL THE WORLD has to receive the Gospel before THE END can come. The Disciples knew they would never take the Gospel unto China, India nor Russia (Scythians) in their lifetimes, if they did not know that when Jesus spoke, they knew it by the time 70 AD came around.

Up above, in Parenthesis I placed 70th week events and Scythians, both are basically throw away points anyone which only add in info not really germane, of course THE END is the 70th week, of course the Scythians became the Russians. So, why use them? Because some people will nit understand this so I add in to clarify, but its not germane in reality, and verses 7-8 is not germane to Jesus teaching about the 70 AD events and the Disciples being killed either. Its about why the 70 AD events can not be THE END, then in vs. 14 Jesus gives the Disciples a FOOL PROOF UNDERSTANDING of what brings THE END (70th week)

I see over and over people, big time preachers, who really believe Matt. 24:4-13-14 are about the Tribulation period and how it matches the Seals/Judgments, but it has nothing to do with the 70th week judgments AT ALL, that is WHY I want to point out Jesus only used verses 7-8 to show why TGE END IS NOT YET. The chapter in verses 4-13 were NOT ABOUT THE END..........it was about the Disciples lives.

 

[Fisherking]

Fisherking, you rejected my quote from the respected and influential Dispensationalist L. S. Chafer out of hand. Several times you have mentioned that you admire the Dispensationalist Thomas Ice, who received a Master’s degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. It so happens that Chafer founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. If Chafer’s views are worthless, does this mean that the education of Thomas Ice is also worthless?

“Ice received his BA from Howard Payne University in 1975, his masters in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1981, and a PhD from Tyndale Theological Seminary in 1995.[1] He performed post-doctoral studies in church history at the University of Wales.”

I do nit dismiss him anymore than I dismiss Hal Lindsey, we just have the END TIME INFO, and are in the perfect time to be told God's Deep Secrets, as Daniel 12 says. I do not know the guy, the point is God is alive today and telling us His deep secrets, the holy spirit doesn't have to rely on men, he reveals the deeper truths at the very end. They dd nit live in the very end. That would be like me listening to world population stats from 100 years ago, they are not relevant or germane to today since we now have 8-9 billion people on planet earth.

 

[Fisherking]

Satan uses the wickedness of men in all religions, including your own.

SMH....nothing to add I see.

 

[FireDragon76]

Few serious theologians or Bible scholars take premillenialist dispensationalism seriously anymore.

The Olivet Discourse in Matthew and Luke don't suggest a rapture. "As in the days of Noah" does not refer to the godly being removned from the earth, but the wicked.

I am an Idealist, which means I interpret the Apocalypse as a religious allegory. The Kingdom of God is always taken by force (Matt 11:12), which means there has always been a struggle, going back to the Hebrew prophets, who were generally martyred at the hands of evil kings and corrupt religious institutions. It doesn't point specifically to an earthly battle. In fact, I don't interpret Jesus as being a person that advocates violence, and I think much of the Rapture doctrine comes from a serious misunderstanding of Jesus' character and mission. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world and will never be after the kind of this world.

 

[Clare73]

Few serious theologians or Bible scholars take premillenialist dispensationalism seriously anymore.

The Olivet Discourse in Matthew and Luke don't suggest a rapture.

Which does not negate the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) regarding the catching up (harpazo) of the saints to meet the Lord in the air at the second coming.

 

[Fisherking]

Few serious theologians or Bible scholars take premillenialist dispensationalism seriously anymore.

Luckily, just like in Jesus' time, we do not need to worry about what theological men like the Pharisees think, those are the same types that say Jesus had a wife etc. etc. Jesus will indeed rule for 1000 years, the Sabbath Millennium vs. Satan's 6000 year reign.

It was designed like that by God for a reason, all the world is indeed a stage. Satan must be found guilty, and when his 6000 year reign is compared to Jesus' 1000 year reign that will be what condemns him to everlasting separation from God, and that separation (Hell) is this universe set ablaze, and its a TIME WARP nothing can escape from.

I am an Idealist, which means I interpret the Apocalypse as a religious allegory.

The Book of Revelation (BoR) is 100% fact, its just ENCODED FACTS. I explain the whole BoR on one post. Some people, you seemingly fall in that category, who can not understand the BoR like to reason it away as an allegory, but nothing could be further from the truth.

The Kingdom of God is always taken by force (Matt 11:12), which means there has always been a struggle, going back to the Hebrew prophets, who were generally martyred at the hands of evil kings and corrupt religious institutions. It doesn't point specifically to an earthly battle. In fact, I don't interpret Jesus as being a person that advocates violence, and I think much of the Rapture doctrine comes from a serious misunderstanding of Jesus' character and mission. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world and will never be after the kind of this world.

There is no misunderstanding, just those of us who understand (like the Book of Revelation) and those who do not understand.

 

[Dale]

I do nit dismiss him anymore than I dismiss Hal Lindsey, we just have the END TIME INFO, and are in the perfect time to be told God's Deep Secrets, as Daniel 12 says. I do not know the guy, the point is God is alive today and telling us His deep secrets, the holy spirit doesn't have to rely on men, he reveals the deeper truths at the very end. They dd nit live in the very end. That would be like me listening to world population stats from 100 years ago, they are not relevant or germane to today since we now have 8-9 billion people on planet earth.

I mention L.S. Chafer, one of the most influential Dispensationalists of the 20th Century and you say you “don’t know the guy.” Really? When I mention Augustine, many Protestants say, “I don’t care what he thinks!” Yet the theology they were taught, and believe, largely goes back to Augustine, whether they know it or not.

While we are talking about the Olivet discourse, here is one of the crucial verses:

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 34:31 NIV

Fisherking, I take it that you assume that the angels collect Christians and take them to heaven. Notice that the verse doesn’t say where they are being taken. If the whole passage is about the Second Coming, then Jesus has returned to the Mount of Olives. Why would angels take the followers of Jesus to heaven if He has returned bodily to the Mount of Olives? Maybe angels take Christians to where Jesus is. Revelation says there will be a Millenium before the Final Judgment. Perhaps Jesus will summon His followers, tell them what He wants them to do, and return them to where they were.

 

[Dale]

So, you do not debate the post at all, which shows why they are such.

So, the point being made is it was not a part of the overall thrust of Jesus' message in the passage, he was not talkin about the END TIMES per se in verses 4-13, in 14 he was, but the Disciples asked him three questions, when will these things happen (Temples Destruction) AND what shall be the Sign of your coming AND the end of the world [as we know it]. (They wanted to know when the Temple would be destroyed, what was the sign of Jesus' coming and when the new Kingdom Age would start. SEE BELOW)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Why is this important? Many people see verse 7-8 as the Seal Judgments (there are no Seal Judgments anyway. but that's a whole 'nother segment, only the 7 Trumps are God's Wrath) or 70th week Judgments, but it is not nor cam it ever be, the "baby being birthed is the 70th week".

So, lets give verses 4-13 a Header or Title.

The Disciples Guide, from Jesus on how to make sure the Church Survives the First Century AD.

Since the above headline/header is the objective of Jesus, and not the things which must come later on, leading us up unto the 70th week with a crescendo of events, then Jesus only verses 7-8 to make a point about vs. 6 (guess what, he did the exact same thing with vs. 14 showing them what BRINGS THE END or 70th week). So, in the midst of Jesus showing them FIRSTLY about the temple and the 70 AD events to come, Jesus has to get his point across, YOU ARE NOT TO GO TO Jerusalem in 70 AD under no circumstances, the FAKE CHRIST will not be me, if you go there to fight for "me" the Roman's will kill you all and send you off into slavery (diaspora). The other two questions gets answered in verses 15-31, and in verses 36-51 via the rapture, but mostly in verses 15-31 because this was unto Israel as nation, then the church later on gets its plight revealed because some Jews will be a part of the bride of Christ.

It is honestly sad you chose to dwell on the term throw away verses and not the overall juxtaposition that was made. The throw away of course meant is was not germane to the overall point Jesus was making, it was OFF SUBJECT. Its like you or I writing a letter or a post and putting something in parenthesis. I guess I have to make it visual so you can grasp this point.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(don't go rushing back to Jerusalem thinking I am come again in 70 AD). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many(which is WHY hes telling them this). 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Now in verses 7 & 8 Jesus BREAKS AWAY from his overall point to EMPHASISE why the END IS NOT YET.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Its like two PARENTHESIS VERSES, Jesus s making sure the understand the end or 70th week is way, way, way on down the line, so THEY WILL NOT RETURN to Jerusalem when the temple gets destroyed in 70 AD nor when the RUMOR OF WARS are happening in like 66-70 AD. So, Jesus chooses to give them a demonstration of why the end can not be in the 70 AD years, but verses 7-8 have nothing to do with Jesus' overall teaching to the Disciples in verses 4-13 and you know why? Because verses 7-8 is not about the Disciples lifetimes.

Now it goes RIGHT BACK to Jesus talking about the Disciples LIFETIMES, not about the 70th week events as many wrongly assume below. Tat means verses 7-8 are PARENTETICAL, not Germane to the teaching per se, just as vs. 14 will not involve the Disciples lifetimes either.

9 Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many(The false prophets of Jupiter & Zeus etc. etc. cried unto Rome and then they started killing Christians)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Jesus was pre warning THE DISCIPLES the will all be killed, he's saying do not be another Judas. Since they all KNEW they were going to be killed, they were ready and wore it like a badge of honor, save John of course)

Now below we jump the the Pre Trib. Rapture in vs. 14 followed by the AoD mid week events in vs. 15

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

BELOW IS THE END...........

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

In vs. 14 Jesus shows WHY the 70 AD evets can not be THE END (70th week events) because ALL THE WORLD has to receive the Gospel before THE END can come. The Disciples knew they would never take the Gospel unto China, India nor Russia (Scythians) in their lifetimes, if they did not know that when Jesus spoke, they knew it by the time 70 AD came around.

Up above, in Parenthesis I placed 70th week events and Scythians, both are basically throw away points anyone which only add in info not really germane, of course THE END is the 70th week, of course the Scythians became the Russians. So, why use them? Because some people will nit understand this so I add in to clarify, but its not germane in reality, and verses 7-8 is not germane to Jesus teaching about the 70 AD events and the Disciples being killed either. Its about why the 70 AD events can not be THE END, then in vs. 14 Jesus gives the Disciples a FOOL PROOF UNDERSTANDING of what brings THE END (70th week)

I see over and over people, big time preachers, who really believe Matt. 24:4-13-14 are about the Tribulation period and how it matches the Seals/Judgments, but it has nothing to do with the 70th week judgments AT ALL, that is WHY I want to point out Jesus only used verses 7-8 to show why TGE END IS NOT YET. The chapter in verses 4-13 were NOT ABOUT THE END..........it was about the Disciples lives.

John 17 is one of the most profound chapters in the Bible. It shows us Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest. Let me point out some of the verses that you overlook.

Jn. 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11 NIV

Jn. 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jn. 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Jn. 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

As I pointed out in post #47 and 48, the Old Testament tells us that God protects His people in place, where they are. God’s people are sometimes told to hide for a season. In John 17:11, Jesus asks God the Fatherr to “protect” His followers, but He says nothing about taking them out of this world. In John 17:15, Jesus says: “My prayer is not that you take them out of the world …” Jesus Christ flatly tells us that taking God’s people physically “out of the world” is NOT THE PLAN.

I believe that the prayer of Jesus that His disciples and followers be protected has two meanings. One, that God will guide them in temptation, helping them to avoid traps set by the Devil. The other is to protect them from persecution. In John 17:14, Jesus says, “the world has hated them.” In both verses 14 and 16, Jesus says that His people are not of the world. The worldly cannot be expected to understand them, one of the reasons God’s people are persecuted.

Again, Jesus has told us that removing His followers from the earth is NOT THE PLAN, at least not until the time of the Final Judgment.

 

[Fisherking]

I mention L.S. Chafer, one of the most influential Dispensationalists of the 20th Century and you say you “don’t know the guy.” Really? When I mention Augustine, many Protestants say, “I don’t care what he thinks!” Yet the theology they were taught, and believe, largely goes back to Augustine, whether they know it or not.

While we are talking about the Olivet discourse, here is one of the crucial verses:

I am taught by the holy spirit, I do not rely on men to teach me anything per se, only if the holy spirit leads me to read something, never read a left behind book either, the bible is where its at, I don't even do tags, its a waste of time, it is just Satan trying to divide us. TRUTH IS TRUTH, the truth is there will indeed be a pre tribulation rapture (pre 70th week rapture) and there will be a 70th week, and there will be a 1000 year reign, have at it with name tags. that's not my style per se.

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 34:31 NIV

Fisherking, I take it that you assume that the angels collect Christians and take them to heaven. Notice that the verse doesn’t say where they are being taken. If the whole passage is about the Second Coming, then Jesus has returned to the Mount of Olives. Why would angels take the followers of Jesus to heaven if He has returned bodily to the Mount of Olives? Maybe angels take Christians to where Jesus is. Revelation says there will be a Millenium before the Final Judgment. Perhaps Jesus will summon His followers, tell them what He wants them to do, and return them to where they were.

Well, you would be in error, that is the 2nd coming, and the Gathering of the "Elect" there can be taken in two ways, the Angels gathers the pre trib. raptured church from the four corners of heaven to return with Jesus as hos Army as shown in Rev. 19, or its the elect Jews (this is my assumption, used to be the former) are gathered from the four winds/four corners of heaven, just means from every direction, it God lingo. They will be protected in the Petra/Bozrah area mostly, the 2/3 who refused to repent will perish or die, the 1/3 (5 million) will be gathered from the four corners, the 2nd coming is about the Jewish 1000 year reign as led by Jesus (Kingdom Age), heck the Church will not even be here, read Rev. 20:4 it specifically tells us that ONLY THOSE Christian Gentile Martyrs who REFISED the Mark of the Beast will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. How many Glorious Bodied Men will God/Jesus need on earth to help him rule? Not billions for sure, God is already all powerful and all knowing, this is why only those killed by the Beast will remain as a testimony unto their faith, the rest of the church, 1-2 billion people, will not remain on earth where we would have nothing to do, that is not God's ways, that is called being idle. We are IMHO, going to work on New Jerusalem for those 1000 years, THAT IS WHY........as New Jerusalem descends it is called the Bride of Christ, we are in it !! That is an educated hunch.

The Rapture is in verses 36-51, as in the days of Noah, they will be marrying, partying, eating & feasting, then the flood hit...........The Rapture hits and the Boat is us going to be with Jesus, the RAINS is they are in the 70th week, the floods come later, not on the first day, BUT their fates are sealed. The ONE will be TAKEN and ONE will be LEFT is a 50% ratio right? How many of the virgin brides make the wedding call? Out of 10, only 5 made the wedding call (50%). Jesus came for the Jews first, so he explained their overall plight first, then his brides plight, which his disciples will be a part of, but it will be made up of 95% Gentiles, not Jews.

You get some things like the 1000 year reign correct, what you are missing is just like you and I can have DIFFERENT CALLINGS, so does God have a different calling for Israel (Jews) and the Church (mostly Gentiles). There were called to birth the Messiah, but God knew they could never really take the Gospel unto all the world, so he let Gentiles evangelize Gentiles, and God blinded Israel who rejected their Messiah, but ONLY UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles (Church Age) be come in, only after the Pre Trib. Rapture will God call them to repentance as a Nation, thus He blinded them IN PART, as a Nation, but not as individuals, of course, He has to call every man because God would not that any man should perish. After the rapture God sends Elijah and imho, Moses at the 1335 Blessing to call Israel unto repentance. Then after they repent a Jewish High Priest gone rogue, like Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes will FORBID Jesus worship (TAKE AWAY.....THE SACRIFICE) and cheekily place an IMAGE of the E.U. President up in the temple (AoD) But why the E.U. resident? because the AGREEMENT (Covenant) is simply this, Israel will join the European Union. That kicks it all off, they "give God's land away", basically and Hos anger sets off the 70th week penance, and the Rapture of the church who were not on earth for the other 69 weeks, God is very symmetrical, if we just follow along. Thus this gives the Jews who repented 30 days to flee Judea before the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth conquering at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290. This in when the AC heals the Mortal Head Wound (Rome as defeated by the Church) and THE BEAST arises again.

Each number is that many days until ALL THESE WONDERS END.........in Daniel 12:7 the Man in Linen or Jesus pre incarnate, tells Daniel this by answering the Angels question in Dan. 12:6 but then Daniel asks the same question in Dan. 12:8 days when will ALL THESE THINGS END (Same question, he is referring to Daniel 11:36-45 and even Daniel 12:1-2). So, all of the numbers have the exact same fulcrum point, the 2nd coming which we now know for sure will end the Beasts life (END ALL THESE WONDERS/THINGS).

 

[Dale]

I am taught by the holy spirit, I do not rely on men to teach me anything per se, only if the holy spirit leads me to read something, never read a left behind book either, the bible is where its at, I don't even do tags, its a waste of time, it is just Satan trying to divide us. TRUTH IS TRUTH, the truth is there will indeed be a pre tribulation rapture (pre 70th week rapture) and there will be a 70th week, and there will be a 1000 year reign, have at it with name tags. that's not my style per se.


Well, you would be in error, that is the 2nd coming, and the Gathering of the "Elect" there can be taken in two ways, the Angels gathers the pre trib. raptured church from the four corners of heaven to return with Jesus as hos Army as shown in Rev. 19, or its the elect Jews (this is my assumption, used to be the former) are gathered from the four winds/four corners of heaven, just means from every direction, it God lingo. They will be protected in the Petra/Bozrah area mostly, the 2/3 who refused to repent will perish or die, the 1/3 (5 million) will be gathered from the four corners, the 2nd coming is about the Jewish 1000 year reign as led by Jesus (Kingdom Age), heck the Church will not even be here, read Rev. 20:4 it specifically tells us that ONLY THOSE Christian Gentile Martyrs who REFISED the Mark of the Beast will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. How many Glorious Bodied Men will God/Jesus need on earth to help him rule? Not billions for sure, God is already all powerful and all knowing, this is why only those killed by the Beast will remain as a testimony unto their faith, the rest of the church, 1-2 billion people, will not remain on earth where we would have nothing to do, that is not God's ways, that is called being idle. We are IMHO, going to work on New Jerusalem for those 1000 years, THAT IS WHY........as New Jerusalem descends it is called the Bride of Christ, we are in it !! That is an educated hunch.

The Rapture is in verses 36-51, as in the days of Noah, they will be marrying, partying, eating & feasting, then the flood hit...........The Rapture hits and the Boat is us going to be with Jesus, the RAINS is they are in the 70th week, the floods come later, not on the first day, BUT their fates are sealed. The ONE will be TAKEN and ONE will be LEFT is a 50% ratio right? How many of the virgin brides make the wedding call? Out of 10, only 5 made the wedding call (50%). Jesus came for the Jews first, so he explained their overall plight first, then his brides plight, which his disciples will be a part of, but it will be made up of 95% Gentiles, not Jews.

You get some things like the 1000 year reign correct, what you are missing is just like you and I can have DIFFERENT CALLINGS, so does God have a different calling for Israel (Jews) and the Church (mostly Gentiles). There were called to birth the Messiah, but God knew they could never really take the Gospel unto all the world, so he let Gentiles evangelize Gentiles, and God blinded Israel who rejected their Messiah, but ONLY UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles (Church Age) be come in, only after the Pre Trib. Rapture will God call them to repentance as a Nation, thus He blinded them IN PART, as a Nation, but not as individuals, of course, He has to call every man because God would not that any man should perish. After the rapture God sends Elijah and imho, Moses at the 1335 Blessing to call Israel unto repentance. Then after they repent a Jewish High Priest gone rogue, like Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes will FORBID Jesus worship (TAKE AWAY.....THE SACRIFICE) and cheekily place an IMAGE of the E.U. President up in the temple (AoD) But why the E.U. resident? because the AGREEMENT (Covenant) is simply this, Israel will join the European Union. That kicks it all off, they "give God's land away", basically and Hos anger sets off the 70th week penance, and the Rapture of the church who were not on earth for the other 69 weeks, God is very symmetrical, if we just follow along. Thus this gives the Jews who repented 30 days to flee Judea before the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth conquering at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290. This in when the AC heals the Mortal Head Wound (Rome as defeated by the Church) and THE BEAST arises again.

Each number is that many days until ALL THESE WONDERS END.........in Daniel 12:7 the Man in Linen or Jesus pre incarnate, tells Daniel this by answering the Angels question in Dan. 12:6 but then Daniel asks the same question in Dan. 12:8 days when will ALL THESE THINGS END (Same question, he is referring to Daniel 11:36-45 and even Daniel 12:1-2). So, all of the numbers have the exact same fulcrum point, the 2nd coming which we now know for sure will end the Beasts life (END ALL THESE WONDERS/THINGS).

Fisherking: “I am taught by the holy spirit, I do not rely on men to teach me anything per se …”

An outrageous claim.

Fisherking: “The Rapture hits and the Boat is us going to be with Jesus, the RAINS is they are in the 70th week, the floods come later, not on the first day, BUT their fates are sealed. The ONE will be TAKEN and ONE will be LEFT is a 50% ratio right? How many of the virgin brides make the wedding call? Out of 10, only 5 made the wedding call (50%). Jesus came for the Jews first, so he explained their overall plight first, then his brides plight, which his disciples will be a part of, but it will be made up of 95% Gentiles, not Jews.”

Exact numbers of the saved are not known to us. It was never the purpose of the Scripture to give numbers or percentages of the saved.

Fisherking: “Rev. 20:4 it specifically tells us that ONLY THOSE Christian Gentile Martyrs who REFISED the Mark of the Beast will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years”

You are misquoting Revelation 20:4. The verse makes no distinction between Jewish martyrs and Gentile martyrs, you are adding words that are not there.

I quoted Jesus and you ignored that quote, so apparently you have no answer.