They Call It Roman

[Rhamiel]

St. Paul is a great saint, the Holy Spirit used him to write most of the epistles.

 

[Rhamiel]

ok mont974x4
"You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church"

 

[mont974x4]

No, I want an actual verse that says pete is first among equals. I already know the rcc's twisting of the meaning of that verse.

 

[TraderJack]

ok mont974x4
"You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church"

Augustine of blessed memory is representative of the overwhelming consensus of the Early Church Fathers, who did not interpret the snippet Rome twists, nor invested any supreme authority in the popes of Rome.

Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, ‘To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Mt 16:19). After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged preeminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to all----St. Augustine, Sermon 295

Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.----St. Augustine, Sermon 229

Again, Augustine is representative of the overwhelming consensus of the Church Fathers, in that Peter was symbolic of the church, and that the "keys" were given to the entire Church, and that the Church is not built upon the person of Peter, and especially not Roman popes, but that the Church is built on Christ, The Rock.

 

[TraderJack]

St. Paul is a great saint, the Holy Spirit used him to write most of the epistles.

2 Corinthians 11:

5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.

Was Paul lying there?

 

[Rhamiel]

5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.

no St.Paul was not lying, he also said he was chief of the sinners. We all have differant vocations, this does not make one "better" then the other, we all have a job to do, the Bishop of Rome has the job to act as a leader the other Bishops, kind of like a big brother (no orwell joke please).

 

[mont974x4]

no St.Paul was not lying, he also said he was chief of the sinners. We all have differant vocations, this does not make one "better" then the other, we all have a job to do, the Bishop of Rome has the job to act as a leader the other Bishops, kind of like a big brother (no orwell joke please).

You said no one is better but then made one better.


All without Scriptural backing in in defiance of your beloved ecf's.

 

[mont974x4]

BTW, just one orwell comment......hillary or obama will be larger step towards "1984" than rome has made in quite awhile.

 

[TraderJack]

no St.Paul was not lying, he also said he was chief of the sinners.

Different contexts. Totally irrelevant.

We all have differant vocations, this does not make one "better" then the other, we all have a job to do, the Bishop of Rome has the job to act as a leader the other Bishops, kind of like a big brother (no orwell joke please).

We know that is the Roman theory, but it is not supported by the Truth of Scripture or by the early Church Tradition.

It is nothing but a false claim made by Rome.

 

[Rhamiel]

You said no one is better but then made one better.

no the pope is not better, he has a differant job, you want the bible to back it up? ok, St.Paul talks about how we are all one Body but many parts, if all was an ear where would the sense of taste be? stuff like that.

 

[mont974x4]

no the pope is not better, he has a differant job, you want the bible to back it up? ok, St.Paul talks about how we are all one Body but many parts, if all was an ear where would the sense of taste be? stuff like that.

but the ear is no better than the tongue


and Christ is the head...popes need not apply

 

[TraderJack]

BTW, just one orwell comment......hillary or obama will be larger step towards "1984" than rome has made in quite awhile.

I agree with that for sure.

Rome was stripped of it's power by the Reformation.

But Satan and his minions are always working, so there are others we have to deal with.

 

[TraderJack]

no the pope is not better, he has a differant job, you want the bible to back it up? ok, St.Paul talks about how we are all one Body but many parts, if all was an ear where would the sense of taste be? stuff like that.

And in context, has nothing to do with the fallacious claims of papal supremacy made by Rome.

 

[Rhamiel]

but the ear is no better than the tongue


and Christ is the head...popes need not apply

and the Pope is not better then the other Bishops, he just has differant responsibilities
we know Christ is the head, the Pope is His representitive on Earth.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=TraderJack;Rome was stripped of it's power by the Reformation.

You might revise your opinion if you read "Swarms of Locusts" by Michael Bunker.

Re 13:3 - Show Context And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You might revise your opinion if you read "Swarms of Locusts" by Michael Bunker.

Re 13:3 - Show Context And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Hey RO. I see they moved this out the the GT "Kitchen" lol.

Btw, did ya notice these 2 threads over on the OBOB board concerning the Jesuits?

http://christianforums.com/t1675171-what-will-become-of-the-jesuits.html

http://christianforums.com/t6912376...ear-their-acceptance-of-church-teachings.html

 

[Rick Otto]

Unity of the faith.

 

[Rhamiel]

so when we agree with the Church you say " you don't know what you are talking about, you just blindly follow the Pope" and if we debate among ourselves you show that as a lack of unity?

this is unbelievable, to be Catholic there are a few doctrines you have to believe, all upstanding Catholics agree on this, but there are a lot of things that we argue and debate about, the Church does not try to tell you everything, she gives her members intelectual freedom, blah, I think I am done with this thread

 

[sunlover1]

so when we agree with the Church you say " you don't know what you are talking about, you just blindly follow the Pope" and if we debate among ourselves you show that as a lack of unity?

this is unbelievable, to be Catholic there are a few doctrines you have to believe, all upstanding Catholics agree on this, but there are a lot of things that we argue and debate about, the Church does not try to tell you everything, she gives her members intelectual freedom, blah, I think I am done with this thread

But most people would never in a million years admit
what you just said Rham.
That's why you're such a gem. It's the honesty and
integrity, that's beauty to my eyes !!!

And that's what gets others indignant.
They see that 'halftruth' and want to expose it.
It's wrong and bad, and mostly it's foolish, becaue
we then serve soemthing we dont want to eat
ourselves, sow something we will end up reaping.

Hope that makes sense.



(Usually it's "WE" have the FULL truth, you dont, type
of stuff, and so they cant say what you just said,
without seeming to eat crow...just pride, nothing
denominational about that, it's in every sect for sure)

 

[Albion]

so when we agree with the Church you say " you don't know what you are talking about, you just blindly follow the Pope" and if we debate among ourselves you show that as a lack of unity?

this is unbelievable, to be Catholic there are a few doctrines you have to believe, all upstanding Catholics agree on this, but there are a lot of things that we argue and debate about, the Church does not try to tell you everything, she gives her members intelectual freedom, blah, I think I am done with this thread

It's an interesting point you make here, Rhamiel. I've thought about it, and what I have come up with is this--

While you may be right, in fact probably are right, there are few Catholics on these forums who approach Catholic teachings in that way. You seem to me to be rather alone in your view.

They almost always are totally unwilling to admit to ANY gray areas, any flexibility, and possibilities of seeing things more than one way. They normally state the usual Catholic position as though everyone reading it is supposed automatically to react by saying, "If that is what you say, it must be so." When pressed, they always go immediately to either the Catechism, the Catholic Encyclopedia, some Catholic author, heroes of the faith, or something else from their own perspective--as thought this is going to prove anything to a non-churchmember.

IF more Catholics posting here were willing to admit to the flexibility that you say is the actual position of your Church, we'd have better discussions and you wouldn't wind up feeling so hardpressed. But when the non-Catholic is led to think that there is one and only one RCC position, he naturally is going to consider it a contradiction when the logic that is used to support it here fails.

And the reason for this knee-jerk mentality on the part of many Catholics, which you say is not warranted, is that many of them feel that they're here to defend their church against anticipated attacks rather than to discuss issues. Hardly anyone else who frequents these forums comes in with that attitude, which can be seen in the fact that many don't sport any denominational tag at all, they don't reveal their church affiliation, and certainly do not call themselves by such names as "Catholic X," or "_____the Catholic," yet just look at how common that is. That's the first message they make to any reader--here's my church affiliation.