They Call It Roman

[tadoflamb]

No, we are visible. You see us right here.

As you well know, you can't always believe what you read on the internet.

 

[mont974x4]

who said that?

Jay (whistling the tune do you hear what I hear)

 

[TraderJack]

All the ones not united in like mind like St. Paul says.

Like Roman Catholics are of "one mind". The evidence to the contrary is on these threads every single day.

Here's a simple way to test that theory.

The Church is one. failed.

Passed.
The Church is One in Christ, which is that building of living stones that Paul desribed as "The Church of Christ", with those living stones being the genuine believers in Christ Jesus.

Rome makes the fatal mistake of confusing it's heirarchy with "the Church", when it is not.

The Church is holy. pass.

We, that is all genuine believers in Christ Jesus are Holy because Christ is Holy.

The Church is Catholic. failed.

Passed. We are the True Catholic Church, which is comprised of the whole/universal/katholikos/catholic, congregation of genuine believers in Christ, while Rome is a usurper, having gone astray from the truth of the Gospel during the dark ages, and formed it's own separate religion.

The Church is apostolic. failed.

Passed.

We, that is, the True Catholic Church, which is comprised of the whole/universal/katholikos/catholic, congregation of genuine believers in Christ, that building of living stones described by Paul are "Apostolic", who follow the Apostolic Tradition recorded and preserved in the Sacred Scriptures, and are ordained by God as the successors of the Apostles.

I have nothing against freedom. Otherwise we wouldn't be free to post rebutalls.

Very well, then pass that on to your brethren so they don't get so upset and complain when we scrutinize, test, challenge, expose and oppose many of the claims of the Roman church.

Now, if Rome will renounce the papacy, "unam sanctum", Lateran IV, Trent, Vatican I & II, renounce the Marian dogmas, auricular confession and penance, purgatory, indulgences, praying to Mary and the spirits of the departed and the entire sacerdotal sacramentalist system of salvation, then we can discuss letting the Roman church back into the fold.



No, in reality we, whom you call "protestants" are the True Catholic Church, along with all genuine believers in Christ, the Roman religion is not "The Catholic Church" at all, it is a usurper.

I just don't know how to respond to this rubbish.

Those are facts.

BTW we do belive that non-catholics are christians

Some Romans do, some don't. Doesn't matter really. We have no need of Rome's approval whatsoever.

and part of the invisible church.

We are not "invisible". We are highly visible, being manifested in local congregations and synods, and wherever two or more are gathered in Christ's name, as Jesus said, and as the Church was manifested from the beginning.

 

[TraderJack]

As you well know, you can't always believe what you read on the internet.

And that is exactly why we do not believe the cut and pasted snippets from various ECFs and other sources that leave massive parts out that prove Rome's claims to be bogus.

 

[TraderJack]

To Trader Jack,
how do you see the Orthodox Church?

While there are some points of disagreement, they are on matters which are non-essential to salvation and we are free to debate those issues, vigorously if so desired, I find the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox congregation to trust in Christ's Atonement exclusively for their Redemption, and thus embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I do Roman Catholics who trust exclusively in Christ's Atonement for their Redemption as brothers and sisters.

You see, most of my Roman antagonists make the fatal mistake of confusing opposition to specific, dogmas doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic religion as is taught and defined by it's heirarchy, as an opposition to them personally, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[TraderJack]

There is only one Catholic Church and everyone knows it's base of operations. Vatican Hill.

Wrong again.

The base of operations for Christ's Church is nowhere near Rome. Never has been and never will be.

It is where Christ is, and where there is a local manifestation of genuine belivers in Christ who comprise the "building of living stones".

 

[TraderJack]

As I said, the redefining of words. Rome adopted the catholic adjective in order to make it a noun and applied it to themselves.


The roman church did not exist in the beginning, no matter how many times rome rewrites history to fit its appetite for power.

Proverbs 2;

6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by lionroar0
There is only one Catholic Church and everyone knows it's base of operations. Vatican Hill.

Yes and most others are aware the Emperor of Roman catholicism resides in Italy at Fort Vatican.

LLOL [lives in Texas and exclaims "remember the Alamo!"]

 

[TraderJack]

ANd yet people disagree on when the Roman Church started.


I wonder why?

Because Rome has claimed one thing that does not match the facts, just so many of it's claims.

That's why.

 

[TraderJack]

Yes and most others are aware the Emperor of Roman catholicism resides in Italy at Fort Vatican.

LLOL [lives in Texas and exclaims "remember the Alamo!"]

Heck, before the forgeries were exposed, Roman popes had conned the Carolingian kings out of territory that became the "Papal States" using the fraudulent forgery, "The Donation of Constantine", especially claiming territory that was in the hands of the Byzantines in the 9th century in southeastern Italy.

 

[TraderJack]

Lots of peole want to be Catholic with a Capital "C" but then they deny CC.

No, we deny the Roman Catholic church is "THE Catholic Church" and there is a universe of difference that most Romans miss.

 

[TraderJack]

Since, however, everyone seems to agree that all parties are Christian...and that the word "Roman" is appropriate when speaking of the Church overseen by the Pope...

why don't we just 'bury the hatchet' on this pointless sparring?

I agree, I see this as less of a doctrine thread and more of an etiquette thread.

Now that those of you of the Roman persuasion have accepted the truth of the appropriate use of "Roman", "Romans", etc, please pass it on to your brethren so they won't be getting upset over nothing.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rhamiel]

Now that those of you of the Roman persuasion have accepted the truth of the appropriate use of "Roman", "Romans", etc, please pass it on to your brethren so they won't be getting upset over nothing.

Roman Catholic, because it is Christian and under the pastorship of the Bishop of Rome

 

[Rick Otto]

LLOL [lives in Texas and exclaims "remember the Alamo!"

We tease each other about race at work all the time.
I said to Fernando one day "Remember the Alamo?", and he said,"Yeah, I remember takin' a leak on the Alamo."

 

[TraderJack]

Roman Catholic, because it is Christian

So it is claimed. There are some who have presented a different and contrary argument.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html

A few exerpts:

The Smalcald Articles

Article IV: Of the Papacy.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3] Hence it follows that all things which the Pope, from a power so false, mischievous, blasphemous, and arrogant, has done and undertaken. have been and still are purely diabolical affairs and transactions (with the exception of such things as pertain to the secular government, where God often permits much good to be effected for a people, even through a tyrant and [faithless] scoundrel) for the ruin of the entire holy [catholic or] Christian Church (so far as it is in his power) and for the destruction of the first and chief article concerning the redemption made through Jesus Christ.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] For all his bulls and books are extant, in which he roars like a lion (as the angel in Rev. 12 depicts him, [crying out] that no Christian can be saved unless he obeys him and is subject to him in all things that he wishes, that he says, and that he does. All of which amounts to nothing less than saying: Although you believe in Christ, and have in Him [alone] everything that is necessary to salvation, yet it is nothing and all in vain unless you regard [have and worship] me as your god, and be subject and obedient to me. And yet it is manifest that the holy Church has been without the Pope for at least more than five hundred years, and that even to the present day the churches of the Greeks and of many other languages neither have been nor are yet under the Pope. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5] Besides, as often remarked, it is a human figment which is not commanded, and is unnecessary and useless; for the holy Christian [or catholic] Church can exist very well without such a head, and it would certainly have remained better [purer, and its career would have been more prosperous] if such a head had not been raised up by the devil. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6] And the Papacy is also of no use in the Church, because it exercises no Christian office; and therefore it is necessary for the Church to continue and to exist without the Pope. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7] And supposing that the Pope would yield this point, so as not to be supreme by divine right or from Gods command, but that we must have [there must be elected] a [certain] head, to whom all the rest adhere [as their support] in order that the [concord and] unity of Christians may be preserved against sects and heretics, and that such a head were chosen by men, and that it were placed within the choice and power of men to change or remove this head, just as the Council of Constance adopted nearly this course with reference to the Popes, deposing three and electing a fourth; supposing, I say, that the Pope and See at Rome would yield and accept this (which, nevertheless, is impossible; for thus he would have to suffer his entire realm and estate to be overthrown and destroyed, with all his rights and books, a thing which, to speak in few words, he cannot do), nevertheless, even in this way Christianity would not be helped, but many more sects would arise than before. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8] For since men would have to be subject to this head, not from God's command, but from their personal good pleasure, it would easily and in a short time be despised, and at last retain no member; neither would it have to be forever confined to Rome or any other place, but it might be wherever and in whatever church God would grant a man fit for the [taking upon him such a great] office. Oh, the complicated and confused state of affairs [perplexity] that would result! [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9] Therefore the Church can never be better governed and preserved than if we all live under one head, Christ, and all the bishops equal in office (although they be unequal in gifts), be diligently joined in unity of doctrine, faith, Sacraments, prayer, and works of love, etc., as St. Jerome writes that the priests at Alexandria together and in common governed the churches, as did also the apostles, and afterwards all bishops throughout all Christendom, until the Pope raised his head above all. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10] This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11] This is, properly speaking to exalt himself above all that is called God as Paul says, 2 Thess. 2, 4. Even the Turks or the Tartars, great enemies of Christians as they are, do not do this, but they allow whoever wishes to believe in Christ, and take bodily tribute and obedience from Christians. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12] The Pope, however, prohibits this faith, saying that to be saved a person must obey him. This we are unwilling to do, even though on this account we must die in God s name. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13] This all proceeds from the fact that the Pope has wished to be called the supreme head of the Christian Church by divine right. Accordingly he had to make himself equal and superior to Christ, and had to cause himself to be proclaimed the head and then the lord of the Church, and finally of the whole world, and simply God on earth, until he has dared to issue commands even to the angels in heaven. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14] And when we distinguish the Pope's teaching from, or measure and hold it against, Holy Scripture, it is found [it appears plainly] that the Pope's teaching, where it is best, has been taken from the imperial and heathen law and treats of political matters and decisions or rights, as the Decretals show; furthermore, it teaches of ceremonies concerning churches, garments, food, persons and [similar] puerile, theatrical and comical things without measure, but in all these things nothing at all of Christ, faith, and the commandments of God. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lastly, it is nothing else than the devil himself, because above and against God he urges [and disseminates] his [papal] falsehoods concerning masses, purgatory, the monastic life, one's own works and [fictitious] divine worship (for this is the very Papacy [upon each of which the Papacy is altogether founded and is standing]), and condemns, murders and tortures all Christians who do not exalt and honor these abominations [of the Pope] above all things. Therefore, just as little as we can worship the devil himself as Lord and God, we can endure his apostle, the Pope, or Antichrist, in his rule as head or lord. For to lie and to kill, and to destroy body and soul eternally, that is wherein his papal government really consists, as I have very clearly shown in many books.

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and under the pastorship of the Bishop of Rome

It looks like Luther above presents a formitable argument for otherwise.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now that those of you of the Roman persuasion have accepted the truth of the appropriate use of "Roman", "Romans", etc, please pass it on to your brethren so they won't be getting upset over nothing.

Roman Catholic, because it is Christian and under the pastorship of the Bishop of Rome

Then how can he delegate power outside of Rome?
You really need to take a few lessons from the Orthodox me thinks.

LLOJ [proud member of the SS Elite]

 

[lionroar0]

No, we deny the Roman Catholic church is "THE Catholic Church" and there is a universe of difference that most Romans miss.

Congnitve dissonance.

Peace

 

[Rhamiel]

LLOJ

Then how can he delegate power outside of Rome?
You really need to take a few lessons from the Orthodox me thinks.

Because he is the first among equals

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ
Because he is the first among equals

Just don't put Paul in the "back-seat"

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are ill-minded any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting/streblousin <4761> (5719) as also the rest of Scriptures, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [reve 17:8, 11]

Reve 17:11 And the wild-beast which was, and not is, and it/he an-eighth is, and out of the seven it/he is, and into destruction/apwleian <684> is going away.

 

[mont974x4]

LLOJ
Because he is the first among equals

Scripture?